[WW] MRVille VIII: Something has Survived... GAME OVER, Vampires win!

[Don't panic]

i understand your point and agree with most of what you say.
i just don't see this specific issue as a particularly relevant one as i think it is not going to happen much and the only reason it happened last game was because of very peculiar circumstances.
and you could just add an option to your interpretation - the baddies decided not to attack anyone.

in general i don't have problems or strong preferences either way. as long as it's clear what rules are going to be used, i'll play by them.


another curiosity: if a vamp attacks a WW at night and kills it, is it known that the dead villager is a WW? or is the reveal only specific for lynching? what if a WW attacks another WW (or any combination of creatures)? is that even allowed?


@ jav, i think last game showed that with the priest the beginning can be very interesting and meaningful, so i'd just go with day 1. 'special night 1" seems just a waste of time, and the 'new' players last time did very well (jim, melkorr, moyank cerebrus), so i don't think there is any particular reason to babysit their new equivalent

 

[chrmjenkins]

*snip*

I know you're not attacking us, but it certainly wasn't what we wanted to do. We assumed the special role (if it even existed), wouldn't be advertised as was initially stated. Ravenvii did it unintentionally out of frustration and it drastically changed our game plan. That was our only option if someone wanted to go back and look at iBookG4user's post.

Normally, I don't think it is a good idea to skip a kill. As long as bad guys still exist, people will continue to be lynched. We rarely have insight as to whether a specific bad guy is a werewolf or vampire in our guessing, so it isn't strategically salient to think withholding a WW or vamp kill will trick people into not lynching a particular person over another.

 

[ravenvii]

Posted from iPhone

Only seven more people and I can close sign-ups and write the introduction. Thoughts on starting time?

I was thinking Night with only good specials doing their thing if we have new players to give them a chance.

Or

If we have repeat players (same as last time), we start out directly into Day 1 with everyone active.

I think we should start at daytime. Like I said in my thoughts in the previous game (and Don't panic said above), the Priest presents itself as a great solution to day one random-voting-syndrome.

 

[jav6454]

I think we should start at daytime. Like I said in my thoughts in the previous game (and Don't panic said above), the Priest presents itself as a great solution to day one random-voting-syndrome.

Taking these two arguments into account, day time it is. Now, let me finish class stuff and I'll respond to the response arguments.

 

[chrmjenkins]

I think we should start at daytime. Like I said in my thoughts in the previous game (and Don't panic said above), the Priest presents itself as a great solution to day one random-voting-syndrome.

I agree.

And before my role is assigned and I'm accused of bias, we're best off selecting only 3 or 4 names. The best outcome is excluding people from an initial lynching we want to hold on to. If we do find a baddie in such a small group like that, it will be easy to find them and we won't piss away 4 or so days weeding out a group of our best players.

For instance, if it's 4 players and we lynch a wrong one the first day, seer can scan one of the other 3 and hopefully steer us to/away from that individual, giving us 1/2 odds by the second day. In theory

 

[mscriv]

i understand your point and agree with most of what you say.
i just don't see this specific issue as a particularly relevant one as i think it is not going to happen much and the only reason it happened last game was because of very peculiar circumstances.

Normally, I don't think it is a good idea to skip a kill. As long as bad guys still exist, people will continue to be lynched. We rarely have insight as to whether a specific bad guy is a werewolf or vampire in our guessing, so it isn't strategically salient to think withholding a WW or vamp kill will trick people into not lynching a particular person over another.

Thanks for understanding it's not personal. I think the only reason I'm being so vocal about this is I see it as a brilliant strategy for the baddies that would tip the scale in their favor and make the game too random. For example, a couple of games back I was the WW hunter and a night went by without a kill. I was left trying to decide between:
- outing myself at that point thinking I had been attacked and lost my immunity
- congratulating myself on a successful protection
- speculating as to who was the vampire that the wolves had attacked and failed to kill

I was so close to outing myself, but at the last second decided against it. In the end, I was killed the next night as the wolves had failed to kill me and in doing so immediately recognized that I was either the hunter or the vampire.

