Xserve July, Mac Pro (PowerMac) in August?

[AidenShaw]

two reasons why...

No , However is make no sense to use a woodcrest unless u are going to use both sockets. The motherboard alone cost 2-3X what a Conroe Mobo would cost, plus the use of EEC ram which cost 25-30% more then regular DDR2.

The Woodcrest Mobo will support up to 64 GiB of RAM, Conroe is likely to top out at 8 GiB or less.

If you need lots of RAM for an application that can't use more than two threads, a Woodcrest with a single chip would make sense.

Consider if Apple uses the new Conroe exclusively in a small Mini-Tower, and Woodcrest exclusively in a PMG5-sized maxi-tower. (And if the new Mac Pro tower has disk/optical/IO expandability in line with its extraordinary size...)

In that case, a single chip Woodcrest would save money for people who need expandability but not added CPU power.

In the Wintel world, most Xeon systems are available with a single chip - with field-upgrade to dual chip. (The upgrade kit contains the second CPU, heat sink, and usually a VRM card.) This is a nice option for people who aren't sure if their application needs a second chip - buy one and add the second later if you need more horsepower.

...I guess that makes 3 reasons...

 

[retroneo]

The nice FedEx man delivered two Woodcrest servers to me right after lunch.

Xeon 5150 (2.66 GHz, 4 MiB L2, dual socket, dual core)
4GiB of RAM.

Just finishing the Win2k3 installations now. Oh boy!

Could you install a cracked version of Mac OS X 10.4.6 on them and give us some benchmarks?

 

[AidenShaw]

Could you install a cracked version of Mac OS X 10.4.6 on them and give us some benchmarks?

No.

That would mean stealing software from Apple.

I'm not a thief, I don't use warez.

 

[jiggie2g]

No.

That would mean stealing software from Apple.

I'm not a thief, I don't use warez.

Well i'm not a thief but i use warez , if they are given to me. I won't download them myself. I would never pay for Windows or M$ Office. I did pay for Jaguar , Panther and Tiger on my old iMac G4.

Aiden if someone is going to use more then 8GB(which would cost nearly as much as a mac anyhow) then I don't think they would have any problem buying a Quad woodcrest Mac.

The Powermac/MacPro is a Highend Desktop and Stev'O has suckerd you all into believeing it's a workstation(it can be modified into one) , if thats the case then any Alienware gaming Rig / Faclon PC / Dell XPS or even my OC'd Athlon X2 setup is a worstation class machine being that they all perfrom very close to eachother.

as far as your Pizza box "Dream On" never going to happen Apple would have addresed this years ago if they cared about the High-Mid end market they feel people will either buy the top iMac or Low end mac Pro.

Don't be suprised either if the MacPro ends up all Conroe and Steve uses this as as stop gap until Kentsfield arrives for MWSF. He did it with Yonah.

 

[shawnce]

Well i'm not a thief but i use warez , if they are given to me.

 

[AidenShaw]

Well i'm not a thief but i use warez , if they are given to me. I won't download them myself. I would never pay for Windows or M$ Office.

No court of law would rule that using a CD instead of BitTorrent changes it from stealing to something legal.

It's nice, though, that you only steal from Microsoft and not Apple.

 

[THX1139]

Well i'm not a thief but i use warez , if they are given to me. I won't download them myself.

Okay... so you're saying that you don't steal, but you use stolen stuff? And that make you what? Innocent bystander?


Shifting gears. Did anyone happen to notice that Boxx has announced a new workstation that uses Woodcrest? Yep, they are already to go, looks like they are just waiting for the official release. Kind of wish Apple would do that. I think that would create just as much buzz as a media event. They could put it right on the front page "Coming Soon" etc. Surely they know what the machines are going to be by now? They probably have a bunch of them sitting there waiting for chips. Least I'm sure they have test models!

Boxx even has a picture and a page to order the new system. If you click on configure, it takes you to a survey form.

What kinda surprised me was that Boxx is only charging $3000 for entry level price....and that is for a Quad.

I hope Apple does as well or better. I take back what I posted earlier that I didn't think Apple would release Woodcrest in anything but a top-end system. As long as Apple doesn't get too greedy on their margin, Woodcrest is doable. I would like to see an entry level tower with one Woodcrest for around 2K, with option for me to add/change to another processor later.

