Windows Goes Multi-Touch

[inkswamp]

That's WHY Ball-Gate announced the touch aspect of Windows 7 already, because they fear Apple is going to release a tablet/touchOS at WWDC and they want to ride the coattails. Remember when Apple was supposed to release a tablet/phone and just before MacWorld, Microsoft announced the UMPC concept? They wanted to appear as being first and that Apple had stolen their idea.

Seriously, do you really think Ballmer and Gates actually care about beating Apple to the punch on anything? The way some of you talk, you'd think Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer do nothing but sit around scheming over how they're going to one-up Apple, by golly.

These guys are the central figures of the most powerful software company on the planet. I'm sure they've got enough to keep them busy and don't give a rip what Apple's doing or how they're going to time things vs. possible announcements at WWDC.

 

[DMann]

May I ask, when is the last time you used Vista? You seem to be clinging onto old problems. If Vista was truly as bad as you make it out to be, 90% of new computers wouldn't be ordered with them. There are alternatives.

Yesterday, SP1. Still slower than XP, S-L-O-W boot time - way too bloated, period, UAC is pathetic, (yes, I am aware it can be disabled) a large number of apps which run on XP do not run properly on Vista - many compatibility issues. 90% of those 90% which have Vista pre-installed have been already well acclimated to having computer issues, and will thus put up with it. It is simply not true that consumers choose a PC because it has any incarnation of Windows on it - they do so to get on-line, buy what their friends and family already have, and to run software used at work. Incidentally, I do not recall seeing any lines outside of stores on the day Vista was released as we witness with OS X releases.

 

[arn]

Seriously, do you really think Ballmer and Gates actually care about beating Apple to the punch on anything? The way some of you talk, you'd think Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer do nothing but sit around scheming over how they're going to one-up Apple, by golly.

It has to bug them that Apple is the "darling" of the media with the iPhone and their multitouch etc... while MS is portrayed as the evil one.

I actually do think it would bother them. (well, maybe just Ballmer)

arn

 

[Abstract]

I agree.

Well I don't. It's earth shattering technology. It just happens to be useless on a typical laptop or desktop. Just keep that tech on tables and stuff, and I can see it being useful.

 

[ipedro]

While nice, do you really think that after creating a multi touch phone, that Apple will no longer create a conventional OS and go straight into a full-fledged multi-touch based OS? Thats a big jump.

Not at all. I think that OS 11 (?) will be very familiar to OS X users but will make extensive use of multi touch principles. It'll probably be introduced with a new iMac Touch and a tablet style Mac.

While you'll be able to use it with a Mouse and Keyboard, many people will find that it'll be easier to just use your finger for surfing purposes.

Of course, writing – like I'm doing now – will be more practical on a traditional keyboard.

Who says they can't coexist?

 

[beez1717]

omg

I can already see that microsoft has a ways to go with this technology: it's there and working, but items are not snapping to grids ect. What we need is a tablet with this technology and all apple has to do is make their iphone larger and more powerful, and give it some more applications and they might have hit gold

 

[G58]

The [ironic] Mac Zealot's Prayer

Oh Lord please teach me to think for myself
I bought PCs for ten years and went though hell
I bought a Mac and my life was better
Mac OS X changed my life

But I realise now, that it's all an illusion
I've been brainwashed by cruel zealots
who are fooling me into believing I'm happier
So Lord, please teach me to think for myself

They never did. That's the point. Mac zealots talk trash about crap they don't know ANYTHING at all about. Vista is a supreme modular OS. The the biggest point of Vista and its descendants is its modularity. You don't need to start from scratch to replace this or that. But again. _MANY_ but not all Mac users are people who are ignorant trash talkers who know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about anything Microsoft beyond the party line of "OMG! M$! SUCKS! AHHH SUCKS!" remember...Think Lemming guys.

Seriously though it would be refreshing to see people think for themselves for once.

 

[ipedro]

If we drop the old concepts of perpendicular screens and doing everything on one device, what uses would multi touch have today?

