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Xserve July, Mac Pro (PowerMac) in August?
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Intel Developer Forum September 26-28, 2006 San Francisco Moscone Center West
August 7th SteveNote tells us his point of view. Then 7 weeks later Intel tells us theirs. T-Minus 67 Days and counting... My bad.
Intel Developer Forum September 26-28, 2006 San Francisco Moscone Center West.Silentwave said:Tigerton replaced Whitefield, but I think it is still going to be followed by Dunnington, which will be 45nm process. I don't know if Tigerton's details have been leaked yet, so we don't know if its 65 or 45nm.
Dunnington may have between 4 and 32 cores according to various rumors. I'd be happy with 8
There are also rumors about Harpertown which may be a woodcrest with the 45nm process, or 8 core MCM with 12MiB L2.
We'll know more as time goes by.
Right now the brands are not known...remember just about what, 2 weeks ago, we didn't know that Conroe/Merom would be called Core 2 Duo. Woodcrest is the Xeon dual-core 5100 series if memory serves.
The good news is we're already predicting 2 generations down the line, once the mac pros are announced we'll have a better idea of where Steve Jobs is putting us as far as processors so we'll know where to watch...and with time will also come a progression in the leaks and announcements as to what will be coming up. We may still see many changes...we're possibly <1yr away from tigertons and they recently brought Tigerton out to replace Whitefield.
Whatever the future holds, it'll be bright and FAST!
August 7th SteveNote tells us his point of view. Then 7 weeks later Intel tells us theirs. T-Minus 67 Days and counting...
He was kidding See Post #168.AidenShaw said:
My bad.
It will do MP, absolutely guaranteed.
Please, gals, stop confusing "having the logic to enable cache coherency between multiple sockets" with "supporting more than one core".
Yonah is an SMP chip, so is Conroe. They just don't have the capability to support the inter-socket communications required to maintain cache coherency among multiple caches in multiple sockets.
If you don't run an SMP operating system on a Yonah, you see a single core.
If it can't do multi-processing, it's a paperweight.Silentwave said:
Please, gals, stop confusing "having the logic to enable cache coherency between multiple sockets" with "supporting more than one core".
Yonah is an SMP chip, so is Conroe. They just don't have the capability to support the inter-socket communications required to maintain cache coherency among multiple caches in multiple sockets.
If you don't run an SMP operating system on a Yonah, you see a single core.
Don't Go !!
And you'll kick yourself for buying that soon to be obsolete quad core Woodcrest system.... eBay it before it even ships!!Multimedia said:Intel Developer Forum September 26-28, 2006 San Francisco Moscone Center West.
August 7th SteveNote tells us his point of view. Then 7 weeks later Intel tells us theirs. T-Minus 67 Days and counting...
Kentsfiled x 2 or Tigerton x 2 = First 8 Core Mac Pro?
Silentwave said:
My question is can Kentsfield be used in a double socket motherboard for a total of 8 cores or not? Is that where Tigerton comes in as first generation dual capable 4 core processor?AidenShaw said:
First Conroe Core 2 Extreme Benchmarks & Roadmap Report
First Conroe Core 2 Extreme Benchmarks & Roadmap Report.
First Conroe Core 2 Extreme Benchmarks & Roadmap Report.
Attachments
Kentsfield will be single socket - it's a Conroe follow-on.Multimedia said:My question is can Kentsfield be used in a double socket motherboard for a total of 8 cores or not? Is that where Tigerton comes in as first generation dual capable 4 core processor?
Clovertown is a dual socket - it's a Woodcrest follow-on.
Tigerton is a quad socket - it's a Tulsa follow-on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Core_Microarchitecture
I use the wikipedia articles for reference all the time but judging by what it says, isn't Clovertown to Woodcrest what Kentsfield is to Conroe? simply two of them on the same chip?
Yorkfield, eight-core MCM, 45 nm, 12 MiB L2, successor to four-core Kentsfield
I'm smelling a Yorkfield, eight-core MCM, 45 nm, 12 MiB L2, successor to Kentsfield Mac Pro Q1 2008. I think short term a pair of Clovertowns will make the first 8 core Mac Pro Q2 2007.AidenShaw said:
novagamer said:XP or Vista, using Parallels or Boot Camp.
