WWDC: New LCD Displays

[cr2sh]

After watching the keynote... I'm a bit more agitated.

I can understand that no video card is capable of pushing a 30" display. Okay, yeh... I could buy that. Then I hear Steve say "dual dual link" and I'm like "WTF?" You're telling me that this 256mb card (6800 Ultra) can push 8.2million pixels... but the old 256mb (9800 XT) can't push 4.1million? That doesn't jive with me... it sounds like a ploy.

I'm no video card expert.. but come on... anyone buying this?

 

[StudioGuy]

other quiet price increases

On the Federal employee schedule, at least we get a deal similar to students, but they increased prices by $40 here, another $60 there, etc. on some monitors and even PowerMacs.

My hindsight says I should have bought the PM + 23" with the prior promo. Silly me thought I'd be getting a new model 23" for similar pricing as the promo, or at least something in the middle.

Just gotta buy something now. The 800 MHz FP iMac is just getting too slow.

 

[Capt Underpants]

After watching the keynote... I'm a bit more agitated.

I can understand that no video card is capable of pushing a 30" display. Okay, yeh... I could buy that. Then I hear Steve say "dual dual link" and I'm like "WTF?" You're telling me that this 256mb card (6800 Ultra) can push 8.2million pixels... but the old 256mb (9800 XT) can't push 4.1million? That doesn't jive with me... it sounds like a ploy.

I'm no video card expert.. but come on... anyone buying this?

I don't think it's a matter of being able to push the pixels, it's a matter of having the dual link DVI connector. The radeon only has a single link. It could probably push a dual link, but the dual link connector isn't available on the Radeon. That's what I think, atleast.

 

[sfwalter]

Does anyone know if the new displays are in the Apple stores? I'd like to see a 23" in person before I plop down $1700.

Thanks.

I called the Apple Store in Dallas twice. One person told me they weren't give a date, another said mid-July. So I think the store employees are clueless. Which is kind of disapointing, I would have hoped Apple would give their own employees good information.

However, I noticed macwarehouse shows 4-6 days, I just might order from macwarehouse and if they don't come in the time frame, just cancel.

 

[jsw]

After watching the keynote... I'm a bit more agitated.

I can understand that no video card is capable of pushing a 30" display. Okay, yeh... I could buy that. Then I hear Steve say "dual dual link" and I'm like "WTF?" You're telling me that this 256mb card (6800 Ultra) can push 8.2million pixels... but the old 256mb (9800 XT) can't push 4.1million? That doesn't jive with me... it sounds like a ploy.

I'm no video card expert.. but come on... anyone buying this?

As far as video RAM requirements are concerned, you need a lot less than 256MB to run 8.2MP worth of display. You need barely over 32MB. Technically. 128MB (or over 64MB) to do some buffering. Of course, the RAM is used for more than that, but, as you say, both cards have 256MB.

BUT...

Although the 9800XT has enough memory to handle dual 30" displays, it doesn't have the dual dual-link DVI outputs. It has slower memory and a slower processor. It just isn't nearly as powerful.

However, had it been built with dual dual-link DVI ports, yes, it should have been able to drive the 30" monitors.

<edit>Capt Underpants said it all first while I was typing.</edit>

 

[MikeTheC]

Riiiiiiiiiiight....... I must have said I was the only one using them... NOT. And I'm intitled to my own opinion about over excessively large monitors.

First off, you must not be a production person. I agree that for the average at-home user, a 30" monitor is a waste unless you're using it to double as a TV for DVD and TV playback.

Increase in resolution doesn't mean it's the same for a 30" on your eyes as it is to view a 20". That's just silly. The bigger the monitor size, the larger the resolution. The larger the resolution, the smaller things appear on the monitor.

Wait a minute. I think you're confused here. The higher the resolution on the same monitor, the smaller the resultant image. When adjusted correctly, you have the same aspect ratio on the next incrementally sized-up monitor.

Example: A square drawn from two horizontal lines of 72 pixels and two vertical lines of 72 pixels in a 72 dpi environment will give you a 1" square box. Now, assuming you have properly adjusted monitors, a 9" 512x342 monitor, a 640x480 13" monitor, 832x624 16" monitor, etc., will all give you a 1 inch box. That's what the definition of aspect ratio implies. So, assuming you have the monitor adjusted correctly and know what the proper corresponding h x v resolution should be, the image will remain the same "size" but you will gain more real estate.

I don't know what kind of monitors you have used, but the ones I have all behave properly.