I think a large plotline of each game we play is the cat and mouse gameplay between the hunters and the baddies. I know if I was a baddie and I could choose to not kill on any given night that I would probably choose to do so just to mess with the hunters and possibly the other baddies. If I could force a hunter to reveal themselves by doing so then I would consider it a worthwhile risk depending upon how safe I felt regarding lynching. Additionally, with vamps likely to be active sooner according to the new rules then choosing not to kill until the exact right moment could be a big advantage as it could totally take the village by surprise and be a complete game changer.

Again, just my $0.02 on the issue, but I think I've said more than enough at this point and I'll leave it up to the powers that be to decide.

 

[Melkorr]

That is true. I think everyone should have a choice to be recruited or not. However, as ravenvii made in the last game the Secret Society the ones actually running the village. In other words, like the heads of state. So saying no is saying no to authority.

Thoughts? However, I can make an exception for the Hunters...

I think all roles should be able to say no to the NW no matter what.

@ aggie. It wasn't personal I was just using you as an example to illustrate my point about being able to say no to the NW.


Also I think that the head vamp should be able to infect a special excluding the hunters and priest only until night 3. If the WWs can do it so should the vamps. It would make the baddies a bit more even.


Finally I think the WW/Vamp should be able to forfeit a nightly kill if they wanted to. It probably won't help them to win but they should have the option.

 

[chrmjenkins]

You want to make the baddies more even? Make the vampire invisible to seer scans until he's activated.

 

[jav6454]

I'd like to play again, so in please.

Jav, as far as the Executioner having 30 minutes, I think that's very limiting. We have players all over the world with multiple time zones in play. I would suggest that you PM the executioner as soon as majority or the deadline is reached so that they get an email notification of the PM and are not just dependent on reading the thread at the right time. Hopefully, the Executioner will be an active player and we won't have to worry about this, but if we want to play with this role we have to allow a reasonable time for response.

Agreed, see below.

Allow the executioner to send you conditional PMs.

For instance,

"If x is going to be lynched, I would like to kill y instead. If for some reason y is insta-killed, please kill z in the place of x."

Or

"If x and y have equal votes and x is going to be lynched, lynch y instead."

And the list goes on. As long as you can parse their request, they shouldn't have to respond in a small time frame.

Agreed with that. Executioner can PM me when ever they want to have a list of preset options. Ideally, this should be done day in advanced.


Changes so far:
1. The Hunters will be split into Master and Apprentice. Master stays with the same powers, Apprentice has a one-time immunity. The Hunter will be notified that he/she lost said ability. This can be debated.

2. Time of inactivity will be 80 hours; after you die. If you are a Special, don't post in-game and you PM me actions, then you will be counted as active. If you get caught as special because of this, tough. You are also supposed to contribute even a Hello to the game or realize when I give you the position if you can or can't make the game.

3. All players can say no to the Night Watch recruitment. Night Watch only gets a Accepted/Declines Invitation PM.

4. Executioner should have preset options. Ideally 4-3 options from which to choose from. In descending order or important.

If X and Y are tied, do Z.
If O goes, kill H instead.
If G is chosen, get I.

5. Head Vampire is still able to be seen by the Seer. Unlucky if they get you at once, but that's how it has worked for the wolves, makes it fair for all.

6. Night Watch murder (infiltrated wolf or vampire), it acts as the nights kill for the murdering party. In other words, if a wolf decides to murder them, they forfeit their original target and the NW goes. Same for the vampire sucking them bone dry. Night Watch will not be informed of infiltration. This makes them think hard of who to enlist.

7. Vampire attack on Wolf and vice-versa. Immunity for one time. After, the target dies. Fair since both are not allies.

8. Wolf infection on the vampire. The Infection is wasted. We don't need a mega wolf with bazookas for arms and wings.

9. Priest, will never loose Special status. Immune to vampire conversion by default since the vampire can only convert non-specials. Vulnerable to WW infection after Day 3 ends.

