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Yes, your MacBook Pro is running too hot, and yes, it is Apple's fault.
- Thread starter Doward
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I tend to agree with both parties:
Yes, Apple hardware could run less hot, If more care was put into some of the areas the OP mentions.
Yes, very few Apple products fail due to heat problems, as GGJstudios (among others) point out. (I guess you could even rebrand the heat-induced failures of 1st gen TC's as related primarily to bad components)
So, from my point of view, the question should be: would we value it (sufficiently), that our hardware would run cooler, even if the current temperature levels do not pose an immediate danger to our hardware?
RGDS,
from my recollection the heat issues were much worse a few years ago. And if people want the right info, they should read the fine print and not rely on a stock marketing shot.
My CPU on my 2012 MBP runs anywhere between 32-65c while the GPU Diode seems to sit in the same temperature range if not slightly higher. (Last test I did for max temps was Starcraft 2 on near max settings for around 2 hours).
If anything I believe that there are quality control issues, but too assume that the majority of the laptops are poorly put together seems a bit silly to me. Have you ever thought that people without temps problems dont make threads about it on forums?
If anything I believe that there are quality control issues, but too assume that the majority of the laptops are poorly put together seems a bit silly to me. Have you ever thought that people without temps problems dont make threads about it on forums?
You have a point, and obviously this is the case for almost every review on the internet. The dissatisfied will be the loudest group. 90% of the people happy with it will never think to write a good review.
The reason you see the temperature rise so quickly when intensive applications run is due to a low-mass heatsink with limited surface area.
The low mass (and efficient heat transfer from CPU) cause the HS temperature to rise. The limited size/surface area prevents the heat from radiating fast enough. Simple. It is not necessarily a design flaw. Just a tradeoff for having an extremely thin form factor (and this design has been in place for some time, you are not very likely to experience a hardware failure due to heat).
If you are constantly doing video conversions or other long-duration GPU/CPU processes, perhaps a notebook is not the right tool for the job.
The low mass (and efficient heat transfer from CPU) cause the HS temperature to rise. The limited size/surface area prevents the heat from radiating fast enough. Simple. It is not necessarily a design flaw. Just a tradeoff for having an extremely thin form factor (and this design has been in place for some time, you are not very likely to experience a hardware failure due to heat).
If you are constantly doing video conversions or other long-duration GPU/CPU processes, perhaps a notebook is not the right tool for the job.
So a marketing shot is supposed to tell everyone how NOT to use the MacBook???
Maybe you could tell that to EVERYONE who experienced the iPhone death grip problem
I don't like the high temps either. IMO I dont think its normal either. I think the macbook pro can just withstand heat pretty well. I wish we had more data on everything. I really do think even thought the CPU can withstand such heat, not everything else should/can.
So a marketing shot is supposed to tell everyone how NOT to use the MacBook???
Maybe you could tell that to EVERYONE who experienced the iPhone death grip problem
it's. just. marketing. Like I said, you research the product online and read the damn manual for stuff you pay thousands of dollars for, simple.
And you can use a lot of apple laptops on your lap comfortably for a lot of stuff students would do (web browsing and word processing). You just maybe shouldn't encode HD videos with the thing on your lap. Not a big issue.
I gotta agree with both sides as well. From a technical standpoint, OP is right, but it's just not that much of a problem and necessity to change it that Apple would. For 99% of users, it's okay the way it works right now. So why add a manufacturing step that might, by adding cost, however little, either lessen Apple's profits or turn away customers..?
I'd likely pay 20Euros more to get that as well, but the majority might not.
I'd likely pay 20Euros more to get that as well, but the majority might not.
Would you agree that facilitating the best possible transfer between die and heatsink will help keep the die cooler, and allow the heatpipe to work at maximum efficiency?
I think a number of people are just glossing over the thread, and simply chalking up "omg someone else complaining about heat ugh they are Apple duh" type mentality to it. Shame, honestly.
I think it's clear the Macbook Pro can easily run cooler, with very little needed to make this better even at the factory level.
For those systems already in service, I suspect the result speaks for itself.
Really it`s just the approach; Apple are doing nothing worse, nor better than any major vender of portable computers. Lapping heatsync`s has been around since PC`s hit mass production if not before, however to state that all MBP`s are inherently flawed with little to no knowledge of Apple`s internal process, is way out there.
Previously in upcountry Malaysia ambient temperature could reach as high as 30C indoors with the AC on, my 2.3 Retina idled and performed much as it does right now here in Southern China. From my usage and observations it`s unlikely any such lapping procedure will make significant inroads to system temperature 5C at best, maybe. If my systems idled at 26C, that would be one degree above ambient, doesn't seem likely given the load and start up app`s of the average Mac.
Comparing systems be them Notebook PC`s or far more sophisticated technologies, you need the specifications, the variables, variance and calculated offsets to even become close to making an approximation, let alone definitive, anything else in my own industry is sometimes termed as a WAG, or in common terms a "Wild Ass Guess"
Theoretically lapping the die`s will improve thermal transfer, technically it`s possible, what i don't like about is there is risk, the OP glosses over this or simply ignores it. Recently a member did the very same process on a Retina and one of the retaining screws "threaded" will Apple foot the repair, i doubt it, is the screw non critical, i doubt it, retention force of the heatsync is another factor and likely specified by the design criteria, and so it cascades.
I am all for interesting mod`s, equally this is not the panacea for everyones cooling issues, nor are all MBP`s flawed. Personally I work in the energy sector, I never have been nor will be a copy paste Wiki engineer. We work at a very high level of technology, looking where to make the most impact. MBP`s run hot for many varying reasons, this being but one of them. If you want to "have at it" all power to you, equally make sure that you are full versed with the "fallout" should something go wrong, and be prepared for a negligible improvement in thermals...
