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To be fair, Tim Cook isn’t the one responsible for the products that make it out of Apple’s door. That would be Jony Ive and his design team. Tim Cook has taken on a more administrative and logistical role at Apple (in keeping with his strengths).

I guess one could argue that Tim is at fault for not reigning the design team in. As the CEO, I agree the buck does stop with him, but thought it would be useful to point out the state of affairs at Apple.

I agree that this is most likely being driven by Jony Ive but Tim Cook is absolutely the sole responsible party. As you said, the buck stops with him, so whatever makes it out the door is ultimately on him.
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heh, i don't think Cook is Ive's boss.

(not positive but i really don't think Cook has much power over Ive.. or, for example, Tim can't fire Jony)

As CEO of course he can fire Ive. But he's not going to because he doesn't understand there's a serious issue going on here in the first place.
 
Again, TDP is not the end all of measure. Thats where Apple failed and in some ways Intel did as well as they clearly didn't tell any of the systems makers the limits basing their design strictly on TDP alone!

Intel TDP is (something like) the power draw/heat output the CPU requires to run applications generating a sustained workload at the base clock. As soon as the thing is boosting for any period of time, TDP goes out the window.

Intel CPUs have been running way higher than TDP for at least a couple of years at this point. Just look at the X299 platform where motherboard vendors in the DESKTOP space got caught out by the same thing and shipped totally inadequate VRMs that couldn't support the power output required for the higher core count parts.
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Your private jet doesn’t have a power outlet? Then that’s all on you. Don’t blame Apple.

lol.

Fitting the 27" display on my economy tray table is a stretch.
 
Your not getting it. I am stating that in total, ALL contracts we purchase roughly 400 systems yearly. This does not include desktop machines. I am not saying anything about hitting Apple’s bottom line. Let me make this severely clear, they do not MAKE PROFESSIONAL GRADE EQUIPTMENT. Go back to your emails and daily driver equipment. We are getting ready to acquire two more companies that do research and media production and Apple will no longer be in the ecosystem. We do not care if it does not hit Apple bottom line. The point is that Apple does NOT MAKE PROFESSIONAL GRADE EQUIPTMENT. Get it? The point is that you and all of those who excuse this company are party to the false idea that they DO make quality PROFESSIONAL grade EQUIPTMENT. You are their bottom line. I LOVED Apple products. MacBook Pro is running off of the history of what the machine used to stand for. It is now a marketing ploy. The comment you made, “wow a whole 50 computers” is exactly the reason why Apple is getting away with it. Over the course of the next 4 year cycle that is nearly 1500 systems at our budget of 4k a system. Try and keep up. Enjoy the $3k netflix and email computer you bought. Enjoy sending it back. Enjoy it if it doesn’t let you down. I am in business, not feelings. They do not pay off. these are NOT pro level machines. They are boutique Laptops.
Wow. Most companies I have worked for I have to budget on things at least a year in advance. Changing 50 computers - to a different platform - would require major costs such as software licenses and some custom software... Someone would have to take the fall for it :eek:
 
Intel TDP is (something like) the power draw/heat output the CPU requires to run applications generating a sustained workload at the base clock. As soon as the thing is boosting for any period of time, TDP goes out the window.

Intel CPUs have been running way higher than TDP for at least a couple of years at this point. Just look at the X299 platform where motherboard vendors in the DESKTOP space got caught out by the same thing and shipped totally inadequate VRMs that couldn't support the power output required for the higher core count parts.
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lol.

Fitting the 27" display on my economy tray table is a stretch.

Way back in Conroe days where Intel made up what TDP meant. AMD kept to maximum full tilt as a measure for years but had to relent, since it looked bad in spec sheet wars.


No there isn't.

The Macbook Pro is a battery operated device you can use in a plane.

The iMac Pro and Mac Pro are not alternatives.

At least you could use the iMac at the coffee shop

42AB6B14-F335-4CFD-9080-99505F49B05B.png

(I kid, I kid! :D)
 
Do any of you guys really think the laptop getting slightly thicker would make a huge difference?