Here's the specs for the Boxx:

Base Configuration $2,995

Microsoft Windows/SATA hard drives

Two Dual-Core Intel® Xeon™ 5130 Series processors

2GB FBDIMM DDR2 667 REG ECC (2 x 1GB FBDIMMs)

nVIDIA® Quadro® FX 560 Pro Video Edition

80 GB 7,200 rpm Serial ATA 8MB Cache Drive

16x Dual Layer DVD+/-RW Writer

Windows™ XP Professional Edition SP2

Black 104 Key Keyboard

Logitech® MX310 Corded Optical Mouse

 

[AidenShaw]

Slow Woodcrests are cheap...

Base Configuration $2,995

Two Dual-Core Intel® Xeon™ 5130 Series processors

Intel Woodcrest Pricing

Processor    Clock Speed/FSB     Price
 
Xeon 5160    3.0GHz / 1333MHz    $851
Xeon 5150    2.66GHz / 1333MHz   $690
Xeon 5148    2.33GHz / 1333MHz   $519
Xeon 5140    2.33GHz / 1333MHz   $455
Xeon 5130    2.0GHz / 1333MHz    $316
Xeon 5120    1.86GHz / 1066MHz   $256
Xeon 5110    1.60GHz / 1066MHz   $209

 

[THX1139]

Slow Woodcrests are cheap

Intel Woodcrest Pricing

Processor    Clock Speed/FSB     Price
 
Xeon 5160    3.0GHz / 1333MHz    $851
Xeon 5150    2.66GHz / 1333MHz   $690
Xeon 5148    2.33GHz / 1333MHz   $519
Xeon 5140    2.33GHz / 1333MHz   $455
Xeon 5130    2.0GHz / 1333MHz    $316
Xeon 5120    1.86GHz / 1066MHz   $256
Xeon 5110    1.60GHz / 1066MHz   $209

Okay... but we don't know what Apple is paying for them. I sorta doubt Apple will use the 5160 in the Quad. Probably the 5150, just to show the speed increase over the Quad G5. Not sure how that translates to price, guess it depends on what design they use for the box and what goes inside. Maybe all they need is one tower model and have the chips and graphics cards as BTO. Base configuration for around $1500, customize to your needs.

 

[it5five]

As nice as that would be, I think it's more likely they will stick to the 3 different choices that they offer now.

Plus, how could you buy that at the Apple store? Would they only offer the base configuration?

Also, I think it's highly unlikely, since they don't do that sort of set-up with any of their other computers.

 

[xUKHCx]

so we could have the ill-fated 3ghz

at a premium though. I personally think they will go for the 2.66 ghz or 2.33ghz. Reasoning well looking at the rest of the transition purely athe the ghz rating (yeah yeah i know it is not all about ghz but there is quite an obvious trend. When comparing the top end last of the ppc chips to the bottom intel ones in their respective machines. The only drop is in the iMac which fell .27 ghz, the rest all show an increase, even if the Powermac lost that .27 ghz the closet chip would be the 2.33 ghz, and if they followed the upwards increase it would put them up at 2.66ghz or even the 3 ghz, but due to costing i reckon the sweet spot will be 2.66 ghz, giving a big increase in speed (maybe not that big for the quad) while keeping the pricing relatively similar.

Mac mini 1.42 ghz -> 1.5 ghz
iMac 2.1 ghz -> 1.83 ghz
iBook 1.4 ghz -> 1.83 ghz
Powerbook 1.67 ghz - 1.83 ghz

Powermac 2.5 ghz -> 2.33 or 2.66 ghz

 

[jiggie2g]

Intel Woodcrest Pricing

Processor    Clock Speed/FSB     Price
 
Xeon 5160    3.0GHz / 1333MHz    $851
Xeon 5150    2.66GHz / 1333MHz   $690
Xeon 5148    2.33GHz / 1333MHz   $519
[B]Xeon 5140    2.33GHz / 1333MHz   $455[/B] 
Xeon 5130    2.0GHz / 1333MHz    $316
Xeon 5120    1.86GHz / 1066MHz   $256
Xeon 5110    1.60GHz / 1066MHz   $209

The Xenon 5140 is all you need to beat the G5 , even though it's clocked lower the better core and L2 more then make up 4 this.

