Windows Goes Multi-Touch

[DMann]

don't you think changing the symbols on a 18 year old font would cause problems? What would happen when people wanted to transfer their work into the newer version? You should read this... [Wired]

Read that........... As if MS would care about one or two characters needing editing when users transfer work - this is a lame excuse - swapping the Star of David for the triangle would eliminate the problem, and would only be a minimal editing inconvenience to anyone who needs to transfer work. Besides, by Microsoft admitting that they did consider altering the Wingdings font in the early 1990s, after concerns over the perceived anti-Semitic message first surfaced, they were aware of this and most certainly would have crossed referenced when creating Webdings.

Yes, but what about the supposed progress of an Apple "tablet"? Obviously that would require touching the screen, would it not?

For all we know, a tablet too may have a track pad area to do the touching upon.

 

[Syrus28]

Read that........... As if MS would care about one or two characters needing editing when users transfer work - this is a lame excuse - swapping the Star of David for the triangle would eliminate the problem, and would only be a minimal editing inconvenience to anyone who needs to transfer work. Besides, by Microsoft admitting that they did consider altering the Wingdings font in the early 1990s, after concerns over the perceived anti-Semitic message first surfaced, they were aware of this and most certainly would have crossed referenced when creating Webdings.

Obviously it did not generate enough concern for Microsoft to put in the effort to change it. Whether is was or not is not up for debate, as it still exists, and this is the 1st time I've ever head about it.

For all we know, a tablet too may have a track pad area to do the touching upon.

How would it type?

Including a keyboard, a trackpad and a non-touch sensitive screen does not constitute a tablet, my friend. Its called a laptop.

 

[Chairman Plow]

>We'll sell 270m PCs a year, and Apple will sell 10m. Apple is fantastically successful, and so are we.

Got to love this guy. Windows 7... To be released soon.

Er... did Bill pull him to the side afterwards and whisper "dude, we don't actually sell PCs"?

 

[DMann]

Obviously it did not generate enough concern for Microsoft to put in the effort to change it. Whether is was or not is not up for debate, as it still exists, and this is the 1st time I've ever head about it.

Yes, this is obvious.

How would it type?

Including a keyboard, a trackpad and a non-touch sensitive screen does not constitute a tablet, my friend. Its called a laptop.

No, I said, 'track pad area' - a small area designated for multi-touch functionality. This would most likely be optional, as the tablet itself would have full multi-touch capabilities. They keyboard would be virtual, and, no, it would not have the form factor of a current laptop.

 

[kmarty009]

If it was Apple, everyone would say it was the greatest, most revolutionary development since the Macintosh...

Including me ;-)

Funny how it has 229 negatives and only 96 postives... If Apple was releasing a preview of this, then those stats would be reversed. However, I was lucky enough to actually see a demo of there touch panel (Microsoft's). I am giving them props, it was really nice.... Even if it was based on Vista at that time. Honestly, I think Microsoft is going to beat Apple at getting this to the market first. Not often do I say Microsoft has something impressive, but this certainly was!

 

[ErikCLDR]

There's a lot in Windows 7, and our goal's got to be, with our hardware partners, to produce fantastic PCs. ... We'll sell 270m PCs a year, and Apple will sell 10m. Apple is fantastically successful, and so are we.

And then Steve Ballmer screamed in excitement....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvsboPUjrGc&feature=related

 

[Syrus28]

No, I said, 'track pad area' - a small area designated for multi-touch functionality. This would most likely be optional, as the tablet itself would have full multi-touch capabilities. They keyboard would be virtual, and, no, it would not have the form factor of a current laptop.

Ok, I'm confused...

I think it is funny how Microsoft reveals this and so many people complain about how useless it is and how no one cares.

Yet go to some other threads, before the Air came out for sure, and everyone is talking about a tablet and multi-touch on their laptops.

Hah.

Big difference - MS involves blocking/touching the screen and getting arm fatigue while Apple's Multi-Touch pad allows you to do the same without smudging/blocking the screen and getting arm fatigue.

Yes, but what about the supposed progress of an Apple "tablet"? Obviously that would require touching the screen, would it not?

No, I said, 'track pad area' - a small area designated for multi-touch functionality. This would most likely be optional, as the tablet itself would have full multi-touch capabilities. They keyboard would be virtual, and, no, it would not have the form factor of a current laptop.

So, your saying it will have full touchscreen capability , which involves touching/blocking the screen -- Just like Microsoft's demo.

 

[PeterC-7]

270 m PC's?

"We'll sell 270m PCs a year, and Apple will sell 10m." Steve Ballmer

Reality distortion zone: MS doesn't sell PC's. It sells software and the MS software certainly doesn't sell them. Quote should read: "We'll sell zero PCs a year, and Apple will sell 10m."

 

[Syrus28]

"We'll sell 270m PCs a year, and Apple will sell 10m." Steve Ballmer

Reality distortion zone: MS doesn't sell PC's. It sells software and the MS software certainly doesn't sell them. Quote should read: "We'll sell zero PCs a year, and Apple will sell 10m."