As others have cited, PC laptops with similar specs have throttling issues too.

My point is that, yes, I get that Apple is obsessed with thinness, but I think in some cases these are just the limitations of laptops in general. If you want real power, you're not going to get it from a portable machine.


Don't forget that the PC laptops rocking an i9 tend to also include things like a frickin' Geforce GTX 1080 (or maybe even two of them) in them as well.
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We just dumped all 50 Mac book pros ‘16 and ‘17. They do not perform. They are unserviceable. They have horrific support. This is the edit: Lenovo provides immediate professional support along with immediate response when there is a hardware failure. We had a few machines with heat issues in the field and they provided new machines, back up solutions and we wasted no time at no cost. We can hit the field, render in house and when or if a part drops like a hard drive, ram, etc we can fix it on the spot. Built in sim support, corporate drop ships over night with free return and replacement. (End edit) All of our systems are now Lenovo systems. We do rendering, as well as data collation in both scientific and media fields. The next round is removing the others. These are systems in use here in the states. Next we are dumping in our South Korea, India, and then federal contract sites. So there. The cost to benefit ina real world PROFESSIONAL arena is done. This is not YouTube video editing, this is not a few VMs setting, this is real world. This includes comfy office space, labs, field and other jobs. The pieces will probably be donated off for tax issues. It doesn’t matter that people who pay $2200 for daily drivers are happy. Bottom line mid that pro use is moving on. BSD and Linux do the job. Apple is losing the pro market. You aren’t even getting prosumer level quality. We use Nikon and Canon series equipment, Siemens, etc... This is pro level. Get rid of the facade, they don’t make pro level equipment.


I expect a lot of this.

This (and by "this" i mean the keyboard debacle as well) really is a massive screw up by Apple.

Right at the time where opportunity was ripe for Apple to get into the corporate market: iphone/ipad acceptance, general lack of acceptance in enterprise of Windows 10, Office 365 being cross platform, etc. - they drop the ball. MASSIVELY.

This is the time that Apple needed to be on their A game. If they were on their A game they could have had massive wins in the corporate market with the Mac. But they screwed it. They might not get another chance.
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Show me the numbers that they are losing anything.

Wow, a whole 50 computers?

That's one company.

There are plenty of companies in the world who may do the same for the same reasons.
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Way back in Conroe days where Intel made up what TDP meant. AMD kept to maximum full tilt as a measure for years but had to relent, since it looked bad in spec sheet wars.

I believe in the past couple of years (maybe more recently) intel have redefined what TDP currently means.

Now, TDP = Thermal design power = a guide to the thermal design constraints to run at base clock.

The current intel CPUs can/do (if able) draw a lot more power than their rated TDP and when boosting generate a lot more heat than their rated TDP.
 
And that’s why we have the impasse we have right now.

Personally, I think they both share the blame. Intel for not keeping its technology roadmap promises & Apple for designing a chassis that's clearly too thin to handle the thermal requirements of Intel's Coffee Lake i9 processor.

What we will likely disagree on is what Apple should do moving forward. You argue that they should make their laptops thicker. I believe it will simply convince Apple that they need to design their own laptop (and maybe even desktop) processors.

Apple is stubborn like that. To have the conviction to stick to your vision even when the odds seem stacked against you and it may seem like an otherwise unattainable goal. That’s what I like and admire about them, even if it means I get the short end of the stick at times.

Maybe I am a hopeless and deluded Apple sheep.

I don't understand this inane notion of having laptops thinner that a dime upright. There are so many draw backs to having such a thin device. The Keyboard is garbage, don't even say that it isn't compared to something like the Older Keyboards or even Dell's Maglev. Dropping all the ports only for USB C makes it Dongle hell because they couldn't fit Magsafe or an SD Card slot. I don't mind a slightly thicker device, like a Gigabyte Aero or Razer Blade, if I get the Bigger battery, slightly better cooling and actual useful ports.