Windows? Uh, no thanks, that's why I own a Macintosh.
yes, but it's still good - especially for the new Conroe Mini-Tower/Pizza-Box
While in some (many?) cases this is not as good as a bigger chip with double the number of cores - it can be released sooner and cheaper than the larger chip. (Yields fall as the chip grows, so a double-sized chip becomes much more expensive - you get fewer per wafer, and a higher percentage of defects.)
So,
By the way, did I mention that WWDC will see a new form-factor Mac?
Since Woodcrest will push the price of the maxi-tower up by $500 or more, you won't see a single socket Woodcrest as the low end of the tower line.
Instead, Apple will fill the huge gap between the embarrassingly constrained MiniMacIntel and the frighteningly huge maxi-tower with a new mini-tower with a single (obviously) 64-bit dual-core Conroe chip.
This will have some expansion (room for a second 3.5" hard drive and/or a second optical drive), a PCIe x16 slot for a "real" graphics card (as well as integrated graphics for those who don't need more), 4 DIMM slots for up to 8 GiB of RAM, and a couple of extra PCIe x4 or x8 slots for expansion.
The case will be the same size as a home DVD player or audio component, so it can be stacked with the other components in your home theatre. (And there will be a PCIe x4 ATSC/NTSC TV tuner card and 7.1 sound to make the Apple Home Theatre offering - FrontRow will grow up to a real Media Center.)
A small stand will be included to mount the unit vertically (and the Apple logo will rotate so that it's always correctly oriented).
$949 for the entry (512 MiB, integrated graphics, 160GB, combo) [or maybe $849 with a Core 2 Solo]
$1299 for the mainstream (1 GiB, 256MiB PCIe x16, 400GB, DVD-RW)
I'll start the chants now:
Yes - but both of the follow-ons double the number of cores per socket. This is good.Silentwave said:
While in some (many?) cases this is not as good as a bigger chip with double the number of cores - it can be released sooner and cheaper than the larger chip. (Yields fall as the chip grows, so a double-sized chip becomes much more expensive - you get fewer per wafer, and a higher percentage of defects.)
So,
- The new form-factor 64-bit dual-core Conroe mini-tower will move to quad core sooner and cheaper with Kentsfield
- The maxi-tower quad core (dual dual) Woodcrest will move to an octo-core (dual quad) sooner and cheaper with Clovertown
By the way, did I mention that WWDC will see a new form-factor Mac?
Since Woodcrest will push the price of the maxi-tower up by $500 or more, you won't see a single socket Woodcrest as the low end of the tower line.
Instead, Apple will fill the huge gap between the embarrassingly constrained MiniMacIntel and the frighteningly huge maxi-tower with a new mini-tower with a single (obviously) 64-bit dual-core Conroe chip.
This will have some expansion (room for a second 3.5" hard drive and/or a second optical drive), a PCIe x16 slot for a "real" graphics card (as well as integrated graphics for those who don't need more), 4 DIMM slots for up to 8 GiB of RAM, and a couple of extra PCIe x4 or x8 slots for expansion.
The case will be the same size as a home DVD player or audio component, so it can be stacked with the other components in your home theatre. (And there will be a PCIe x4 ATSC/NTSC TV tuner card and 7.1 sound to make the Apple Home Theatre offering - FrontRow will grow up to a real Media Center.)
A small stand will be included to mount the unit vertically (and the Apple logo will rotate so that it's always correctly oriented).
$949 for the entry (512 MiB, integrated graphics, 160GB, combo) [or maybe $849 with a Core 2 Solo]
$1299 for the mainstream (1 GiB, 256MiB PCIe x16, 400GB, DVD-RW)
I'll start the chants now:
Conroe mini-tower next Tuesday !!
Wouldnt the lower-end of the Mac Pro's have the Conroe chip as well? So are you just saying that you expect Apple to fill the gap between the low-end Mac Pro and the Mac Mini? Or are you saying that they will only offer the Quad, then the mini tower, then the Mac Mini?