The answer is in what we're already using it for... the iPhone is the perfect multi touch device because it's casual use. Most people won't "sit at" their iPhones. They'll want to perform a task such as checking their email, making a phone call or looking up a stock or the weather... they'll perform that task and store their iPhone. Do that on a "sit at your computer" concept with a traditional keyboard + mouse combo and see which is more intuitive/comfortable.

If you want to write a blog for example... the keyboard approach is much better suited.

Managing your music? Neither multi-touch, nor keyboard. TV does it very well and I can see it improving as it moves from "hobby" to 3rd Apple OS. Yes.. three Apple OS's co-existing together, each suited for different tasks.

Reading the morning paper? Pick up the Mac tablet from your coffee table and read it there (i.e. Kindle).

When you think of many devices throughout your home, multi touch makes a lot of sense in many of them.

 

[beez1717]

omg again

here's the fundimental problem with this technology: there is no on screen keyboard, or double tapping that I can see so this seems to not work at all like the more advanced iphone

What needs to be doen is to elminate the keyboard in my opinion.

 

[stainlessliquid]

That's WHY Ball-Gate announced the touch aspect of Windows 7 already, because they fear Apple is going to release a tablet/touchOS at WWDC and they want to ride the coattails. Remember when Apple was supposed to release a tablet/phone and just before MacWorld, Microsoft announced the UMPC concept? They wanted to appear as being first and that Apple had stolen their idea.

Of course, they are just talking about what they plan to to do, Apple and Steve will show the world what they have already accomplished

Huh? Theyre riding the coat tails of a product that is nothing more than a really shakey rumor? That would be some sad spin by the fanboys if they ever claimed that.

Microsoft already has a product that uses this multitouch stuff. Its been out for awhile, its called Surface. No planning here, just some been there and done that. Surface is also by far the best multi touch solution out there, its so good that it looks like something from a sci-fi movie, they know what they are doing and would be foolish to try and copy an inferior multitouch system like the iphone.

 

[redsteven]

Multitouch screens are interesting, but its going no where for the average consumer/business owner.

Yup. Right now I'm sitting at my desk with my hands comfortably on my keyboard.

In a typical situation, why the hell would I want to have to hold my arms up in the air to use the computer? If I want to move the mouse across my 20" screen I only have to move it an inch or two. If I had to do it touch-screen style we'd be talking about moving my arm 20" for every 2" I have to move the mouse.

Touch screens and multi touch and other *touch stuff are nice and all, and I'm not saying that microsoft is stupid for working on the tech.

I'm just saying that... almost all of us... shouldn't care at all. It's reasonable for the Surface and that's about it right now : \

 

[DMann]

They never did. That's the point. Mac zealots talk trash about crap they don't know ANYTHING at all about. Vista is a supreme modular OS. The the biggest point of Vista and its descendants is its modularity. You don't need to start from scratch to replace this or that. But again. _MANY_ but not all Mac users are people who are ignorant trash talkers who know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about anything Microsoft beyond the party line of "OMG! M$! SUCKS! AHHH SUCKS!" remember...Think Lemming guys.

Seriously though it would be refreshing to see people think for themselves for once.

Just stating what is true. MS DID have to trash much of Vista's error ridden code. The core kernel and services were reset to Windows Server 2003 SP1 and some of the Vista features ported over to the new kernel. True, code was moved and merged between code branches, but many features needed to be scrapped, most notably, WinFS. We'll see how things go circa 2012.

The [ironic] Mac Zealot's Prayer

Oh Lord please teach me to think for myself
I bought PCs for ten years and went though hell
I bought a Mac and my life was better
Mac OS X changed my life

But I realise now, that it's all an illusion
I've been brainwashed by cruel zealots
who are fooling me into believing I'm happier
So Lord, please teach me to think for myself

Oh, and please pray for those who suck Bill's d***

Bravo!

 

[infowarfare]

Quite!

