Yes, your MacBook Pro is running too hot, and yes, it is Apple's fault.

[GGJstudios]

Had you read the OP, you would know my stance on this. Apple's manufacturing is to blame for the heat issue.

The fallacy in your argument is that there is no "heat issue". As already stated, millions upon millions of Mac notebooks are used every day with absolutely zero heat-related failures.

Your argument assumes that users will be constantly "encoding a 40+ minute 1080p Youtube video", which is simply untrue. Most users do not push their computers anywhere near its limits. For the very small minority who do, and for those who feel compelled to "tinker" with their computers rather than use them for productive purposes, they're free to monkey around with the innards.

For the overwhelming majority, they can use their Mac notebooks for many years without worrying about heat-related failures, as they have been for many years.

 

[Doward]

The fallacy in your argument is that there is no "heat issue". As already stated, millions upon millions of Mac notebooks are used every day with absolutely zero heat-related failures.

Your argument assumes that users will be constantly "encoding a 40+ minute 1080p Youtube video", which is simply untrue. Most users do not push their computers anywhere near its limits. For the very small minority who do, and for those who feel compelled to "tinker" with their computers rather than use them for productive purposes, they're free to monkey around with the innards.

For the overwhelming majority, they can use their Mac notebooks for many years without worrying about heat-related failures, as they have been for many years.

The fact that a computer can not run 100% without severe throttling issues in order to keep itself from thermal shutdown tells me that your standards of quality are not the same as mine.

Would you be happy with a four slot toaster that has issues if you use more than two slots at a time?

Would you be happy with a cell phone that you can use half of the battery only?

Would you be content with a car that is capable of using only half a tank of gas?

I think the analogy is clear - I bought a computer expecting to be able to utilize 100% of it. My computer should not have to clock itself down unless there is an actual hardware issue.

The fact that you argue there is no heat issue astounds me. There are how many posts of people complaining about their Macbook Pros getting hot and slowing down? To the point that Apple had to release a software patch to keep the system from killing itself?

 

[AlexMaximus]

Economy and its Illusions...

Pretty positive those 100s of Apple engineers know better than you.

Laptops have always have (much) higher temps than Desktops.

I am an Engineer and work in fields like Thermodynamic as well. Fact is, the OP is correct with his technical point of view. But do not blame the Apple Engineers for that. The Point here is the definition of Quality. Quality in the manufacturing term of view, to fulfil the requirements. This is exactly what apple does, they fulfil the requirements - plain and simple. Not more!
Absolutely you can polish the hell out of that heat sink to gain a view degrees. But the point is, it would not be economical. I spell it again:

E C O N O M I C A L

Apple is successful because thy make a profit, and NOT because they make the best technical laptops possible on the market. Its about cash-flow, margin and profit. The game is about shareholders. Apple is in business because the market allows it. They DO NOT have the freedom in the market to provide the best technical product possible, just because their name is Apple. They exist because of a mediocre product at best, but a superior sexy marketing machine that cant be matched at the moment, selling it as a life style and trend product.

My humble recommendation to the Original poster: Your technical expertise might be outstanding but do not forget the economic side of the game.
Its a bitter pill to swallow... I know..... but don't hate the players, hate the game...

 

[ColdCase]

Just about all laptops run hot, the web is full of folks that push their laptops gaming and pull heats sinks, polishing them and the chips and properly applying thermal past, regardless of laptop vendor.

I've removed heat from components for a livin where fabs were outlawed (similar to Jobs distain for noisy fans). That initial contact is important, but how well the heat that was just extracted gets removed to ambient air is just as important, heat tubes and whatever.

Regardless of how well you design and manufacture these compact assemblies, they will overheat. So if you are going to have to design in fail safe thermal protection mechanisms, why not take advantage of them to reduce size, weight, power, manufacturing costs while providing max performance for 90-99% .

My rMBP 15 runs surprisingly cool, much cooler than our 2008 MBP or MB.

Those that intend to run max CPU for extended periods of time need to move to the desktop where there is enough size and space for effective cooling. Personally I don't want to be paying for that technology in each of my laptops where good enough is good enough.

 

[OatmealRocks]

Would you be happy with a four slot toaster that has issues if you use more than two slots at a time?

Would you be happy with a cell phone that you can use half of the battery only?

Would you be content with a car that is capable of using only half a tank of gas?

I think the analogy is clear - I bought a computer expecting to be able to utilize 100% of it. My computer should not have to clock itself down unless there is an actual hardware issue.