Sorry if I'm way off, I just woke up.
Sorry if I'm way off, I just woke up.
AidenShaw said:
I generally agree that as a result of Intel's chipsets, socket, and CPU platforms (or maybe better stated... tiers) Apple is much more likely to introduce a "mini-tower" that will live in the 1.5k to 2.5k price range. I doubt it will go much less expensive then that because of collision with the iMac and Mac mini product spaces (I believe the price of the mini-tower + LCD needs to be above the iMac to avoid heavy cannibalization of the iMac product space).
It will use Intels "Conroe" platform as its foundation (topping out possibly with the Conroe XE). IMHO the mini-tower will likely not use integrated graphics but will have an adapter in a 16-lane PCIe slot and sport at least one additional PCIe slot (or maybe an ExpressCard 54 slot instead). It likely will sport a second hard drive bay with support for hardware raid built into the Intel chipset. Also I wouldn't expect it to have more then four DIMM slots (possibly only 2).
If Apple does release a mini-tower then they will (IMHO all but have to) release a true workstation class Mac that will be based on Intel's "Woodcrest" platform (Xeon class). This will live in the 2.5k to 4+k price range an have expansion slots similar to what you see in the existing PowerMac system (possibly with more drive bays). It would likely sport eight DIMM slots.
---
Of course Apple could just release a single form factor that lived in the 2k/1.5k to 4+k range with the lower end using Conroe (single socket system) and possibly one high-end model sporting Woodcrest with dual-sockets (quad core system).... or they may just save the quad core until next year when the quad core version of the Conroe comes out (Kentsfield).
When The Intel Quad Will Emerge Is Anybody's Guess
This is what I expect. Cranking up a whole new line at this point seems premature to me. Perhaps next year when more core-speed choices emerge. Recent posts by Aiden indicate he thinks the Quad Core Woodcrest will be DOA due to Kentsfield's pending arrival as soon as this winter 2007. It's anybody's guess if we'll see an Intel Quad this year.shawnce said:
shawnce said:
I also think this is going to be the case. I don't see the point in creating a new line of products that will be priced from the 1.5-2k range, when there are already low end of the Powermacs in that range, and assuming the Mac Pro will be similarly priced, there really isn't a point in making a new line of products in that range.
It'll be interesting to see what they do about the intel quad.
Merom kills Yonah, Clovertown doesn't kill Woodcrest
My computer budget is a bit above a million a year ($1.3M). I have to forecast 16 to 18 months ahead for the budget.
I *like* being able to see the roadmaps. I know it's completely disorienting for Apple users to know what's going to be available in 3/6/9/12/18/24 months. But for the rest of us it's a way of life to be able to plan purchases.
I'll buy a ton of dual-dual Woodcrests, knowing that I'll get good use from them for quite a few months. I won't buy two tons - the next ton of servers and workstations will be Clovertowns when those come out.
____________________________________________
This is totally unlike the Yonah -> Merom transition. Merom has capabilities (64-bit) that Yonah doesn't. Yonah's future ends when Merom ships - Yonah becomes the poor "Celeron" of the lineup.
Clovertown should be faster than Woodcrest on multi-threaded (or embarrassingly parallel) applications, but the per-thread capability of Clovertown will be almost the same as Woodcrest.
Except for embarrassingly parallel apps, it becomes harder and harder to scale to more cores. Not many apps will be faster on Clovertown - you'll just be able to run more of them.
For multiple apps - two dual-dual Woodcrests should have about the same throughput as one dual-quad Clovertown. The dual-quad is more convenient, but no new capabilities.
On the other hand, with 64-bit operating systems and apps - a Merom is infinitely faster than a Yonah.
In the Intel world, "DOA" isn't a good term. "Expected lifetime" is a better one.
Yonah has the shortest "expected lifetime" of any Intel chip architecture that I can think of off the top of my head. Less than 9 months after intro, it'll be replaced by a chip that's radically better - and one with a much longer lifetime.