This is the company that has never innovated. Never got anything right. Why does anyone think that just because they pretend this is new, that people will buy it?

To be ahead of the game you have to be right. M$ have never been right.

Im glad you think Microsoft, the biggest tech company in existence, has never got anything right. How about Windows being the first major OS to add preemptive multitasking ...

WRONG! Amiga OS was the first in 1985, then Mac OS9 and later Windows NT. Microsoft once again was way late to the game and implemented it horribly.

 

[shikimo]

Call me "traditional," but I would rather manipulate things with a few whips of the finger or mouse instead of using two hands not resting on a surface. Aside from applications on small surfaces (MBA/iPhone), I really think this multitouch is a gimmick (Surface/MultiTouch iMac).

Yeah...I'd like to spend the R/D money to go straight from keyboards to three-dimensional virtual-touch, 100% voice recognition home computing. That will be an innovation worth waiting for...until then, the keyboard and mouse are as efficient as it's going to get (just talking about HOME computing here, not handhelds, tablets or even some business usage, for which touchscreen is wonderful...but not new).

Gates and Ballmer are no better than drug dealers. They've got millions of people hooked on their product and now they're treating them like ****. I sometimes think people today would vote for Hitler if he had a cool schtick!

If your marketing message is trying to compete with "Arbeit macht frei", you're officially a world class c***

I can almost see the drug-dealer analogy, but how do we get from there to Hitler? I've walked under the wrought-iron gate at Auschwitz with 'arbeit macht frei' written on it, the one separating the prisoner barracks, human experimentation building, execution wall and the ovens from the officers' quarters and the current administrative offices/snack bar, and I don't get your metaphor...what the hell is that comment supposed to mean??

I'm a very happy bunny actually.

People are buying PCs with Windows on board because it's what they've always bought. People were the same about diesel in cars once!

Deisel cars make up more than half of new-car purchases in Europe. Even in the US, where politically-driven emissions regulations have hurt diesel development, the market is once again growing:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/02/bosch_us_diesel.html

Yes, with its worldwide decline of about .2% a year, Mac OS X will have overtaken it by the year 2500...

You can't deny the impact Mac OS X has had, but Linux... Not so much. What is its market share, less than 1%?

True, Linux is only somewhere between one and two percent of the PC OS market, but a) that's still a lot of computers, and b) it now accounts for 12% of server OS (http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS5369154346.html), so it is having an effect.

 

[G58]

All the characters in Skoopydoo managed it just fine!

Bill forgot to mention that we're all going to have eye track detectors fitted. All we have to do is look > and the thing will move... right off the screen if we want... right across the room to a friend's screen, blink to copy their work, look back at our own screens, blink twice more and bam! their idea is ours!!

Easy really. Who needs a mouse? Who needs an idea?

... why the hell would I want to have to hold my arms up in the air to use the computer? If I want to move the mouse across my 20" screen I only have to move it an inch or two. If I had to do it touch-screen style we'd be talking about moving my arm 20" for every 2" I have to move the mouse... \

 

[ipedro]

Yup. Right now I'm sitting at my desk with my hands comfortably on my keyboard.

In a typical situation, why the hell would I want to have to hold my arms up in the air to use the computer? If I want to move the mouse across my 20" screen I only have to move it an inch or two. If I had to do it touch-screen style we'd be talking about moving my arm 20" for every 2" I have to move the mouse.

There we are again: being closed minded. Why must your screen be perpendicular to a surface? Why should the screen be in front of you? Is that how you read a book? Is that how you write on a paper?

In the example of reading this site, you'd have a slate style screen that you'd pick up with one or two hands and read like a book. You could rest it on your lap or hold it up... whichever is more comfortable to you. You'd flick the screen to scroll or change pages.

We don't have the constraints of heavy displays any longer, therefore you don't have to reach up in front of you with your arms up in the air.

 

[G58]

"Arbeit Macht Frei" - the biggest lie in history. Every dictator and megalomaniac since has been competing with that one.