Well to be fair, his wording was a bit off. However, the computer wouldn't be of much use without Windows on it... People are buying the computer with the anticipation (either good or bad) of running Windows. That, essentially, is selling it.

 

[DMann]

So, your saying it will have full touchscreen capability , which involves touching/blocking the screen -- Just like Microsoft's demo.

No, because a tablet can be set down on a table or lap, minimizing the arm fatigue. By using the track pad area and touching the screen, only when necessary, this minimizes the blocking of the screen.

 

[Syrus28]

No, because a tablet can be set down on a table or lap, minimizing the arm fatigue. By using the track pad area and touching the screen, only when necessary, this minimizes the blocking of the screen.

Who is to say that the touch capabilities of Windows 7 wouldn't be on a tablet? This was, a demo after all.

I think we're looking at 2 different sides to this. Im looking at the software implementation at it, which I believe is what Microsoft seems to be showing off. The specialized hardware would come at a later point. Looking this way, what would be the difference between Microsoft's implementation and the supposed Apple implementation?

 

[DMann]

Who is to say that the touch capabilities of Windows 7 wouldn't be on a tablet? This was, a demo after all.

I think we're looking at 2 different sides to this. Im looking at the software implementation at it, which I believe is what Microsoft seems to be showing off. The specialized hardware would come at a later point. Looking this way, what would be the difference between Microsoft's implementation and the supposed Apple implementation?

Implementation is the key difference here. By Apple implementing Multi-Touch using a Multi-Touch pad, they have eliminated the problems of fatigue and visual interference on a larger laptop screen. By implementing Multi-Touch on a small hand held device, such as an iPhone of iPod touch, using Capacitive touch technology (instead of the laggier Resistive touch used in HTC Win Mobile phones) these Capacitive devices are highly responsive, and easy to operate. Microsoft's implementation of this tech in 'Surface' leaves much to be desired. By the time MS releases Windows 7, Capacitive touch screen technology will have evolved to the next level, where contact with the screen will be rendered unnecessary as the electronic field of the hand in close proximity will exhibit enough capacitance to control items on the screen. Windows, however, is planning to utilize resistive touch technology for their upcoming projects.

 

[inkswamp]

Im sure they have small teams dedicated to finding out exactly what the competitor is doing. It would be stupid not to.

That's not what I'm saying.

You think Steve or Bill Gates dont care about having honours of releasing x technology first?? Theyre Tech companies. And theyre CEO who are sure to have Massive Ego's. Theres a small matter of pride and esteem at stake. These are basic human traits and trust, they care and would prefer to be out first. Which company (or person for that matter) would be content to be trailing and not leading? Certainly not leading companies like Apple or Microsoft.

Again, that's not what I'm saying. What I said is that I really doubt Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer are aware of any rumored product releases at WWDC. I doubt if they care. There very well may be people within MS tasked with keeping track of that kind of thing, but I have serious doubts that information like that makes its way that far up the ladder.

 

[Syrus28]

Implementation is the key difference here. By Apple implementing Multi-Touch using a Multi-Touch pad, they have eliminated the problems of fatigue and visual interference on a larger laptop screen. By implementing Multi-Touch on a small hand held device, such as an iPhone of iPod touch, using Capacitive touch technology (instead of the laggier Resistive touch used in HTC Win Mobile phones) these Capacitive devices are highly responsive, and easy to operate. Microsoft's implementation of this tech in 'Surface' leaves much to be desired. By the time MS releases Windows 7, Capacitive touch screen technology will have evolved to the next level, where contact with the screen will be rendered unnecessary as the electronic field of the hand in close proximity will exhibit enough capacitance to control items on the screen. Windows, however, is planning to utilize resistive touch technology for their upcoming projects.

You must have a crystal ball or something...

 

[goosnarrggh]

By implementing Multi-Touch on a small hand held device, such as an iPhone of iPod touch, using Capacitive touch technology (instead of the laggier Resistive touch used in HTC Win Mobile phones) these Capacitive devices are highly responsive, and easy to operate.

Got a reference for that? I'd very much like to see evidence that the lagginess in Microsoft's demo is directly attributable to the physical process by which the gestures are converted from physical motions to electrical impulses, and not due to the much more likely possibility of inefficient computational algorithms being used to react to the gestures.

As far as this issue goes, having worked on an in-house software application which uses touch screens for about a year now, I can attest that in switching between various types of COTS (commercial, off-the-shelf) physical transducers for the touch screen (resistive, capacitive, surface accoustive wave, and most recently infrared) the only thing that had to change in most cases was was the kernal driver. All the application software remained identical.

And with the exception of the infrared screen, the application software's responsiveness was virtually identical in every case. The infrared screen we tried had very poor response to dragging gestures; we didn't sample any similar offerings, so I don't know if it was ultimately a problem with infrared transducers in general, or just with this particular type. The resistive touch screen was rejected because of problems with haziness in the transducer film interfering with image quality. The capacitive touch screen was rejected because it became totally useless in the presence of high-power RF fields which are typical for our application.