Intel is at most partial to Blame. Because like I said, Intel doesn't have to bow down to appease Apple. If Apple wants to pay for a Custom Processor from Intel that fits their needs, then they need to write out a blank check then. But Intel is not at Fault for Companies like Dell and Apple choosing to shove the i9 Processors into their Respective XPS and MacBook Pro Chasis, knowing fully well that those cooling systems won't be enough. Atleast with an XPS you can open it and repaste it with relative ease, but thats not something the normal consumer would do anyway.
 
I don't understand this inane notion of having laptops thinner that a dime upright. There are so many draw backs to having such a thin device.

Agreed.

I looked up the thickness of the Macbook Pro since I had no idea what the number was.

To my surprise... today's Macbook Pro is actually thinner than the Macbook Air at its maximum height.

Seriously? Apple thought the Macbook Air was too fat? :eek:

Granted... the Macbook Air is tapered. But come on. Is this really necessary?
 
Agreed.

I looked up the thickness of the Macbook Pro since I had no idea what the number was.

To my surprise... today's Macbook Pro is actually thinner than the Macbook Air at its maximum height.

Seriously? Apple thought the Macbook Air was too fat? :eek:

Granted... the Macbook Air is tapered. But come on. Is this really necessary?

Back when Laptops were Bricks, I understood the dream of Desktop parts in a slim package. And Apple lead the way. And now we are here, years later finally with that Dream nearly a reality. We have laptops with Hexacore Processors and High End Nvidia cards. (The i7 8750H and GTX 1070 combo) in slim for factors like the Aero 15X. But there is a limit to what you can do, and Apple isn't God to try to use their brand against how Science works.

But I seem to be wrong because people still buy the laptops in droves despite knowing that it will have issues such as this. There were people, on this very forum, that foretold the imminent issues with the Butterfly switch. And they were waved off as being pessimistic. And now they have the last laugh.
 
My point being that intel’s chip designs is currently at odds with Apple’s own product design decisions. Apple is about making products more personal, which amongst other things, means making them thinner and lighter (because to Apple, a more portable device is a better user experience). Which in turn means poorer thermals.

And if intel cannot offer what Apple wants (processors that produce less heats, amongst other considerations), then rather than Apple walking back on their product designs to accommodate the limitations of intel’s own chips, they will likely just ride out this rough period until they are ready to transition to their own arm processors.

If anyone can pull it off, it’s Apple.

I bought the i9 MBP 2018. Throttling is there. What's also is there is conspicuous absence of fan noise. I think Apple will release a firmware update that will kick fans up quicker and more aggressively. It's quite possible that they forgot to modify fan behavior for the i9 line. In fact, this would explain a lot. New boot rom could ameliorate the problem.
 
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I don't understand this inane notion of having laptops thinner that a dime upright. There are so many draw backs to having such a thin device.

I don't understand people expecting to have a laptop function as your sole workstation. I have always had work that fits on a laptop, and others that are extremely intensive and requires a workstation. The vast majority of 'professionals' doing the heavy lifting are doing it from one (maybe two locations) but not moving from hotel to hotel. Since I make money from my computers, I tend to have at least 2 (usually up to 5) active computers - one being a laptop and the others being either workstations or servers. Except for 4K editing (which you can use a proxy), most work on average is not that much more horsepower intense now as it was 5 years ago. Laptops are not meant (even the current generation) to be run flat out - all the time... the heat (even in a reasonably cooled laptop) has got to have some sort of detrimental effect (IMHO).
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I bought the i9 MBP 2018. Throttling is there. What's also is there is conspicuous absence of fan noise. I think Apple will release a firmware update that will kick fans up quicker and more aggressively. It's quite possible that they forgot to modify fan behavior for the i9 line. In fact, this would explain a lot. New boot rom could ameliorate the problem.
It is possible the hardware release got ahead of the OS release, and internally they were testing it with Mojave. But then we are all guessing. This jumping to conclusions within the first week or two -- by people that have not purchased the device -- that it cannot be fixed -- reminds me of the AMD Ryzen security "backdoor" in support chips made by a 3rd party - the press went wild, AMD was doomed, they were going to be bankrupted by lawsuits... and a week later... patched.
 