I can almost see the drug-dealer analogy, but how do we get from there to Hitler? I've walked under the wrought-iron gate at Auschwitz with 'arbeit macht frei' written on it, the one separating the prisoner barracks, human experimentation building, execution wall and the ovens from the officers' quarters and the current administrative offices/snack bar, and I don't get your metaphor...what the hell is that comment supposed to mean??

 

[DMann]

Less, yes. But how much less? Not much.

This too shall be seen....... I, too, owned a Sony Walkman, when they had 90% market share of portable music players.

 

[Syrus28]

Yesterday, SP1. Still slower than XP, S-L-O-W boot time - way too bloated, period, UAC is pathetic, (yes, I am aware it can be disabled) a large number of apps which run on XP do not run properly on Vista - many compatibility issues. 90% of those 90% which have Vista pre-installed have been already well acclimated to having computer issues, and will thus put up with it. It is simply not true that consumers choose a PC because it has any incarnation of Windows on it - they do so to get on-line, buy what their friends and family already have, and to run software used at work. Incidentally, I do not recall seeing any lines outside of stores on the day Vista was released as we witness with OS X releases.

Are you serious? People are buying PCs because it has Windows on it. While they may not share the love for it many Apple zealots show for Mac OS X, that does not mean they don't prefer it. They are buying Windows to use Internet Explorer to get online, and Windows to run their software. They obviously were satisfied enough with their last experience that they did not go looking for alternatives. Especially now, when Macs, iPods, and iPhones are so popular. Still, PC sales are still growing in record numbers. I wonder why?

I have a Media Tech class at my high school, which is purely popular because they use Macs. However, ask the students at the end of the year and they are no closer to purchasing Macs than they were before. While nice, there are issues with Macs just like any computer. Never ending "beach balls", reboots, programs crashing, screen frozen, etc. I think you have watched too many Mac vs PC commercials and are simply caught up with all things Apple. Its ok to have a preference, and Mac OS X may very well suit you better, but its a little foolish to think people put up with Windows only because they are use to problems, or don't know about macs.

And frankly, it seems many Apple fans are like that. Apple has the "wow" factor that seems to attract people. No doubt, people lined up overnight to get Leopard for what? Time Machine, Spaces, and Stacks? You need look no further than the recent lines at the NY Apple Store to see that people line up for anything. They get caught up in the hype, and that has nothing to do on whether the product delivers or not, only that its Apple. In that case, there was no product. People lined up because it was a Apple Store and they say others lining up. Now, to base Windows popularity on whether lines develop at the local electronic store seems a little foolish, doesn't it?

 

[G58]

Agreed. That's why I said: "People WERE the same about diesel in cars once!".

Deisel cars make up more than half of new-car purchases in Europe. Even in the US, where politically-driven emissions regulations have hurt diesel development, the market is once again growing:

 

[foniks2020]

Dedicated Appliances not General Computing

Multi Touch is the future of UI. People are trying to apply multi-touch to the technology and standards of today... which is why it doesn't make sense.

PC's as they exist today will be seen as relics of the past.. sitting at a desk or with a computer in your lap for hours doing all your work and entertainment? Why?

"Computers" will be decentralized, casual use and specific use devices –ubiquitous to our daily lives.

Touch is already huge with dedicated devices AKA appliances... like GPS, hi-end kitchen appliances, point of sale terminals, etc.

Multi-touch will become more standard with these devices but will also be used for General Computing... but not the way we do it today...

Touch UI works for almost everything except word processing. It works for graphic design, game play, navigating menus, flipping through text 'pages', photo albums, music collections... anything that is basically read only.

When you add in auto-suggest for things like searching and filtering it works for web browsing in general... ie: type the first few letters then pick your selection as it rises to the top, no need to type out the entire sentence/keyword set.

There definitely will need to be a move away from typing intensive tasks, letting the computer do most of the work with the operator gently guiding and suggesting via a touch UI which decisions it makes along the way.

