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[WW] MRVille VIII: Something has Survived... GAME OVER, Vampires win!

mscriv said:
I agree. As I understood ravenvii's rules the SS was notified if a WW or Vampire infected one of their members and they could not be wiped out until the next night killing. This allowed them a one shot chance to determine who the infected member was and vote to lynch them before the night massacre could happen. I think this method seems most fair.
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it depends on what you mean by 'fair' and where you think the balance of the game is leaning to.

notification of infection is a tremendous help for the village, because it makes the secret society an almost worthless target for the WW, as what would most likely do is just buy them one day at the cost of using the infection, as discussed in the other thread.
with notification, the secret society can safely come out immediately because it wouldn't be a very smart move by the wolf to infect them, as they are guaranteed to lose their most powerful weapon in exchange for two villagers. the only scenario where it would make sense for them is at end game if it gives them the win.

in addition, in terms of 'flavor' and storytelling, it doesn't make sense to have a public secret society or clumsy spies/infiltrators who gets caught as soon as they move.

if infiltration is NOT notified, then it makes them a prime target for infection and they should be very careful about maintaining their secret and about recruitment.

edit: mscriv,
think of how it would have played in the last game if you were not kamikazed by stonyC:
day one: the same, only someone else would have been killed by stonyC
night one: Chrmjenkins would have infected you, by the previous rule mex and kufford are notified of an infection in their ranks.
day two: mex announces that one of him, you and kufford have been infected.
at this point, given the 1-in-3 chances of finding a baddie, votings switch to one of the 3, most likely you becuase you'd be perceived as the major threat.

at that point it is impossible to predict the follow up, but i think it would have unfolded quickly for the baddies.
 
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Don't panic said:
edit: mscriv,
think of how it would have played in the last game if you were not kamikazed by stonyC:
day one: the same, only someone else would have been killed by stonyC
night one: Chrmjenkins would have infected you, by the previous rule mex and kufford are notified of an infection in their ranks.
day two: mex announces that one of him, you and kufford have been infected.
at this point, given the 1-in-3 chances of finding a baddie, votings switch to one of the 3, most likely you becuase you'd be perceived as the major threat.

at that point it is impossible to predict the follow up, but i think it would have unfolded quickly for the baddies.
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This.

Thanks panic for laying out the scenario... two outed villagers (kufford and mexbearpig) for one lynched baddie is a trade that I (as a villager) would take every day of the week. And once outed, the two remaining NW members would have become even more unlikely targets of infection by JimN because they would a) get notified again, and b) it would be a 1-for-1 trade, even better for the Villagers.

JMO, but I think the NW needs to be balanced both in favor and against the baddies... they're already balanced towards the favor of the villagers, I think we need to make the NW an actual viable target for infection (for the purposes of both espionage for the baddies, and as a trump card in the form of the mega-slaughter).

EDIT: Re: the NW as-is being a bad target of infection...

Inspired by chrmjenkins' mission to "control the infection" (at least as much as one can in this game, what would stop an entire NW (very martyr-like) from just outing themselves at the beginning of the game? The worst that can possibly happen to them is that the Vampire and Alpha WW waste their infections on a member of the NW because the remaining member of the NW gets informed of the infection, the other two members are quickly lynched and the villagers have now traded 2 baddies for 2 villagers (at most the original 3 NW members as the remaining non-infected one gets whacked the following night in the mass-slaughter). Even if just one of the NW gets infected, you see what happens above in Panic's scenario.

Knowing this, there really is nothing stopping the NW from outing themselves at the beginning of the game because they are just that bad targets for infection that the Vampire/WW could not infect a member of the NW without severe repercussions to their own side. The entire NW effectively becomes the Master Hunter (- attack immunity/kill shot ability) with infection immunity for the whole game. They can now out themselves with impunity. I think making it so that the NW are not informed of an infection in their ranks is more fair to both sides.
 
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Don't panic said:
edit: mscriv,
think of how it would have played in the last game if you were not kamikazed by stonyC:
day one: the same, only someone else would have been killed by stonyC
night one: Chrmjenkins would have infected you, by the previous rule mex and kufford are notified of an infection in their ranks.
day two: mex announces that one of him, you and kufford have been infected.
at this point, given the 1-in-3 chances of finding a baddie, votings switch to one of the 3, most likely you becuase you'd be perceived as the major threat.

at that point it is impossible to predict the follow up, but i think it would have unfolded quickly for the baddies.
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I think you guys are overestimating the power of the SS. In the last game Kufford never sent a PM at all. He/She effectively was a non player.

Here's the thing, most of us agree that infection is the most powerful ability in the game. If you don't notify the SS that they have been infiltrated then you are basically giving the WW's or Vamps two free kills. There is no risk in this move for them at all.

I hear what you are saying about how last game could have played out, but it all depends on who the players are and what strategy they choose. Is is possible someone is so influential that they could convince their fellow SS brothers/sisters to not out themselves? I don't know.

I think you are right in saying that it depends on what balance of power you think is more appropriate. What would be really interesting is if SS members could be lynched without a reveal of their status (infected or uninfected). This would allow for the possibility that an infected member could take out his comrades without having to be lynched himself.

In truth, I don't know. I see both sides of the argument on this one and am okay with whatever the powers that be decide.
 