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My impression is that Cook is a figurehead and is fairly hands off with respect to most of the technical stuff.

heh, i don't think Cook is Ive's boss.

(not positive but i really don't think Cook has much power over Ive.. or, for example, Tim can't fire Jony)
[doublepost=1532066960][/doublepost]What's scary is that:

1) Apple knew about the throttling and decided to release it anyway or
2) Apple didn't know about the performance hit from the throttling which makes the i9 pointless

So:

1) Apple is charging more money for less performance which is dishonest or
2) Apple is so sloppy that they didn't test their own machines for the performance hit.

Either way it looks REALLY bad for them as a company.

They need to fire Tim and hire someone more interested in Apple products versus personal philanthropy.
 
I don't understand this inane notion of having laptops thinner that a dime upright. There are so many draw backs to having such a thin device. The Keyboard is garbage, don't even say that it isn't compared to something like the Older Keyboards or even Dell's Maglev. Dropping all the ports only for USB C makes it Dongle hell because they couldn't fit Magsafe or an SD Card slot. I don't mind a slightly thicker device, like a Gigabyte Aero or Razer Blade, if I get the Bigger battery, slightly better cooling and actual useful ports.

Here’s how I interpret Apple’s design choices.

Using Apple’s grand theory of design, they use the Mac to push the other devices forward. At the same time, the Mac will take on features of the other mobile devices and be pulled forward as well.

Think about it - what other device is thin and light, can be used long hours without being plugged into an outlet (thereby negating the need for MagSafe), has you typing on a glass surface, and sports a multi-touch display which adapts to the specific task at hand?

Answer: the iPad. Just as the iPad is slowly becoming more Mac-like in terms of software features, so too does the Mac appear to be getting more iPad-like in terms of hardware features.

Apple is making a very deliberate decision that features like the Touch Bar, and not a focus on power and ports, are the best way to push the Mac forward in today's mobile world.

Hence my prediction of the MacBook keyboard eventually becoming a sheet of glass that can also adapt itself on the fly to whatever the user is doing at that time. You want a template as to what a future MacBook might look like? Look no further than the iPad.
 
Hence my prediction of the MacBook keyboard eventually becoming a sheet of glass that can also adapt itself on the fly to whatever the user is doing at that time. You want a template as to what a future MacBook might look like? Look no further than the iPad.

I agree, but the issue is we already have a device for that niche: The iPad (pro).

Some people need things like physical keyboards, more processing power, more memory, etc.

Apple have abandoned these users it seems.
 
I don't understand people expecting to have a laptop function as your sole workstation. I have always had work that fits on a laptop, and others that are extremely intensive and requires a workstation. The vast majority of 'professionals' doing the heavy lifting are doing it from one (maybe two locations) but not moving from hotel to hotel. Since I make money from my computers, I tend to have at least 2 (usually up to 5) active computers - one being a laptop and the others being either workstations or servers. Except for 4K editing (which you can use a proxy), most work on average is not that much more horsepower intense now as it was 5 years ago. Laptops are not meant (even the current generation) to be run flat out - all the time... the heat (even in a reasonably cooled laptop) has got to have some sort of detrimental effect (IMHO).
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It is possible the hardware release got ahead of the OS release, and internally they were testing it with Mojave. But then we are all guessing. This jumping to conclusions within the first week or two -- by people that have not purchased the device -- that it cannot be fixed -- reminds me of the AMD Ryzen security "backdoor" in support chips made by a 3rd party - the press went wild, AMD was doomed, they were going to be bankrupted by lawsuits... and a week later... patched.