Xenon 5140@2.33ghz + 20% = 2796mhz G5

I call this "The 20% Rule" this will be used to measure Core 2 against G5 and AMD64 since all clock speeds are similar.

and to answer THX1139 about my use of warez, 1st of all i mostly use freeware stuff like ,

AVG Anti-Virus
Thunderbird
Firefox
DVD Shrink
DVD Decrypter
ZoneAlarm
Picasa 2
Google Earth
Yahoo Widget Engine
TrillianBasic 3
WeatherBug
Adobe PDF

you can run a perfectly stable PC with just freeware. the only warez i have are the really expensive stuff from major corps that can take the hit...I guess the Suits will have to wait an extra week for that Ferrari. smaller companies that make good sofware like AnyDVD i will gladly support and pay for thier stuff. however I refuse to pay for XP Pro or Office. especially when both are passed around freely like AOL discs

 

[jiggie2g]

Core 2 Duo Performance List

Here is is comparison list that I put together to show why Conore's in a MacPro wouldn't be a bad Idea.

Let's list the Desktop CPU's

Perfomance equvilancy is based on "The 20% Rule" , these are rough estimates , however perfomance should be even better based on most of the benchmarks i've seen.

C2E X6800 (2.93 GHz, FSB1066, 4 MB L2) : $999 = FX/G5@3.51
C2D E6700 (2.66 GHz, FSB1066, 4 MB L2) : $530 = FX/G5@3.20ghz
C2D E6600 (2.40 GHz, FSB1066, 4 MB L2) : $316 = FX 62/G5@2.88ghz
C2D E6400 (2.13 GHz, FSB1066, 2 MB L2) : $224 = FX 60/G5@2.56
C2D E6300 (1.86 GHz, FSB1066, 2 MB L2) : $186 = X2 4400+/G4@2.23ghz

I am very excited and cain't wait to get my E6700 for it's good clock speed and 10x mulitplier....3.8ghz here i come.

This is interesting:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=101926

4Ghz on Air:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=101796&conroe

Sorry for the Double Post

 

[THX1139]

(edit)...the only warez i have are the really expensive stuff from major corps that can take the hit...I guess the Suits will have to wait an extra week for that Ferrari.(edit)

Oh, okay... well, since you put it that way, that makes perfect sense. I mean why buy from companies that can afford to give it to you! Now if you could just figure out how to get a free computer to run it all on.

 

[THX1139]

The Xenon 5140 is all you need to beat the G5 , even though it's clocked lower the better core and L2 more then make up 4 this.

Xenon 5140@2.33ghz + 20% = 2796mhz G5

Yeah, and that would make the Quad around $4000 give or take. Then they could use Conroe for the entry and mid-range for Rev.A. Then change over when Kentsfield ships.

Boxx is using the 5130 and they are selling just at $3000 for the base model. I think Apple has a bigger mark-up and still uses some expensive components, so not sure going with the 5120 will be affordable in their price point. I'd think they will want to show a bit of a speed bump over the current G5's, but they can't raise the price from the G5 Quad without justifying it. The only way, would be to throw that 3.0 in there hoping people will pay the increased cost. Would people choke on the price of a Quad 3.0 at $5K+ ?

 

[jiggie2g]

Yeah, and that would make the Quad around $4000 give or take. Then they could use Conroe for the entry and mid-range for Rev.A. Then change over when Kentsfield ships.

Boxx is using the 5130 and they are selling just at $3000 for the base model. I think Apple has a bigger mark-up and still uses some expensive components, so not sure going with the 5120 will be affordable in their price point. I'd think they will want to show a bit of a speed bump over the current G5's, but they can't raise the price from the G5 Quad without justifying it. The only way, would be to throw that 3.0 in there hoping people will pay the increased cost. Would people choke on the price of a Quad 3.0 at $5K+ ?

Yeah Boxx has a rep for selling expensive but hardcore rigs , I told people all along that the Quad will not make it in the MacPro , they can charge whatever they hell they want with Xserves because Dreamworks , ILM ,WETA and Pixar will pay those prices but no one else will especially when Photoshop is not even ready. Though I think Dell will have Apple beat in the Very high end server market with 8 and 16 way AMD rigs.