 

[cr2sh]

However, had it been built with dual dual-link DVI ports, yes, it should have been able to drive the 30" monitors.

[edit]
Ahh.. maybe there in lies my problem. A dual link dvi interface is not a dvi interface.. but instead, some other thingy. With (I assume) twice as many pins and such.

Then, I beg the question, why force us to use Dual Dual Link Video Cards.. most people will only want to use one 30"... why do I HAVE to buy a card with one more plug than I want?

[further edit]
In that case, my earlier comments about this being a Pro Workstation were even more true than I'd thought. This card was designed with two interfaces, so using a single 30" is running a half potential. Ugh... I don't like that a whole lot.

A little bit of research after the fact produced this:

Dual Link
Dual Link DVI supports 2x165 MHz (2048x1536 at 60 Hz, 1920x1080 at 85 Hz). A dual link implementation utilizes all 24 of the available pins.

Single Link
Single Link DVI supports a maximum bandwidth of 165 MHz (1920x1080 at 60 Hz, 1280x1024 at 85Hz). A single link implementation utilizes 12 of the 24 available pins.

The interesting part being that all the googling I've done comes up with that statement that the max resolution for DL-DVI is 2048x1536. Obviously not the case here....

 

[MikeTheC]

Can someone here give an explanation of dual link DVI?

 

[apexfork]

Is...DOES THIS MONITOR GAME?

Those who know what I mean, please help me out! If it truly has 16 MS response time, that would be very slick! Who makes the panel (those who know what I am talking about please respond)? At what color depth does it have 16 MS response?

Honestly, I don't game as much on my PC as I used to, but, the monitor still needs to perform to those kind of specs!

I'm a PC user, so I'm pumped they dropped ADC for DVI. Now where to dig up the money....

I think Apple needs to send these to the nice folks at TomsHardware so they can review it.

I watched a guy play Unreal on it today. Unreal didn't support the ultra high res, but he cranked it all the way (1920x1600 or some such) and it appeared fluid to me.

YMMV

 

[apexfork]

i love those that will defend Apple to the death for flawed logic. Today's announcements were met by a 3.59% decline in Apple stock. Obviously many others were hoping for a bit more.

The price had fallen most of that way before the keynote (which began after 10PST.) Looking at the intraday, it doesn't appear that todays move was directly related to the announcements. Tomorrow who knows...

 

[TheWama]

No offense, but you are an idiot...

i was really hoping they wouldn't look like those skanky artist's renderings.

Seems they aren't cutting edge in brightness/contrast and besides, they are so terribly bland looking and uninspired esthetically. The build quality will likely distinguish them from your generic Dells up close but I was just hoping for something more original. Did Ives design those things? Perhaps he ought to change his name to Jonathon Le Corbusier.

Here's hoping for an un-Dell-like iMac G5 ASAP.

I understand some Apple fans like some of the early *fun*, *inspired* stuff like the toilet seat iBook and to a lesser extent, the newly old displays. I'm not a fan. "Inspiration" can be quite negative, when it hinders the use of the product.

To make the product flashy and less usable for the sake of novelty is a net loss to the user, because the function of a product is it's purpose. IT IS WHY THE PRODUCT EXISTS! Ive does designs to purpose, and does it very well. This is why the iPod is so easy to use, while still easy on the eye. Purposeful simplicity *is* beautiful, if you value human existence.

"Inspiration" (read: rebellion) for the sake of "inspiration" (once again, rebellion) is as mindless as conformity for the sake of conformity. The governing value in design should be, and is in Apple's case, for the most part, making the product "essential" to it's purpose (Which can and does include aesthetics, which is why the displays are aluminum and not plastic, but which should not take precedence over function).

 

[DrGruv1]

Pricing...

So many are making comparisons to cars again...

But ok, Why isn't there a nice camry or such? - not all lexus versions...

The prices are too expensive (IMHO)

I'm still using my Hitachi Superscan Elite 751 18" from xxx many years ago and paid a premium price - it was worth it - I just feel that the new monitors are priced too high. (my opinion)

Apple also needs to price some lcds in $500 and $800 range (not counting the 17" old plastic stock) A $1300 starting point is too high.

-mike

 

[groovebuster]

Actually I'm shocked...! The monitors are nice, but way too expensive! Once again Apple is making a "premium product" for "snobs".