10. Kamikaze WW, you should have your target in as soon as possible. Preferably the same day you get your role. Hunter protection and immunity, vampire one-time immunity, and Priest protection (if still active) will kick in to defend against this attack.

11. Game starts Day time with all specials activated.

I will update the Game post to reflect these changes. Please do carry on with the rule clarifications.

 

[appleguy123]

6. Do you mean if the SS is infected, you will not tell them? I think that you should. If they recruit a baddie, then they shouldn't be told of it.

 

[Don't panic]

seems good.
- i wouldn't tell the hunters if they lost their immunity. but if you do, the same should apply to vamps and WWs.

- SS wipeout: is it instantaneous and it vacates the following night killing, or does it occur instead of the next night killing the next night?

once an SS it's infected, does he/she have to decide immediately wipeout vs infiltration? or can they use it whenever they want (instead of a night kill)

- SS recruitment: what is needed to recruit? majority, unanimity, any of them? what if it is a tie?

- if WW tries to infect the vamp, does the vamp loses its immunity to 1 WW attack?

 

[Don't panic]

i have added in red some clarifications to be added to the rules (if my interpretation is correct). they don't change anything, just make them clearer, especially to the new players who might not be following the rule discussions

THE GOOD GUYS:

Master Hunter: Picks a player to protect each night from werewolf and/or vampire attacks. He cannot protect themselves or pick the same player to protect consecutively. The protection is effective against infection and against a kamikaze werewolf attack during the daytime. They have the ability to, during the daytime, instantly kill any player of their choosing. Has an one-time immunity against werewolf or vampire attack. Cannot be infected

Apprentice Hunter: Same as Master Hunter, But has just an one-time immunity against werewolf or vampire attack, including WW infection.

Seer: Can scan any ALIVE player for their role.

Undertaker: Similar to the Seer, except for DEAD players.

Sorcerer: One-time power to resurrect any dead player during the daytime.

Priest: Can, during the daytime, ask the Gods a yes/no question. Requires 3 villagers to agree to participate in the ritual (they must join after the question is formally asked). If ritual fails to complete by nightfall, it must be restarted the next day. An unanswerable question will result in the Priest's death. Has the blessing of the Gods - cannot be attacked or infected for the first three days of the game. Immune to vampire conversion by default since the vampire can only convert non-specials.

Executioner: May change who is lynched once during the game. must PM decision right after the majority or deadline is reached (but can pre-order the change)

The Secret Society: Villagers who can PM each other. No other special powers. Starts with 3 villagers. Can optionally recruit 2 more by simple majority decision. Recruitment is a instant ability and can only be done during the daytime. If a werewolf or vampire is recruited, or a member of the Society is infected, the werewolf or vampire will have the option to murder all the members of the Society in one night. This will take place of a normal nightly killing (in any of the following nights). This is, of course, unless the werewolf or vampire which is part of the Society is lynched first. In case of an infiltration, the Society will not be informed of an infiltration. Note that the Secret Society is not considered "special" in the context of the game. All players can say no to the Night Watch recruitment. Night Watch only gets a Accepted/Declines Invitation PM.

Villagers: Same as before.

THE BAD GUYS:

The Werewolves: There are two Werewolves. Werewolves can PM each other. They pick one villager to kill per night (optional).

a) The Alpha Werewolf can at any time during daytime, pick one villager to infect. This will convert the villager into a normal werewolf (no special abilities) and join the werewolves' pack. The Alpha Werewolf only has one chance at an infection - there are no second chances in case of a failed infection. Has a one-time immunity to vamp attack.

b) The Kamikaze Werewolf has the ability to pick any villager to kill during his lynching. Has a one-time immunity to vamp attack.

c) The normal Werewolf has no powers. This type results from an successful infection by the Alpha Werewolf. Has a one-time immunity to vamp attack.