 

[Neuro]

Adding to my quick post earlier - I can see widespread use of multi-touch displays as a huge new area for health & safety court cases. If people are getting time off work for mouse RSI, imagine how much worse it could be!

All that prolonged leaning forward to a touch monitor and even bending to a table device.

Multi-touch = bad back + arm strain

 

[DMann]

Got a reference for that? I'd very much like to see evidence that the lagginess in Microsoft's demo is directly attributable to the physical process by which the gestures are converted from physical motions to electrical impulses, and not due to the much more likely possibility of inefficient computational algorithms being used to react to the gestures.

Very likely the cause, I do agree, thank you.

 

[Chris Stroud]

I think you guys are crazy. Apple definitely has their foot in the door with multi-touch and they have most of the research done towards providing a tablet. They just need to wait for the MacBook Air to settle down a little. It wouldn't make sense to release the worlds thinest Laptop, then release the worlds most feelable one right on top of it lol.

 

[Analog Kid]

Little known fact, but the Nazi V2s ran an embedded version of Linux. This knowledge was withheld from Hitler who insisted that all equipment run on a preproduction version of WinCE.

Huh? What? Are we back on topic now? Oh cool...

Got a reference for that? I'd very much like to see evidence that the lagginess in Microsoft's demo is directly attributable to the physical process by which the gestures are converted from physical motions to electrical impulses, and not due to the much more likely possibility of inefficient computational algorithms being used to react to the gestures.

As far as this issue goes, having worked on an in-house software application which uses touch screens for about a year now, I can attest that in switching between various types of COTS (commercial, off-the-shelf) physical transducers for the touch screen (resistive, capacitive, surface accoustive wave, and most recently infrared) the only thing that had to change in most cases was was the kernal driver. All the application software remained identical.

And with the exception of the infrared screen, the application software's responsiveness was virtually identical in every case. The infrared screen we tried had very poor response to dragging gestures; we didn't sample any similar offerings, so I don't know if it was ultimately a problem with infrared transducers in general, or just with this particular type. The resistive touch screen was rejected because of problems with haziness in the transducer film interfering with image quality. The capacitive touch screen was rejected because it became totally useless in the presence of high-power RF fields which are typical for our application.

If I had to guess, infrared lagged because of the thermal capacity of whatever the finger was touching. Just a guess...

There would certainly need to be more than driver changes to go from the single touch to multitouch type devices, no? I thought resistive/capacitive could only handle one point of contact.

 

[DMann]

I think you guys are crazy. Apple definitely has their foot in the door with multi-touch and they have most of the research done towards providing a tablet. They just need to wait for the MacBook Air to settle down a little. It wouldn't make sense to release the worlds thinest Laptop, then release the worlds most feelable one right on top of it lol.

True, but the market for thin laptops would not likely be cannibalized by the introduction of a tablet. Doing so would likely attract new sectors into the market, such as medical lab workers, hospital workers, photographers, and any object/image oriented professionals who need direct input and image manipulation.

 

[Analog Kid]

True, but the market for thin laptops would not likely be cannibalized by the introduction of a tablet. Doing so would likely attract new sectors into the market, such as medical lab workers, hospital workers, photographers, and any object/image oriented professionals who need direct input and image manipulation.

It would cannibalize the Air most of all. Yes, it might also bring in some verticals, but it would also give another thin-and-light option, now with touch. Photographers are the perfect example of people who would prefer a tablet but are probably settling for an Air right now.

 

[nrecob]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

And the people are supposed to wait till 2010 for THAT?

Anything short of Minority Report is a disappointment....

Sorry Windoze fanbois.....

 

[Chris Stroud]

True, but the market for thin laptops would not likely be cannibalized by the introduction of a tablet. Doing so would likely attract new sectors into the market, such as medical lab workers, hospital workers, photographers, and any object/image oriented professionals who need direct input and image manipulation.

Yes I think it would murder the Air. Intel put too much work into that custom processor for Apple to weaken that relationship by saying "oh well, this is better thanks anyway" If that makes any sense (it's getting late lol)

It would cannibalize the Air most of all. Yes, it might also bring in some verticals, but it would also give another thin-and-light option, now with touch. Photographers are the perfect example of people who would prefer a tablet but are probably settling for an Air right now.

Glad to see someone agrees with me

 

[DMann]

It would cannibalize the Air most of all. Yes, it might also bring in some verticals, but it would also give another thin-and-light option, now with touch. Photographers are the perfect example of people who would prefer a tablet but are probably settling for an Air right now.

Yes I think it would murder the Air. Intel put too much work into that custom processor for Apple to weaken that relationship by saying "oh well, this is better thanks anyway"

Excellent points, I do agree.

 

[AidenShaw]

custom processor? LOL

Intel put too much work into that custom processor ...

HaHa.

It's a standard processor (actually, an older 65nm CPU) placed into a standard package being designed for a new piece of silicon.

The only work was the "custom soldering" to connect the old CPU to the pins on the new package.

Had Apple actually had Intel create a custom processor, the car analogies for the Mac Book Cube Air would be "costs as much as a BMW"!

Excellent points, I do agree.

How not surprising....