Because we are at a point that we can have Desktop Grade Performance on the Go. Which was the point of the Macbook Pro up to 2015. As strong as a desktop for the most part with ports to plug in everything and work from One Computer. Hell, the Thunderbolt Display showed that Apple wanted it to happen. Now, I will agree with you that Laptops at this time are not meant to run full tilt all the time. But its not like people who are using Laptops for work are using them to do things that would even make a Desktop Cringe. Heat will kill all electronics. But some will last longer than others depending on the amount of heat, again you're right on that.

But we've come to a point where Apple and Dell are doing ridiculous things to try and mislead the average consumer. These 8th Gen Processors are already hot as they run (The Aero 15x, MSI GS65 and Razer Blade for example) and the laptops that they are being thrown in are having issues cooling them. Can it be fixed, for the i7's a repaste and Intel XTU fixes it. But Apple doesn't have Intel XTU and because of the cooling design meant for Quad Core Processors (lol even the 8th gen U processors are having a hard time being cooled in the 13 inch) we are at this point where it can't even handle Base clock speeds.

tl;dr We've arrived close to a point where Slim Laptops like the XPS's, Blades, Aero's, MacBooks and what not have the potential to achieve the one system dream many people want, but inane and deliberate **** ups from the likes of Dell and Apple are making the product look like its not possible.
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Hence my prediction of the MacBook keyboard eventually becoming a sheet of glass that can also adapt itself on the fly to whatever the user is doing at that time. You want a template as to what a future MacBook might look like? Look no further than the iPad.

Yikes. That is a grim future to look at if what you are saying holds any merit. Typing on a smartphone, any smartphone, is absolute crap (Atleast for me). But I deal because of what the phone is capable of and obviously I can't have a keyboard and a phone this thin.

But an entire keyboard made from a sheet of glass? Thats a no from me dog. I would, at most, take something akin to what Asus is doing with their Zenbook with that Display Trackpad thing. But an entire, touch screen only, keyboard with no physical feedback at all?

I mean, Apple sheep will still buy it because it has the Apple logo. So i suppose those people are the market Apple wants anyway, but from people who want and need to do ****...

Thats a no from me dog.
 
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People here comparing the MBP to the XPS do one mistake: The XPS is actually capable of holding reasonable clock speeds (above base clock), way above the ones the new MBP does (as can be seen in the most recent notebookcheck test). And this, even though the XPS is already considered a machine with serious thermal issues. That shows even more how bad of a design the new MBP is
 
Because we are at a point that we can have Desktop Grade Performance on the Go. Which was the point of the Macbook Pro up to 2015. As strong as a desktop for the most part with ports to plug in everything and work from One Computer. Hell, the Thunderbolt Display showed that Apple wanted it to happen. Now, I will agree with you that Laptops at this time are not meant to run full tilt all the time. But its not like people who are using Laptops for work are using them to do things that would even make a Desktop Cringe. Heat will kill all electronics. But some will last longer than others depending on the amount of heat, again you're right on that.
First, you will NEVER get desktop grade performance in a laptop. Well, you could, but that has been happening for the last 20 years... and all that happens is the laptop is the desktop from 5 to 10 years ago, and the new desktop... cannot be fit into a laptop. The constant drum-beat on here about putting the best inside any released product is proof of that... if there is something better people will demand it. Video production with 8K sources is starting to become more common, but then the laptop now struggles with 4K, so even if the laptop is great for 4K... the 8K... there will be issues.

Your dream, my nightmare.

To fit everything I want or need into one machine... it would make for one heavy bulky device -- even today. As a former road warrior who carried the "one machine" (or "two machines") to do everything... for 3 years... and when I came off the road and had problems with one shoulder being 1" lower than the other. In addition, I remember making a doctors appointment to find out why I had a slight decrease in sensation in my foot - which the doctor never identified (it was diagnosed by an MRI about 4 years ago as 5 damaged C-vertebrae which I am guessing started those laptops.