Vampire: There will be one vampire. At first, the only ability the vampire has is to turn a villager into a vampire. This conversion will only be successful if the villager is NOT a special. The vampire has unlimited attempts to infect a villager, but only one villager can be infected. Once the vampire infects another, the two vampires will begin to kill one player per night (optional). Has a one-time immunity to WW attack.


Note that the vampire(s) are NOT on the werewolves' side, so they will NOT know who the werewolves are, nor will the werewolves know who the vampire(s) is/are. they cannot infect each others

 

[jav6454]

6. Do you mean if the SS is infected, you will not tell them? I think that you should. If they recruit a baddie, then they shouldn't be told of it.

In real life, when a company recruits someone, they don't know if that person will be good for them, or if they are a spy.

seems good.
- i wouldn't tell the hunters if they lost their immunity. but if you do, the same should apply to vamps and WWs.

- SS wipeout: is it instantaneous and it vacates the following night killing, or does it occur instead of the next night killing the next night?

once an SS it's infected, does he/she have to decide immediately wipeout vs infiltration? or can they use it whenever they want (instead of a night kill)

- SS recruitment: what is needed to recruit? majority, unanimity, any of them? what if it is a tie?

- if WW tries to infect the vamp, does the vamp loses its immunity to 1 WW attack?

1. Vamp immunity lost because of infection

2. There will be a head SS; however consultation with his peers is expected.

3. The SS murder means the wolves or vampires forfeit their night kill for that night.

4. I'll tell the wolves and vampires as well, forgot about that.

5. Whoever infiltrates has the option of when to kill the SS. They can decide to kill them off the same day as infiltration or sometime after.

6. If a Hunter is with in the SS, and the SS is infiltrated, the hunter survives the massacre if and only if, the Hunter still has his/her immunity.

 

[ravenvii]

You want to make the baddies more even? Make the vampire invisible to seer scans until he's activated.

I like this idea.

Comments on changes:

Changes so far:
1. The Hunters will be split into Master and Apprentice. Master stays with the same powers, Apprentice has a one-time immunity. The Hunter will be notified that he/she lost said ability. This can be debated.

Both has always has one-time immunity. What has changed with the apprentice? Is it only that the apprentice can be infected after an attack?


5. Head Vampire is still able to be seen by the Seer. Unlucky if they get you at once, but that's how it has worked for the wolves, makes it fair for all.

The wolves' got kamikaze plus possibility of infecting a special. The vamps get squat. I think being invisible from scans until activation is a great idea, and ties in the mythos pretty well, also.

6. Night Watch murder (infiltrated wolf or vampire), it acts as the nights kill for the murdering party. In other words, if a wolf decides to murder them, they forfeit their original target and the NW goes. Same for the vampire sucking them bone dry. Night Watch will not be informed of infiltration. This makes them think hard of who to enlist.

This is the way it has always been in my rules.

7. Vampire attack on Wolf and vice-versa. Immunity for one time. After, the target dies. Fair since both are not allies.

This is the way it has been the past few games.

8. Wolf infection on the vampire. The Infection is wasted. We don't need a mega wolf with bazookas for arms and wings.

Never allowed, so not a change.

9. Priest, will never loose Special status. Immune to vampire conversion by default since the vampire can only convert non-specials. Vulnerable to WW infection after Day 3 ends.

Same as before.

10. Kamikaze WW, you should have your target in as soon as possible. Preferably the same day you get your role. Hunter protection and immunity, vampire one-time immunity, and Priest protection (if still active) will kick in to defend against this attack.

Same. Hopefully you allow the KWW to change his order as the game goes on



Just saying that most of those changes aren't actually changes. Clarifications maybe, but not changes

 

[Melkorr]

Apprentice Hunter: Same as Master Hunter, but is vulnerable to infection.

I really don't like this role. Both hunters should be immune to infection no matter what.

 

[appleguy123]

In real life, when a company recruits someone, they don't know if that person will be good for them, or if they are a spy.