I can see all sorts of drag and drop UIs that let you build queries or task lists similar to how Automator works... all kinds of preset building blocks that the user wires together to create their own personal workflow. Once you have selected a general direction for your task (Spreadsheet, Online Purchase, Photo Editing, for example) there are only so many options left... and a wizard interface would be very quick when you are not moving a mouse around the screen and instead are simply jabbing at the options with a finger.

I don't think most people can really imagine what a great Touch UI would be like. They are so oriented to doing all the work themselves using a keyboard and mouse that they are blind to how much extra thought processing goes in to the hand-eye coordination required to even do the simplest task using a mouse....

****where's my cursor, okay found it by waving the mouse around, now get it over to the window, click to focus, now position it just over the item I want to click on, click once (not twice, don't want to open it) to highlight it, now right-click to bring up the context menu, now ease that cursor ever so slightly over to the right and down so that the rename item is active, now click once. whoooh.... got it, oh crap don't click anywhere or I'll have to redo all that right-click stuff... okay now start typing the name and.... hit enter. Good now my file is named WTFTookSoLongToRenameThisFile.****

Multi-touch version:

****Cursor what cursor... there's my file, -touch-, got it selected, now I'll hit the edit file menu, -touch-, good it's open... now tap "rename file", ok that popped up a dialogue with a keyboard, tap-tap-tap "ThisWasSoFreakinEasy" and done.

 

[camsoft]

Microsoft needs to wake up and realize that multi-touch is not suited for a desktop or laptop because the ergonomics just don't work. It's the same reason why the tablet has been a failure and why I don't think Apple will release one unless it's just a slightly bigger version of the iPhone that can still be held in one hand. Who is gonna work on a computer when their arms will need to be floating in the air all the time except for gadget geeks? The problem for Microsoft is that while multi-touch makes sense for Surface it's only a niche product while the iphone is a mass market product so they are trying to force multi-touch onto PC's where it doesn't belong. Apple realizes this and that's why they made a touchpad that can do multi-touch as the ergonomics of that implementation actually make sense.

That is just so wrong. What you think the ergonomics of a keyboard and mouse are more natural than using your hands.

Microsoft are spot on with their direction. Microsoft are spending a lot of time working towards touch and voice recognition. You put a person that has never used a computer before in front of a keyboard and mouse, and watch them struggle. You put someone in front of a Nintendo Wii for example or a touch screen and I guarantee they would pick it up instantly.

You have to remember that these videos are of prototype software/hardware and of course the user experience will be improved.

I also think that if Steve Jobs was demoing this at MacWorld you lot would be saying how amazing this is.

Apple did NOT invent multi-touch it was being developed by lots of different people. Give Microsoft some credit, they do innovate, just checkout the Microsoft Research projects, like Photosynth etc.

 

[DMann]

And frankly, it seems many Apple fans are like that. Apple has the "wow" factor that seems to attract people. No doubt, people lined up overnight to get Leopard for what? Time Machine, Spaces, and Stacks? You need look no further than the recent lines at the NY Apple Store to see that people line up for anything. They get caught up in the hype, and that has nothing to do on whether the product delivers or not, only that its Apple. In that case, there was no product. People lined up because it was a Apple Store and they say others lining up. Now, to base Windows popularity on whether lines develop at the local electronic store seems a little foolish, doesn't it?

Yes, the wow factor has greatly to do with, "I can now use a machine which looks great, with a reliable OS designed to run on it specifically, furnished with applications which are well integrated and easy to use (uncluttered by comparison to MS menus) with FAR FEWER glitches than those I've put up with previously on a PC running Windows. The hype you mention might pertain to the extreme joy people feel in discovering a solution to their frustrating experiences of the past. At least, if a spinning beach ball occurs, a force quit will allow you to resume and save work, in contrast to a non-productive Ctrl+Alt+Del solution for a blue screen of death.