This pretty much sums up why I rarely post on this forum anymore. Crazies or trolls have made this forum ridiculous. Unrealistic high expectations which I seriously wonder if it ever existed for other PC makers.

Would not surprise me to hear someone blame Apple for not using gold foil inside the laptop as a better heat conductor. Further backing it up with articles at a granular level analysis of different metals and how our laptops should me NASA level of engineering. I mean other laptop makers have raised the bar equally right. RIGHT?

For the OP, if it is too hot for you, return it and get something else. I wish you luck.

 

[KBS756]

The fact that a computer can not run 100% without severe throttling issues in order to keep itself from thermal shutdown tells me that your standards of quality are not the same as mine.

Tell me where my system throttles itself? What temperature do these processors throttle down because from what I can tell my retina macbook pro 2.8 does not throttle down under max load.

 

[leman]

The fact that a computer can not run 100% without severe throttling issues in order to keep itself from thermal shutdown tells me that your standards of quality are not the same as mine.

I have played games on my rMBP and ran statistical simulations fully loading all 8 cores - for hours and hours. Never noticed any throttling issues at all.

 

[Queen6]

I have played games on my rMBP and ran statistical simulations fully loading all 8 cores - for hours and hours. Never noticed any throttling issues at all.

I can validate the same: My own 15" Retina will pump out 3GHz + 24/7 under full load by running Intel`s Power Monitor any throttling is extremely easy to see first hand in realtime. Mac`s are not perfect, nor are they as bad as some would paint them out to be. As with all mass-produced product there is a failure rate and imperfection.

 

[dacoolest]

my MBP is heating too. But it has never shown any problems because of that. No restarting or any kind of effect from the heat. As long as it stays like that, i do not mind the heat.

 

[GGJstudios]

The fact that a computer can not run 100% without severe throttling issues in order to keep itself from thermal shutdown tells me that your standards of quality are not the same as mine.

Like most other Mac users, I've never had problems with throttling or with my Mac not running at 100%. My standards are likely the same as most Mac users. If your needs require something more than what Apple offers, you should have done your homework before making a purchase.

I've seen " pseudo experts" join this forum from time to time over the years, claiming to know more or better than the engineering or software development teams at Apple. They like to gripe about the fact that Apple products are inferior in some way and try to flaunt some knowledge they claim to have, even if such knowledge came to them in their most recent college class. The problem with their arguments is that they aren't knowledgeable enough to consider all the factors that Apple does in making its product decisions.

Apple makes computers for the masses of average users. By definition that means they're not trying to build the "ultimate computer", and they're not trying to build a computer to satisfy the extreme demands that some users may have. Apple sells around a million computers per month. At that volume, a balance must be achieved between performance and cost effectiveness. They wouldn't be selling that many if they tried to satisfy the whims of the most demanding users and ended up with a MBP price of $8000.

The bottom line is that MBPs have no heat issues for most users. If you have problems with heat, it's very likely you bought the wrong computer for your needs. You have no one to blame for that but yourself. Do your homework next time and then buy or build a computer that better meets your requirements.

 

[Doward]

Like most other Mac users, I've never had problems with throttling or with my Mac not running at 100%. My standards are likely the same as most Mac users. If your needs require something more than what Apple offers, you should have done your homework before making a purchase.

Evidence of serious throttling in MBAs:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3991/apples-2010-macbook-air-11-13inch-reviewed/6

Rather than get hung up on the Air vs Pro, simply note that Apple has demonstrated that they use throttling to cover up their lack of quality heatsink contact.

My needs are irrelevant to this discussion.

How many threads are there on here regarding temperatures being insensibly high? Perhaps all of those threads are simply wrong, in your opinion? You seem to know most other Mac users, by your admission.

Absolutely you can polish the hell out of that heat sink to gain a view degrees. But the point is, it would not be economical. I spell it again:

E C O N O M I C A L

Now this is a very good point - I'm an engineer, not an accountant. We rarely see eye to eye, don't we?

I would like to see Apple simply use anodic leveling - that would give a much better contact patch, and how much simpler can you get? Submerge and hit the GO button!

You can get an EXTREMELY fine finish, with very little labor involved.

I think the most disappointing item in all of this, is that there is a clear and demonstrable method of helping a hot running MacBook Pro run much better, and so far only *one* response discussing anything outside of the normal Apple rhetoric.

Apple is well known for keeping their profit margins. One extra step could really handle the only major problem I've found with the Macbook series of laptops.