In addition, the constant use of a laptop as a laptop is a horrible ergonomic mistake (which will only be compounded by phone neck issues).
 
First, you will NEVER get desktop grade performance in a laptop. Well, you could, but that has been happening for the last 20 years... and all that happens is the laptop is the desktop from 5 to 10 years ago, and the new desktop... cannot be fit into a laptop. The constant drum-beat on here about putting the best inside any released product is proof of that... if there is something better people will demand it. Video production with 8K sources is starting to become more common, but then the laptop now struggles with 4K, so even if the laptop is great for 4K... the 8K... there will be issues.

Your dream, my nightmare.

To fit everything I want or need into one machine... it would make for one heavy bulky device -- even today. As a former road warrior who carried the "one machine" (or "two machines") to do everything... for 3 years... and when I came off the road and had problems with one shoulder being 1" lower than the other. In addition, I remember making a doctors appointment to find out why I had a slight decrease in sensation in my foot - which the doctor never identified (it was diagnosed by an MRI about 4 years ago as 5 damaged C-vertebrae which I am guessing started those laptops.

In addition, the constant use of a laptop as a laptop is a horrible ergonomic mistake (which will only be compounded by phone neck issues).

Fair enough. Unlike Apple, I am not forcing you to look at my dream and say "This is my dream and this is how it will be **** you" I understand that there are workloads that Laptops simply cannot do. I get it, thats why people want eGPU (Easiest example).

I understand as that Laptops are limited. For what I do, a Laptop is enough. But for others that won't be the case. For business, a Thinkpad is enough but for people who need to do Premiere edits sometimes not even those thick laptops like the GT72 from MSI are enough.
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People here comparing the MBP to the XPS do one mistake: The XPS is actually capable of holding reasonable clock speeds (above base clock), way above the ones the new MBP does (as can be seen in the most recent notebookcheck test). And this, even though the XPS is already considered a machine with serious thermal issues. That shows even more how bad of a design the new MBP is

I was mainly using the XPS 15 as an example because its the only device, aside Apple's MacBook Pro, to not have a Major Chassis redesign in nearly 3 Generations. Dell made slight adjustments for its cooling, which is why it can atleast hold its base clock speed and turbo higher.

That still doesn't excuse Dell from what they did though. I'm a huge Fan of their XPS Laptops (I used to own the 9560.) but shoving an i9 into that Chassis was just asking for Trouble. The thing is if you are savy enough and own a T5, you can atleast fix it somewhat by repasting (Someone was mad enough to use Liquid Metal) and using XTU to undervolt.

But yeah it just makes the new MacBook Pro look even worse by comparison now. The 7th Gen HQ Quad Cores were already hot enough as it was in that Chassis, same for the Dual Core 7th U Processors in the 13 inch. Not throttle tier overheating, but very, very hot.
 
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That still doesn't excuse Dell from what they did though. I'm a huge Fan of their XPS Laptops (I used to own the 9560.) but shoving an i9 into that Chassis was just asking for Trouble. The thing is if you are savy enough and own a T5, you can atleast fix it somewhat by repasting (Someone was mad enough to use Liquid Metal) and using XTU to undervolt.

Yeah, I agree. The thermal design of the XPS isn't responsible enough and they got kind of lazy as well. Guess that's a common symptom for the board leaders...
 
They should have went with 2 quad core cpus instead, nerfed would still draw less than the i9
 
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T
My point being that intel’s chip designs is currently at odds with Apple’s own product design decisions. Apple is about making products more personal, which amongst other things, means making them thinner and lighter (because to Apple, a more portable device is a better user experience). Which in turn means poorer thermals.

And if intel cannot offer what Apple wants (processors that produce less heats, amongst other considerations), then rather than Apple walking back on their product designs to accommodate the limitations of intel’s own chips, they will likely just ride out this rough period until they are ready to transition to their own arm processors.

If anyone can pull it off, it’s Apple.

The i9 is perfectly fine. Apple is using it wrong.
 
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