It's going to be hard for Apple to compete in the High end when everyone else will have the same spec set-up for $500 less. With the Macbook/Pro , iMac , Mac Mini they cater to certain markets and offer something different , however with the demise of the G5 Apple will be pressured to offer something innovative besides fancy software in the high end.

It won't be fun for Apple when tech savvy people can build a killer Conroe rig at 40% of the price and still have better specs.

I think this is why Steve'O is more focused on Content distribution and Consumer electronics. When Apple signed with Intel they automactically gave up the power they had on the hardware end of Mac's. So don't be surprised come christmas time you walk into BestBuy and see that $1199 Hp Pavillion match specs with a mid end MacPro. Except that Hp comes with a free LCD monitor and printer....lol

Lastly here is what I expect :

Aug '06/WWDC
MacPro (all Conroe)..shipping asap
Core 2 Extreme X6800(2.93ghz)
Core 2 Duo E6700(2.67ghz)
Core 2 Duo E6600(2.40ghz)

Jan '07/MWSF
MacPro(Kentsfield/Conore)..Shipping Feb '07
Core 2 Extreme@2.93-3.2ghz Quadcore
Core 2 Extreme X6900(3.2ghz)
Core 2 Duo E6800(2.93ghz)

They will take a slight step backwards and "Leap Ahead" . just like they did with thier notebooks(they use core 1 at the expense of 64bit support) in exchange for better tech. just in time for Adobe and M$ to announce Photoshop CS 3 and Office 2007 at MWSF.

 

[AidenShaw]

The only warez i have are the really expensive stuff from major corps that can take the hit...I guess the Suits will have to wait an extra week for that Ferrari.

Pay for the cheap stuff, steal the expensive stuff - whatever rationalization floats your boat. It's still theft.

Interesting that one of your "freeware" programs exists mainly to steal copyrighted content from DVDs, though.

I think that I'll bookmark your posts to reference the next time some inflated ego posts a line like "only PeeCee users steal software"....

 

[AidenShaw]

They will take a slight step backwards and "Leap Ahead" . just like they did with thier notebooks(they use core 1 at the expense of 64bit support) in exchange for better tech.

Umm, OSX is 32-bit, just like the G4 chips in the iBook and PowerBook.

Only the G5 iMac has gone backwards, although since OSX only gives lip service to 64-bit support and since the G5 iMac only supported 2 GiB of RAM it really doesn't matter....

 

[kuwan]

Aiden if someone is going to use more then 8GB(which would cost nearly as much as a mac anyhow) then I don't think they would have any problem buying a Quad woodcrest Mac.

8 GB of RAM doesn't cost very much:

$680 for 8 1GB DIMMs
$818 for 4 2GB DIMMs

 

[kuwan]

Umm, OSX is 32-bit, just like the G4 chips in the iBook and PowerBook.

Only the G5 iMac has gone backwards, although since OSX only gives lip service to 64-bit support and since the G5 iMac only supported 2 GiB of RAM it really doesn't matter....

OS X is more of a 32-bit/64-bit hybrid. The Kernel is basically 32-bit for its own address space but supports large 64-bit address spaces for applications. It also supports running both 32-bit and 64-bit applications at the same time - this is due to the much better design of the PPC platform. PPC was originally designed as a 64-bit platform with a 32-bit subset. So running on a 32-bit/64-bit hybrid operating system such as Tiger was anticipated when PPC was designed.

Contrast this with the mess that x86 is - originally designed as a 16-bit platform extended to 32-bits with IA-32 and now extended again to 64-bits by AMD. In order to take advantage of the new 64-bit improvements you need a 64-bit kernel; in other words, when running in 32-bit mode on a 32-bit operating system, like Tiger, you cannot run 64-bit applications. So don't expect to be running anything 64-bit on the new Mac Pro hardware. For that you'll probably have to wait for Leopard next year.

Count this as a big reason why Apple will probably continue to sell some PPC PowerMacs after the Mac Pros are introduced. If anyone absolutely needs to run a 64-bit program, such as Mathmatica, then they'll need a PPC Mac.

 

[AidenShaw]

It also supports running both 32-bit and 64-bit applications at the same time - this is due to the much better design of the PPC platform.

Windows x64 also runs 32-bit and 64-bit applications simultaneously - not sure what you mean about "much better design" in this context.