Woodcrest, on the other hand, isn't a great leap from Paxville/Dempsey - faster and lower power consumption, but the same features. Woodcrest will live on in parallel to Clovertown. The per thread performance will be similar, so for many applications Woodcrest will be good enough even though Clovertown is available.
Oh no, not DOA at all. I should have surrounded the post with smilies.Multimedia said:Quote:
Originally Posted by AidenShaw
Don't Go !! And you'll kick yourself for buying that soon to be obsolete quad core Woodcrest system.... eBay it before it even ships!!
I take it you believe a Woodcrest Quad is DOA.
My computer budget is a bit above a million a year ($1.3M). I have to forecast 16 to 18 months ahead for the budget.
I *like* being able to see the roadmaps. I know it's completely disorienting for Apple users to know what's going to be available in 3/6/9/12/18/24 months. But for the rest of us it's a way of life to be able to plan purchases.
I'll buy a ton of dual-dual Woodcrests, knowing that I'll get good use from them for quite a few months. I won't buy two tons - the next ton of servers and workstations will be Clovertowns when those come out.
____________________________________________
This is totally unlike the Yonah -> Merom transition. Merom has capabilities (64-bit) that Yonah doesn't. Yonah's future ends when Merom ships - Yonah becomes the poor "Celeron" of the lineup.
Clovertown should be faster than Woodcrest on multi-threaded (or embarrassingly parallel) applications, but the per-thread capability of Clovertown will be almost the same as Woodcrest.
Except for embarrassingly parallel apps, it becomes harder and harder to scale to more cores. Not many apps will be faster on Clovertown - you'll just be able to run more of them.
For multiple apps - two dual-dual Woodcrests should have about the same throughput as one dual-quad Clovertown. The dual-quad is more convenient, but no new capabilities.
On the other hand, with 64-bit operating systems and apps - a Merom is infinitely faster than a Yonah.
In the Intel world, "DOA" isn't a good term. "Expected lifetime" is a better one.
Yonah has the shortest "expected lifetime" of any Intel chip architecture that I can think of off the top of my head. Less than 9 months after intro, it'll be replaced by a chip that's radically better - and one with a much longer lifetime.
Woodcrest, on the other hand, isn't a great leap from Paxville/Dempsey - faster and lower power consumption, but the same features. Woodcrest will live on in parallel to Clovertown. The per thread performance will be similar, so for many applications Woodcrest will be good enough even though Clovertown is available.
Conroe takes a completely different motherboard from Woodcrest.it5five said:
If we assume that the maxi-tower is still a premium, expensive case - it makes a maxi-tower Conroe much more expensive that Conroe systems from everyone else.
It seems more likely that the low end maxi-tower will be a dual-socket motherboard with a single Woodcrest installed.
The second chip could be a BTO option - or even an after-market upgrade like the other Intel vendors.
(I have a small pile of Xeons that I've thrown out after getting faster ones from Newegg.com.)I'm assuming that Apple will find a way to add more expansion to the maxi-tower. If it could hold 6 disks and 2 optical, then it would make sense to offer a single chip version for people who want to build a file server.
Yes. And for most it's a much more accurate and honest term.iGary said:
Apple's use of the term "pro" is divorced from the usual meaning of the term anyway. Lots of real professionals use MacBooks, and lots of amateurs with excess money use MBPs.
In fact, "Pro" is as much a fashion statement as a feature differentiation on many Apples.
It sounds like your ego is on par with your avatar's....iGary said:
Is there some sort of test or certificate that is issued to prove that one is a "pro" rather than an "amateur" computer user? Is an "enthusiast" somewhere between pro and amateur?
Does the governing board of the Professional Society of Computer Professionals publish statistics on their members' computer preferences? How do they count people who use both?
AidenShaw said:It sounds like your ego is on par with your avatar's....
Is there some sort of test or certificate that is issued to prove that one is a "pro" rather than an "amateur" computer user?
No, I just think that a lot of people who get paid for their artistic, photographic, design (etc.) work (i.e. "professinoals") seek out the Mac platform, more so than PC's, so I think the term is fitting.
I dont' suppoes the name Mac Pro is going to dissaude you?