Previously in upcountry Malaysia ambient temperature could reach as high as 30C indoors with the AC on, my 2.3 Retina idled and performed much as it does right now here in Southern China. From my usage and observations it`s unlikely any such lapping procedure will make significant inroads to system temperature 5C at best, maybe. If my systems idled at 26C, that would be one degree above ambient, doesn't seem likely given the load and start up app`s of the average Mac.
Comparing systems be them Notebook PC`s or far more sophisticated technologies, you need the specifications, the variables, variance and calculated offsets to even become close to making an approximation, let alone definitive, anything else in my own industry is sometimes termed as a WAG, or in common terms a "Wild Ass Guess"
Theoretically lapping the die`s will improve thermal transfer, technically it`s possible, what i don't like about is there is risk, the OP glosses over this or simply ignores it. Recently a member did the very same process on a Retina and one of the retaining screws "threaded" will Apple foot the repair, i doubt it, is the screw non critical, i doubt it, retention force of the heatsync is another factor and likely specified by the design criteria, and so it cascades.
I am all for interesting mod`s, equally this is not the panacea for everyones cooling issues, nor are all MBP`s flawed. Personally I work in the energy sector, I never have been nor will be a copy paste Wiki engineer. We work at a very high level of technology, looking where to make the most impact. MBP`s run hot for many varying reasons, this being but one of them. If you want to "have at it" all power to you, equally make sure that you are full versed with the "fallout" should something go wrong, and be prepared for a negligible improvement in thermals...
Queen6 said:
I've already demonstrated a 17C difference on my Late 2011 17" MBP utilizing a basic polishing and replacement of the thermal compound. That is a significantly higher temperature difference than what you are implying.
You may have a point about the risk inherent in this type of work. There's at least a likely hood that for someone like me (ECE immersed in electronics daily) that this simply isn't considered difficult. Could I confidently design a skyscraper? No, I'll leave that to the Structural/Mechanical guys.
AnandTech clearly shows 20% drop in performance as things heat up on the 2011 model
I'm just amazed so many are in denial about there being a thermal problem.
So you support your argument by linking to a page about "vastly improved thermals" where it shows problems for the 2011 model and how they are much better on the retina model? I don't see anything in this to support how Apple is doing a bad job. Shows you are mainly trying to support you are right and Apple is wrong. Where you hired to post here by Dell or someone? I don't see anything useful in this long thread you seem determined to keep going.
Check the 2011's performance. Is standard Apple procedure to ignore anything bad and hope it will go away?
Yes, the Retina's doing better. Kudos to Apple for that. Doesn't change the fact there are lots of Macbook Pros from 2006-2011 over a 5 year span that have thermal issues.
I may just have to pick up a Retina and see what improvements a good lapping and premium thermal compound will make to it.
You have demonstrated nothing more than opinion, little factual. For someone who is "immersed in electronics", you show few skills; workspace is chaotic, there is absolutely no ESD precautions evident, no specified torque value for the heat sync assy; retention force has impact and factors.
Bottom line is you have reduced temperature on your 17" 2011 MBP and this is a great result for you, equally it is not not all encompassing for the entire MBP community, no need for grandstanding...
I own a Lenovo T520 laptop with a Core i5 processor. Running prime95, I could get this thing up to 73-75c, but never higher. It has one fan, and one tiny side vent. On the 15.4" Macbook Pro, there are two fans, a bigger heatsink, and the entire back line of the machine is a vent, and yet getting it to 86-93c never took much effort. I always wondered why.
I completely left out quality of the heatsink base. Doh.
Thanks for this thread. Very interesting!
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You will find that nearly no one takes anti-ESD measurements other than not working on a carpet, barefoot outside of laboratory environments.
I got to meet the dude who invented the auto release function on the audio compressor, his desk was messy as hell as well. If you disagree with the guy that's fine, but that's a weak basis on which to discredit an argument.
I completely left out quality of the heatsink base. Doh.
Thanks for this thread. Very interesting!
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You will find that nearly no one takes anti-ESD measurements other than not working on a carpet, barefoot outside of laboratory environments.
I got to meet the dude who invented the auto release function on the audio compressor, his desk was messy as hell as well. If you disagree with the guy that's fine, but that's a weak basis on which to discredit an argument.
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I disagree.
Every laptop in existence should be able to run something like prime95 for an hour without severe thermal issues.
Every laptop is not made to play games at max settings, or get you record results with folding@home, or encode 1080p h.264 video at 500 FPS. However, every laptop should be able to handle the processor that is installed inside of it. If it cannot, it's not properly designed.
If you want amazing performance, you may need a different laptop, but any laptop should at least be able to deal with 100% CPU load in stride.
That's obviously only your opinion, as notebooks are configured for a variety of intended uses. They are not all alike and not all configured to handle every possible task. That's why a MBP may be considered overkill for some users' needs, while it may be completely inadequate for others. It's up to each user to determine what their own usage requirements are, then shop intelligently for the computer that meets those needs. Buying the wrong computer for your needs and then blaming the manufacturer displays a lack of experience and unwillingness to accept responsibility for one's own inappropriate buying decisions.
I don't understand why people always complain about heat in a MBP. Heat is inherent to computing. It's like complaining that humans sweat.
Some humans sweat so much that it affects their ability to do things, and in a sense that's what people are stating here.
from my experience I've not seen any major heat problems with my rMBP