Apple makes computers for the masses of average users. By definition that means they're not trying to build the "ultimate computer", and they're not trying to build a computer to satisfy the extreme demands that some users may have. Apple sells around a million computers per month. At that volume, a balance must be achieved between performance and cost effectiveness. They wouldn't be selling that many if they tried to satisfy the whims of the most demanding users and ended up with a MBP price of $8000.

Do you even read what you write? Exactly what does the 'Pro' in Macbook Pro stand for, if they are building an 'average' laptop? I could have sworn they made another laptop, that was less 'Pro'. Oh, if only I could think of it.

Apple strives for one thing - best in industry. Explain to me where something that even done BY HAND would cost less than $15 (assuming 1/hour, which is slow, considering they could be done right after heatsink production, or before assembly) would triple the price of a Macbook Pro?

I do love the passive-aggressive 'pseudo-experts' comment, though. You have yet to disprove anything I've shown, you've only output rhetoric without substance.

This pretty much sums up why I rarely post on this forum anymore. Crazies or trolls have made this forum ridiculous. Unrealistic high expectations which I seriously wonder if it ever existed for other PC makers.

Would not surprise me to hear someone blame Apple for not using gold foil inside the laptop as a better heat conductor. Further backing it up with articles at a granular level analysis of different metals and how our laptops should me NASA level of engineering. I mean other laptop makers have raised the bar equally right. RIGHT?

For the OP, if it is too hot for you, return it and get something else. I wish you luck.

Nonsense - the 17" Late 2011 MBP is the best all around system for my needs, not that they are relevant to this discussion.

These aren't high expectations. Demanding 3TB SSDs in a 2.5" form factor from SLC NAND under $50 is an unreasonably high demand.

Asking Apple to consider adding a single step (electropolishing the copper base) of their heatsink to reduce all the noise about MBP running hot, is not a 'high expectation' by any sense of the imagination.

Standard Apple rhetoric. "Oh it's the best! Don't like it? Oh well, go away."

Is there no concept of discussion on these boards?

 

[ls1dreams]

Well, considering that millions upon millions of Mac notebooks are running without failure for many, many years, Apple is right. I'm posting this from a 5 year old MBP that I've hammered extensively for 14+ hours a day, almost every day, with no reapplying thermal paste, no fan control apps, no cooling pads, nothing beyond just using it. It still runs like it did day one. The vast majority of Mac users can report similar experiences. If temps were a significant problem, there would be mass recalls, floods of news articles, etc.

There is a small minority who freak out about Mac temps, but it's largely unfounded, as most Macs just keep on running. The OP has made these arguments in several threads before starting another redundant thread on this beaten-to-death topic. The fact is that for most Mac users, temps are perfectly fine.

I disagree. Just because Macbooks aren't failing doesn't mean they shouldn't run cooler.

For me the biggest issue is that the damn noisy fans are always running when I put ANY load at all on my MBP 13". Those little guys cranking at 6000rpm+ while I'm trying to watch a video are REALLY annoying.

 

[GGJstudios]

How many threads are there on here regarding temperatures being insensibly high?

The vast majority of such threads are new Mac users who are simply unfamiliar with what normal temps are for Apple notebooks. In most such cases, the temps being reported are not high at all, and no throttling is involved.

Exactly what does the 'Pro' in Macbook Pro stand for, if they are building an 'average' laptop?

There are countless threads on this, as well. "Pro" is an undefined marketing term. It doesn't imply anything specific about the computer or the user.

You have yet to disprove anything I've shown, you've only output rhetoric without substance.

You have yet to prove that there is a heat issue with most users' Macs. Your thread title is evidence of the fallacy of your arguments. My MacBook Pro is NOT running too hot, and there's no way for you to know about it, if it was. You're simply trying to pass off your opinion and your own set of standards as something that affects all other Mac users. It's simply not true.

 

[iMacC2D]

Removed.

 

[Doward]

Doward - as a field service technician, I've added your findings to my notes. Good work.

Snip

Anyway, I hope this helps with your findings, OP. I'd be willing to discuss it further in private if you wish and provide any information I can that may be of assistance, but I find that discussing it in threads like these prove to offer little purpose, and I'm hopeless when it comes to arguments.

Thank you, this is the kind of discussion I was hoping to illicit.

Out of curiosity, after cleaning the heatsink, have you performed any additional tests as far as lapping and polishing the heatsink? I really wish I had a few more Macbook Pros sitting around, I'd love to have a more significant testing methodology.

I'd also love to know who supplies Apple with these heatsinks, and further what method of production they use. I suspect the pipes are drawn as normal, with the heatsinks simply investment cast and soldered to the pipes as needed. I further suspect the copper pads are simply cut and inserted (soldered) to the heatsink.