What's so outstanding about the 20" and the 23" monitors? The firewire ports? Wow! That's why the 20" costs $300 more than a good(!) 20" inch LCD from (you name the brand). And for the price of the 23" I can get two "regular" 20" LCDs (no, they are not necessarily ugly and are from a brand manufacturer)... That's madness! And don't forget to add the 20% Apple tax for europeans on top!

I was really looking forward to the new displays because I am in the market for a (or 2) new ones. But this is robbery!!!

The only hardware I will buy from Apple in the future will be the computers. They know how to piss off their customers again and again...

Does anybody still wonder why Apple is starving with a 2% market share? I don't anymore since a very long time.

I said it before and I say it again. Apple is just the smaller pile of ****. If Linux would be an alternative, I would be off since a while.

I wonder when the next time will be that Apple makes me smile? The last time is hard for me to remember...

groovebuster

 

[seyo]

Wow great eye... here's the 480 view.

Wireless and Aluminium looking to boot. Wonder how long before that's changed?

imho, I think these are cheap 3D model renders, not actual photographic QTVR's of real products, hence the poor grey separation to differentiate the plastic keyboard and mouse from the aluminum g5 and monitor.

 

[reorx]

What pisses me off the most is when people say i don't need a g5 (yeah your g4 will do just fine blah blah blah) processor, i'm a student (therefore certain items are just out of reach even with edu discount) I use photoshop, i have a 6mp canon slr, i use cad... for me to have to wait so long for photo's to load up on iphoto or photoshop is ridiculous. My time is precious too, I need to get in and do my work without waiting for long loading times. I can't do this with items that (as perfect as they are) are so costly....

My god man... I can edit 6MP photos with *very little* delay on a 5 year old 433MHz Celeron Dell POS laptop running PS 7 in a whopping 256M memory... Its not instantaneous, but it does very well for itself. You've obviously something wrong with your machine, or more than likely there's a knowledge gap somewhere else... Sheesh.

 

[reorx]

Actually I'm shocked...! The monitors are nice, but way too expensive! Once again Apple is making a "premium product" for "snobs".

How long as Apple been the "Wal-Mart" of the computing industry?

Never.

And this suprises and shocks you?

I'm the one who's suprised and shocked at all the whining and complaining about what are fair market prices for LCDs of this caliber. Its been pointed out many times in this thread that spec-for-spec, the new monitors are dead-on current industry pricing.

 

[furrina]

vanity

I think it's pretty much understood that an Apple monitor is a "vanity" product, in that the little apple on it and the easily recognizable design don't completely justify the price difference. However, it seems to be a pretty --relatively-- "affordable" vanity upgrade:

If someone wants or needs an LCD monitor, they can buy one of the competitors' for $900, or they can buy the apple for $1200. That's a $300 difference. Not to belittle $300. But honestly, people who are buying $3,000 computer systems, it's really just $300 or so that you're griping about. And the Apple displays might be a bit better than the competition, but not so much so that it would be called a necessary expenditure. So $300-$400 is the price for the vanity upgrade. Way less than the difference between, say, a Toyota and a Mercedes-Benz.

That having been said, I'm going to buy myself a 20" display to go with my powerbook, because I do need more screen space for video. And I'm going to buy an Apple display (not sure if i'll get the new or the old yet) because I'm a fancy show-off and I figure I can scrounge up the 300 bucks to be fancy and show off. And because I can't afford a Benz.

 

[reorx]

i love those that will defend Apple to the death for flawed logic. Today's announcements were met by a 3.59% decline in Apple stock. Obviously many others were hoping for a bit more.

But that assumes that stock prices follow some sort of real, logical valuation system, when its actually the niftiest form of legalized gambling out there... Who knows the exact factors that cause prices to fluctuate... Otherwise the casinos, erm, brokers wouldn't be making any money!

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

But that assumes that stock prices follow some sort of real, logical valuation system, when its actually the niftiest form of legalized gambling out there... Who knows the exact factors that cause prices to fluctuate... Otherwise the casinos, erm, brokers wouldn't be making any money!

You are right, but the stock has seen a run up of late, not from MacRumor mongers; but from those that follow the industry. And they are voting today and maybe tomorrow with their investment dollars.

Only the next few days will tell if Apple missed or hit.

 

[Charko]

More iMac speculation

Unfortunately I haven't had the time to read the whole thread so I don't know whether the following points have been raised:
* Could the lack of a 17inch display say something about the next iMac? If it has a detachable display which can also be free-standing, wouldn't its introduction now give the game away?
* Or could it mean another all-in-one iMac with different display sizes?
* Isn't a 'headless iMac' (i.e. a 'normal' consumer computer) even more unlikely now as there's no 17inch display for it?