I mean if they are infected by a WW or Vamp, will the society be informed? I support the idea of not being told if they recruit a bad guy.

 

[Don't panic]

I really don't like this role. Both hunters should be immune to infection no matter what.

i disagree on this (actually i think they both should be infectable), but it really doesn't make much of a difference. since the baddies wouldn't know if a hunter is the master or the apprentice, to try to infect would be very risky, and it would only work after he was already attacked once.
by all practical means, they are still invulnerable, but there is at least the theoretical possibility that they could be taken down.

 

[jav6454]

Ok, seems the vampire not seen until activation is a liked idea, will therefore be implemented.

As ravenvii said, this game doesn't feature major rule changes, just clarifications for many confusions. Again, I said change, but I believe the more appropriate word is clarifications.

The Aprentice is different from the Master. Let me take a further look into what I can do to make it simpler to understand.


Posting from iPhone so I can't multi quote or edit large posts.

 

[chrmjenkins]

Just to make sure you know, an invisible vamp could sit there unactivated until the end of the game and steal it with an infection like a sneaky bastard provided the last couple people weren't all specials.

 

[ravenvii]

Just to make sure you know, an invisible vamp could sit there unactivated until the end of the game and steal it with an infection like a sneaky bastard provided the last couple people weren't all specials.

That's the exactly thought I had. It's time we provide the vamps with a *real* chance of winning it all.

I've always intended the vamps to be a "oh crap!" role when I first conceived the role. It just evolved into a mess because they're so underpowered that they just didn't have that "oh crap" effect.

 

[Cboss]

I'm in.

I agree with Don't panic that both hunters should be able to be infected. The hunter/baddie would be a very interesting combination.

I also don't think that the SS should be notified of an infection or infiltration. They need to play smart and recruit safe players.

 

[-aggie-]

… this game will see no major rule changes, just clarifications before game.

Yeah, right.

 

[mscriv]

I mean if they are infected by a WW or Vamp, will the society be informed?

I agree. As I understood ravenvii's rules the SS was notified if a WW or Vampire infected one of their members and they could not be wiped out until the next night killing. This allowed them a one shot chance to determine who the infected member was and vote to lynch them before the night massacre could happen. I think this method seems most fair.

 

[iBlue]

Don't care about all the tweaking, I think the last game was brilliant as it was so whatever you all want. Really excellent narration, ravenvii! It's nice to see your name in the player list.

I'm in.

I am successfully moved and very, very pleased about it. Though I only have my phone for internet (I tether it to type anything of length but I still have to contend with data limits) so as before, I may not be as vocal. Still plenty enough to get past the new 80 hour activity rule.

 

[stonyc]

I agree. As I understood ravenvii's rules the SS was notified if a WW or Vampire infected one of their members and they could not be wiped out until the next night killing. This allowed them a one shot chance to determine who the infected member was and vote to lynch them before the night massacre could happen. I think this method seems most fair.

Eh, I don't agree.

This is how I see the balance of the NW's abilities...

++ they can PM each other, no other Villagers can (that's 2-4 other people that the NW already know they don't have to vote for, per round... that's a significant amount of informational advantage over most everyone in the game)
- they can be infected like any other Villager
++ they can act as a 3-5 person voting bloc if they chose to do so (insanely powerful)
--- they can be wiped out completely if one of their members is infected
+ they are informed when one of their own is infected

I'm willing to admit that I may be over/under-estimating some abilities, maybe even for convenience sake, but I think if they are privy to an infection of one of their own members, it over-balances them. I think they become more balanced if they don't know if one of their own has been infected. Just my opinion, though.

EDIT: The other reason why I like the idea of not letting the NW know if one of their own has been infected is that the WW (or Vampire) can hold that in their pocket... then wipe out the NW in one fell swoop at a critical time. It gets the espionage component going, IMO. That's if they're even successful in infecting a member of the NW in the first place.