Well, this game is always being tweaked... I vote we try a game where the SS is not informed of infection. If we find that it plays too much into the baddies' hands, tweak it back. :)

EDIT: With my luck, mscriv will be the Alpha WW and I'll be on the SS this time around. ;)
 
Even if you don't inform the NW/SS, it still may benefit them to out theirselves.

Scenario 1: you don't inform them, the infected is not killed (other two are). To combat this, NW/SS out themselves at the begging. As soon as two die in one night, you know to lynch the other one. The only possible saving grace the wolves, vampires have is if the NW/SS is somehow down to two members. Then, one dieing as a resut of infection won't be conspicuous, but the seer can still check the remaining member if they've outed themselves in the beginning. This just causes the SS/NW to not want to recruit more to minimize deaths, that's it.

Scenario 2; you don't inform them, the infected is killed. Three deaths straight away and the ww/vamp loses his infection. I think Stonyc would call that a fair trade.

So, even without informing them, they still have the upper hand in outing themselves if the ww vamp is going to kill them. The only scenario they have an advantage is infection without mass kill, no informing.
 
stonyc said:
Well, this game is always being tweaked... I vote we try a game where the SS is not informed of infection. If we find that it plays too much into the baddies' hands, tweak it back. :)

EDIT: With my luck, mscriv will be the Alpha WW and I'll be on the SS this time around. ;)
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I'm with this. Let's just play the game and see how it goes. It's not the end of the universe if things don't work out.
 
chrmjenkins said:
Scenario 2; you don't inform them, the infected is killed. Three deaths straight away and the ww/vamp loses his infection. I think Stonyc would call that a fair trade.
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I think that would depend on the actual good/bad ratio, but in general... yes, flushing out the infection (+ one dead baddie) is a win in my book.

If the Villagers really wanted to take the fun out of the game, they should all just out themselves. Classic Prisoners Dilemma Tit-for-Tat strategy... you would see everyone's cards on the table and could quickly determine from a small pool of candidates where the baddies were.

But, not everyone trusts everyone here... which is as it should be, and keeps the games going and entertaining. :)
 
stonyc said:
I think that would depend on the actual good/bad ratio, but in general... yes, flushing out the infection (+ one dead baddie) is a win in my book.

If the Villagers really wanted to take the fun out of the game, they should all just out themselves. Classic Prisoners Dilemma Tit-for-Tat strategy... you would see everyone's cards on the table and could quickly determine from a small pool of candidates where the baddies were.

But, not everyone trusts everyone here... which is as it should be, and keeps the games going and entertaining. :)
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That's why we don't want special overload :D

Even if people were lying, seer just investigates duplicates while hunters protect him in a race against time.
 
Ok, so we have 16 people now. 4 more and the game will begin. As per the SS being notified.

I will not notify them of being infiltrated. This puts the added strategy of knowing who to actually recruit. Not just some random selection under the safety net of knowing they will be informed when infiltrated.

Remember, the wolf or vampire that infiltrates the NW has the option of when to do the entire slaughter. They can choose anytime they want. However as always noted, for that night the NW is killed; however, initiated the massacre forfeits their night kill.
 
jav6454 said:
I will not notify them of being infiltrated. This puts the added strategy of knowing who to actually recruit. Not just some random selection under the safety net of knowing they will be informed when infiltrated.
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I'm cool with your decision Jav, but you keep neglecting to mention what we are really talking about. Everyone seems to agree that the SS should not be informed if they invite a new member that turns out to be a baddie. As you say, that's their own fault for not recruiting better. The question being debated was should the SS be informed if one of the existing members is infected by the Alpha WW or turned by the Vampire. According to Ravenvii's original rules they were informed, but for this next game it looks like we are going to play that they are not informed. Like Stonyc said before, let's give this new method a try, but for goodness sakes man you keep posting as if you don't understand what we are talking about. ;)
 
NathanMuir said:
I don't know if I'd wait that long. Weekends are usually slower anyways around here, right? I'd say give it til tonight and then start on Friday. IMO.
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x2.

EDIT: Oops, MR hates the x2. So I'm editing to add this. Yeah, it adds nothing but words that means nothing. Wait, if you write nothing with words that mean nothing, then what is that called? Nothing made out of nothing?

mind=blown
 
mscriv said:
I'm cool with your decision Jav, but you keep neglecting to mention what we are really talking about. Everyone seems to agree that the SS should not be informed if they invite a new member that turns out to be a baddie. As you say, that's their own fault for not recruiting better. The question being debated was should the SS be informed if one of the existing members is infected by the Alpha WW or turned by the Vampire. According to Ravenvii's original rules they were informed, but for this next game it looks like we are going to play that they are not informed. Like Stonyc said before, let's give this new method a try, but for goodness sakes man you keep posting as if you don't understand what we are talking about. ;)
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I did see your comments, but since they were in pine with what happened in the past, I saw no need to contradict them. For this game, if any of the original SS gets infected or transformed, I still won't say anything.

I like to think if it as bribing a high officer or something along those lines.
 
jav6454 said:
I did see your comments, but since they were in pine with what happened in the past, I saw no need to contradict them. For this game, if any of the original SS gets infected or transformed, I still won't say anything.

I like to think if it as bribing a high officer or something along those lines.
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Just think of it as a venereal disease. You won't know within the first few days unless you're tested (seer).
 
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