----------

You have yet to prove that there is a heat issue with most users' Macs. Your thread title is evidence of the fallacy of your arguments. My MacBook Pro is NOT running too hot, and there's no way for you to know about it, if it was. You're simply trying to pass off your opinion and your own set of standards as something that affects all other Mac users. It's simply not true.

Searching for 'hot' under the Apple Notebook forum yields 497 threads, on just this forum.

The problem does exist, you simply refuse to acknowledge that.

You wish people to believe that running 97+ % of *maximum* thermal load is somehow the 'norm', and it simply isn't. No engineer runs 3% or less safety load.

Take that MBP running 98C+ and bring it to Phoenix, AZ outside in the dead of summer and let me know how much video editing you can do.

*edit* Thanks, Stridemat - I was going to, you beat me to it

 

[iMacC2D]

Removed.

 

[Doward]

I haven't performed any further work to the heatsink, as it stands, the MacBook Air in question is still covered by the Apple Limited Warranty and the work that was carried out was performed in such a manner as to not affect this, so I'm hesitant to do much else with it at this stage. The MacBook Pro is another story, I could attempt it, but I don't have the tools to do so right now.

The heatsinks are pretty generic, lacking any kind of vendor stampings or labels, so it's difficult to tell. I know in 2007/2008 MacBook Pro the heatpipes were manufactured by both Fujikura and CCIC, as they had labels affixed by the manufacturers, but I haven't discovered much since then. Based on what I've seen though, I have no reason to doubt your assumptions of how they're cast and assembled as it's consistent with what I've seen. Copper pads on MacBooks and MacBook Pro systems appear to be pre-cut and pressed into the heatsink mounting assembly before being soldered to the heat pipe. Pretty basic standard design overall.

If you happen to be back in there, I'd love that data. I still have my 2007 C2D MBP, I'm going to order another stock heatsink for. I'll use that as a data point, but for me to have any confidence in this, I'd want many more data points to average what kind of difference lapping the sink makes vs just thermal paste.

 

[iMacC2D]

Removed.

 

[GGJstudios]

Searching for 'hot' under the Apple Notebook forum yields 497 threads, on just this forum.

As I've read and posted in a great number of these threads over the years, I'm quite familiar with them. As I said before, many are people whose Macs are running normal temps, but they aren't used to such temps. It doesn't mean the temps represent a problem.

The problem does exist, you simply refuse to acknowledge that.

No, the problem does not exist for most users. Don't assume that everyone uses a computer the same way you do.

You wish people to believe that running 97+ % of *maximum* thermal load is somehow the 'norm', and it simply isn't.

Depending on the workload being placed on the system, it certainly may be normal. Apple notebooks aren't designed for every workload. Your argument is like taking a car designed to run all day at 70mph and can occasionally max out at 120mph, then trying to drive that car at 120mph all the time. If you need to run at such speeds all the time, you should buy a car that can handle 120mph in stride and max out at much higher. It still comes back to the fact that you've chosen the wrong tool for the job you want to to. That's not Apple's fault. That's yours.

Take that MBP running 98C+ and bring it to Phoenix, AZ outside in the dead of summer and let me know how much video editing you can do.

Anyone with a bit of common sense about computers wouldn't attempt to do that. Apple lists operating environment requirements. If you can't read and understand specs, you're ill-equipped to choose the proper computer for your needs.

 

[DesertEagle]

The only time my MB got too hot under normal use, it was because the fan was worn out. No-one's fault but a natural consequence of 3 years of intensive usage.

 

[Doward]

The only time my MB got too hot under normal use, it was because the fan was worn out. No-one's fault but a natural consequence of 3 years of intensive usage.

Did the fan attempt to run more before dying? Or was the environment dusty?

 

[DesertEagle]

Did the fan attempt to run more before dying? Or was the environment dusty?

The bearings were worn out, so the fan slowed down and started to rattle. It never died or halted, though.

 

[Rocketpaul]

I personally only experience high temps when I watch online videos in full screen, sometimes getting as high as 90c. I think that is far too high for something as simple as flash video. other than that I am quite happy with the usual running temperature about 55c in my case.

 

[Doward]

I personally only experience high temps when I watch online videos in full screen, sometimes getting as high as 90c. I think that is far too high for something as simple as flash video. other than that I am quite happy with the usual running temperature about 55c in my case.

What does your GPU temp get to?

 

[johnnnw]

What does your GPU temp get to?

What are you using to measure temps?