 

[Mav451]

I believe some (well those who did their research), may be referring to one of the more recent, PC side "gaming" LCDs, the ViewSonic VP201B.
http://www.viewsonic.com/products/desktopdisplays/lcddisplays/proseries/vp201b/

Now, I say it is a "gaming" monitor b/c its optimum resolution is perfect for just that--1600 x 1200 on 20". (low-end gaming is typically 1024 x 768 on the PC side, with 1280 being mid, and 1600 finishing at the top)

The Apple LCDs (23" and 30", not the 20" however) get a much higher resolution. And because of the the higher resolution, the video card is stressed quite a bit more in games. That is the reason that 1600x1200 on the ViewSonic is just fine for the gamer, b/c it is not only largely compatible with most gaming resolutions (no black spaces), but not too high that the video card would be overwhelmed by resolution.

The Viewsonic is also HDTV 720p ready and of course 16ms pixel response. Thank god that 16ms response is now a standard

*oops almost forgot. The Viewsonic 20" runs for $989 @ Newegg:
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=24-116-285&depa=0

So yeah, about $300 less than the Apple 20".
If you wanna find out more about the VP201B, you can find a 6-page review @ Gamepc.com:http://www.gamepc.com/labs/view_content.asp?id=vp201b&page=1

 

[joethewraith]

Displays and PB's

When I first heard about the new displays, I was a little unsure about them, but when I saw them... The Cinema display has grown up. People should stop complaining about pricing (though an aluminum sub $1000 would be nice), inflation says prices should go up, not down. In response to the comment on apple struggling, I'd make the comment that (correct me if I'm wrong), Apple is the only one besides dell making money and that's because dell is making crap and it is pricing it to match, and if you don't care, then that's good enough to work with. I come away from my school's lab of PC's to my original G4 iMac (and ibook 700) with a sigh of relief. We have our difficulties, but it isn't a constant battle of wits like when I'm using windows. It is however time to retire the old girl.

Which brings me to the real heart of my question. I'm a high school senior working two jobs in the summer and I'm wondering about what I should get and how long I should wait. I want a 12" PB and a monitor, but I'm undecided. I really want a lightup keyboard (trivial I know), and am thinking about waiting to see if it's in the next speed bump, but if I wait, school will probably start and by that point I'll bethinking it's so close to school's start that I'll have to wait for the refresh. I'm also trying to decide between 20" and 23". I'm going to be using it for movie editing a lot and these monitors are making me drool, probably beyond my pocketbook's reach. Thoughts welcome, but please don't be negative, Peace and love, that's all I'm thinkin of!

 

[g4cubed]

Paint Chips

For all the bad that people are seeing with the new displays, there are some good notes.

1. You can now mount with any type of arm to the displys which is oh so cool. Tilt, adjust...anything you want.

2. DVI is the way to go. Now you can hook one to a PC.

3. Someone might make an adaptor with graphics card so you can go powerbook --> adaptor w/card --> 30" of pure love.

The only thing I see as a little confusing is having the usb and firewire on the back of the screen. This could be a little tricky to get to. That is unless you get a new mounting arm that swings the screen around.

If you think these are good points, you need to stop eating the lead paint chips in your room.

1.) Who cares what arm holds the screen. Maybe wall mounting would be okay for some, but not me.

2.) Who cares that you can connect it to a pc, if you own a mac.

3.) And if an adaptor were made, at what cost $$$

And confusing is not the word for the usb/firewire connection on the back. It's asinine. But this is just my opinion.

 

[lazyrighteye]

Hanging

has no one else noticed that you can hang these monitors on a wall?

Yeah, I noticed. I also noticed the FW and USB ports are on the back of the panel? Kinda rains on that wall hanging parade, eh?
Why not put the ports on the bottom of the panel? Wall hanging parade, commence.

 

[studiopix]

I'm fairly new to the Mac community...I bought my first Mac (a 2.0 PowerMac G5) last Fall. I've been waiting to buy a nice 23" display since then, I've done some price comparisons, and it looks like the new Mac displays aren't too high at all. Comparatively, the Viewsonic VP230MB is $2500 and the Sony SDM/P232 is $2100.

Are there others out there in the same class as these 3?

Yes. The HP 2335. Check out my blog here-http://rustyapple.blogspot.com/