In order to take advantage of the new 64-bit improvements you need a 64-bit kernel; in other words, when running in 32-bit mode on a 32-bit operating system, like Tiger, you cannot run 64-bit applications.

Actually, 32-bit Windows systems support up to 64 GiB of RAM and can run 64-bit applications....

If anyone absolutely needs to run a 64-bit program, such as Mathmatica, then they'll need a PPC Mac.

Or Windows x64.

 

[BenRoethig]

Here is is comparison list that I put together to show why Conore's in a MacPro wouldn't be a bad Idea.

Let's list the Desktop CPU's

Perfomance equvilancy is based on "The 20% Rule" , these are rough estimates , however perfomance should be even better based on most of the benchmarks i've seen.

C2E X6800 (2.93 GHz, FSB1066, 4 MB L2) : $999 = FX/G5@3.51
C2D E6700 (2.66 GHz, FSB1066, 4 MB L2) : $530 = FX/G5@3.20ghz
C2D E6600 (2.40 GHz, FSB1066, 4 MB L2) : $316 = FX 62/G5@2.88ghz
C2D E6400 (2.13 GHz, FSB1066, 2 MB L2) : $224 = FX 60/G5@2.56
C2D E6300 (1.86 GHz, FSB1066, 2 MB L2) : $186 = X2 4400+/G4@2.23ghz

I am very excited and cain't wait to get my E6700 for it's good clock speed and 10x mulitplier....3.8ghz here i come.

This is interesting:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=101926

4Ghz on Air:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=101796&conroe

Sorry for the Double Post

The chip is only half the equation. To use Conroe, you also have to use the P965 or 975x chipset. They don't have the pro features that the 5000x does. It'll probably be a safer bet in the long run for all the Pro Macs to have the same motherboard and give the consumer their choice of woodcrest configurations.

 

[AidenShaw]

"pro" features

The chip is only half the equation. To use Conroe, you also have to use the P965 or 975x chipset. They don't have the pro features that the 5000x does.

Oh no, now the overused "pro" label is being used for chipsets as well....

Curse those "amateur" chipsets!

It'll probably be a safer bet in the long run for all the Pro Macs to have the same motherboard and give the consumer their choice of woodcrest configurations.

Right - but I still expect to see the new form factor 64-bit dual-core mini-tower "Mac Amateur".

 

[it5five]

I still think its likely that they keep the same lineup they have now. If someone really needs a tower, the low end powermac is only 2k, and I have a hard time seeing how Apple will competively price this mini tower you think they will release. Of course I would love to be wrong, but I'm not holding my breath for the mini tower.

 

[kuwan]

Windows x64 also runs 32-bit and 64-bit applications simultaneously - not sure what you mean about "much better design" in this context.

Yes, but only 64-bit Windows can run both 32-bit and 64-bit applications. An x86-64 chip can run in two modes, from Wikipedia:

Long Mode
The intended primary mode of operation of the architecture; it is a combination of the processor's native 64-bit mode and a 32-bit/16-bit compatibility mode. It is used by 64-bit operating systems. Under a 64-bit operating system, 64-bit, 32-bit and 16-bit (or 80286) protected mode applications may be supported...
Legacy Mode
The mode used by 16-bit (protected mode or real mode) and 32-bit operating systems. In this mode, the processor acts just like an x86 processor, and only 16-bit or 32-bit code can be executed. 64-bit programs will not run. (emphasis mine)​

The much better design of the PPC architecture that I refer to is its ability to run in both 32-bit & 64-bit mode under either a 32-bit or 64-bit operating system with no penalties. Since PPC was designed as a 64-bit architecture its 32-bit subset was designed to run in the same environment.

With x86-64 you can only run 32-bit/64-bit applications at the same time when you are running on a 64-bit operating system.

Actually, 32-bit Windows systems support up to 64 GiB of RAM and can run 64-bit applications....

32-bit Windows may be able to support up to 64 GB of RAM, but it cannot run 64-bit applications. Each process would be limited to its own 32-bit (4 GB) address space. See above.

Or Windows x64.

The discussion is about 64-bit support on the Mac platform. Neither I nor Apple is interested in what 64-bit Windows can or cannot do. If they feel that they have customers that require 64-bit support then they'll keep selling them machines that can support 64-bit applications. Until Leopard ships this means PPC G5 PowerMacs.