 

[infowarfare]

Apple Fanboy vs Apple Basher

They never did. That's the point. Mac zealots talk trash about crap they don't know ANYTHING at all about. Vista is a supreme modular OS. The the biggest point of Vista and its descendants is its modularity. You don't need to start from scratch to replace this or that. But again. _MANY_ but not all Mac users are people who are ignorant trash talkers who know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about anything Microsoft beyond the party line of "OMG! M$! SUCKS! AHHH SUCKS!" remember...Think Lemming guys.

Seriously though it would be refreshing to see people think for themselves for once.

You know, people like you make me laugh. You don't realize that Windows users are and have been the true lemmings...

The difference between Apple Fanboys (me included) and Apple bashers (like you) is that Apple bashers aren't really Microsoft fanboys; they don't really love Windows the way Apple users love Apple, it's that, deep down inside they feel they made the wrong choice because they followed blindly with the rest of the mindless Microsoft herd. And of course when you hear people switching over to a Mac and the joy and revelation it brings; to finally realize what was wrong with computing in the Windows world (i.e. having to "deal" with the OS constantly instead of just getting on with the enjoyment of computing) you get frustrated and angry and start bashing on every Mac forum you can find to somehow prove that your Windows choice is valid and better and that Mac users are all blind.

But the truth of the matter actually is; when Ballmer says "10 Million people like Macs and 290 Million people like Windows PC" he (as always) is wrong. 10 Million people CHOSE Macs because it actually makes them more productive and their computing experience more enjoyable... and probably about 80% of the 290 Million Windows people just didn't know any better! They didn't realize they had a choice! I STILL have friends that use Windows not because they like it (in fact, they really truly hate it) but because they don't think there is a true choice. I ask them why not switch to a Mac? They always say, "Oh, I thought about it. They look sexy and all but, I don't want to have to relearn computing and aren't they way more expensive? And aren't they supposed to be going out of business soon or something?" And that's the old fallacy. Now all things being equal (with Intel processors) a brand name PC with the same specs as an Apple will cost the same, but the Apple will have more useful software, be more stable, have a better user experience and be easier to learn out of the box, have a longer resell value and THESE are the reasons that Mac converts become fanboys... because they have seen the light. And THIS is the reason Apple bashers that still use Windows hate Mac users, because they didn't really truly explore their options and they feel left out now from the "in" crowd. They just don't get it...

Ok, rant over.

 

[Marble]

There we are again: being closed minded. Why must your screen be perpendicular to a surface? Why should the screen be in front of you? Is that how you read a book? Is that how you write on a paper?

In the example of reading this site, you'd have a slate style screen that you'd pick up with one or two hands and read like a book. You could rest it on your lap or hold it up... whichever is more comfortable to you. You'd flick the screen to scroll or change pages.

We don't have the constraints of heavy displays any longer, therefore you don't have to reach up in front of you with your arms up in the air.

It doesn't matter. Without a vertical screen you can't use a keyboard unless it's on the screen, and then:

1) Typing on a seamless surface is problematic. Even haptic surfaces are a primitive replacement for a physical thing, because they don't give touch-related information when not actively in use.

2) Typing on a seamless surface is not ergonomic... unless at the exact angle a keyboard would be, and in the same place in front of your body. Hold your touch-screen too flat, too steep, or put it too close or too far from your body and typing becomes a lot less comfortable and safe.

3) Typing on a touch screen obscures a portion of what would normally be your work area... requiring you to shift around your workspace more frequently. This is both distracting and antiproductive.

Finally, the vertical screen is the most desirable because it creates the least amount of perspective distortion based on viewing angle. Reading text like this is much easier when the surface is as close to perpendicular to one's POV as possible.

Touch as an input method remains only marginally more productive than keyboard + mouse for a handful of occasional tasks. Even for these, the k + m are perfectly capable, and for everything else they are irreplaceable. Basically, the idea of multi-touch (possibly haptic) computer screens would be a superfluous and very expensive appendage for any typical application of the personal computer.