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Originally posted by ionas
well the question is what vendors are left for professional company usage regarding pcs?

dell? no
gateway? no
ibm? yes
sony? no
sun? no
hp compaq? yes
apple? yes, of course, but only if you do not have to stick to windows cause of your customers, but even then, vpc helps out in many cases.

there arent so many possibilites...

toshiba notebooks are so great, i wish they would run mac os x and feature a g5 1.5ghz 90nm that scales low to 500mhz via speed stepping ;-)

tecra s1 and m10 m20 m30 are all great machines :-]

i have a compaq notebook, presario 1272, for four+ years now with windows 98...the new hpq compaq models are definitely better than the old ones...that's for sure ;)

it's a good thing i am a pc tech, otherwise i would have sold this pc off a long time ago:p
 
Flabbergasted

I'd personally be really flabbergasted if Apple we're to release new PPC's this summer.

In the form of Dual all across or
Single/Dual 2.2 then Dual 2.6 and Dual 3.0Ghz.

Keeping in mind that they go for total system performance than just the CPU and major subsystem speed; I'd love to see the Dual 3.0 to have new Hypertransport interconnects and all chips to have more of them 4 instead of just 2. If IBM can bring the memory controller into the 970's die the transistor count will still be down below AMD's Opteron's/Athlon64's and offer higher performance and be supreme in memory transfer latency.:D

But if not then I'd like to see more efforts of Apple making inroads to corporate software companies making more offerings to OS X -making it that more appealing to bite into!!!!
 
Originally posted by ionas
well the question is what vendors are left for professional company usage regarding pcs?

dell? no
gateway? no
ibm? yes
sony? no
sun? no
hp compaq? yes
apple? yes, of course, but only if you do not have to stick to windows cause of your customers, but even then, vpc helps out in many cases.

there arent so many possibilites...

toshiba notebooks are so great, i wish they would run mac os x and feature a g5 1.5ghz 90nm that scales low to 500mhz via speed stepping ;-)

tecra s1 and m10 m20 m30 are all great machines :-]

I guess your experience differs from mine. Years ago, when I took a sales job for a year, I sold Compaqs (and other brands). We had more Compaqs with problems -- out of the box and otherwise -- than anything else, and it wasn't even close.

I've also worked extensively with Dells, with 50 or so laptops and desktops employed at one place. My experience with them was favorable. Tech support can stink (getting routed overseas to someone whose English needs a lot of work is among the most frustrating experiences I've ever had), but overall I've been happy. The build quality may not be a rock-solid as IBM's, but I was pretty satisfied.
 
Originally posted by john123
I guess your experience differs from mine. Years ago, when I took a sales job for a year, I sold Compaqs (and other brands). We had more Compaqs with problems -- out of the box and otherwise -- than anything else, and it wasn't even close.

I've also worked extensively with Dells, with 50 or so laptops and desktops employed at one place. My experience with them was favorable. Tech support can stink (getting routed overseas to someone whose English needs a lot of work is among the most frustrating experiences I've ever had), but overall I've been happy. The build quality may not be a rock-solid as IBM's, but I was pretty satisfied.

ibm laptops are definitely built very solid, but they are ugly compared to virtually every laptop make on the market and somewhat overpriced for what you get

years ago, when i was in techie classes, i worked at office depot and we had ibm thinkpads, compaq presarios, and toshiba satellite laptops...toshiba was the best but ibm was a close second...definitely the compaqs were the weakest of the three brands and the laptops seemed rather flimsy among most of the models in the presario range

after i left there, ibm closed their retail op so office depot replaced the ibm laptops with e-machines laptops and then the store had a new weakest laptop and compaq moved up a notch in the pecking order with toshiba at the top

as for desktops, we had compaq presarios, hewlett packard pavillions, and e-machines and of those the e-machines were the most problematic of the three, compaq took the middle road, and hp were the best machines...but this was all back in 1999 when i worked there and things have possibly changed greatly and i don't mean to knock e-machines that are made today

when i look at e-machines desktops in stores today, they look a lot better than the e-machines of old but i would have to talk to several people with new e-machines desktops to get an accurate rating on them...the e-machines laptops today look a lot better than the older e-machines laptop models which were dreadful and had a very stiff keyboard and a dull passive matrix lcd display....though some of the compaqs and toshibas had passive matrix displays, they were much brighter and the active matrix lcd screens looked out of this world

...but then i got an ibook and it put all the pc laptops' screens to shame
 
Re: Flabbergasted

Originally posted by Prom1
I'd personally be really flabbergasted if Apple we're to release new PPC's this summer.

In the form of Dual all across or
Single/Dual 2.2 then Dual 2.6 and Dual 3.0Ghz.

Keeping in mind that they go for total system performance than just the CPU and major subsystem speed; I'd love to see the Dual 3.0 to have new Hypertransport interconnects and all chips to have more of them 4 instead of just 2. If IBM can bring the memory controller into the 970's die the transistor count will still be down below AMD's Opteron's/Athlon64's and offer higher performance and be supreme in memory transfer latency.:D

But if not then I'd like to see more efforts of Apple making inroads to corporate software companies making more offerings to OS X -making it that more appealing to bite into!!!!

There wont be a new hypertransport, for now it runs at 800MHz however Opteron motherboards (and maybe Apples) were designed to run also at 1GHz when AMD needs it. Getting the memory controller onto the CPU die was not an easy or quick process, it took AMD a long long time to even get it working let alone clock it at 400MHz and I doubt IBM could do it in a click and no doubt it would bring the cost of the G5 quite abit higher.

Memory latency and bandwidth is on the Opteron side and with a NUMA OS your packing alot of bandwidth even using DDR 400 it will hit 12.8GB/s for the DUAL processor. DDR 2 is on the way and rumors suggest that the Opteron allready has a DDR2 controller onboard it just needs to be enabled via an additional metal layer.
 
Yes they can!

army_guy..... you stated
Getting the memory controller onto the CPU die was not an easy or quick process, it took AMD a long long time to even get it working let alone clock it at 400MHz and I doubt IBM could do it in a click and no doubt it would bring the cost of the G5 quite abit higher.

Fortunately, for both IBM, Apple, and AMD, AMD could NOT have gotten that memory controller along with SOI process WITHOUT IBM's help; they tried for over a year until they finally had to work with IBM to get it finally solved. So I do believe that IBM has not only the expertise but the knowhow to actually get it done; at least a few prototype batches by April this year.

What I should've mentioned that my wants were in regards to the HyperTransport interconnect was for IBM to actually involve more of them than is presently current. I do believe that they run at 400Mhz and that there is a pair of them on the G5 motherboard. I also think that their is 3 or 4 of them on any Opteron boards chipset. I could be wrong about this though. But I'm sure I read somewhere on ArsTechnica regarding IBM's involvement for solving AMD's research and development in their SOI + imbedded memory controller process.
 
Iam not saying it isnt possible iam saying that alot of changes would have to be made. The cheap would eat more power, the MB would need a complete overhaul and even then the CPU's might not clock as high as expected especially if Apple wants the 3GHz by the summer. IMO they need to work at getting at the 3GHz and putting the G5 into a laptop before doing anything fancy with the CPU's
 
I dont know exactly how many links the Opteron motherboards, the DUAL boards (2xx's) I think have a total of 4 links. Its on AMD's site iam looking through it,
 
Re: Re: Flabbergasted

Army_guy, HuH?
Originally posted by army_guy
Memory latency and bandwidth is on the Opteron side and with a NUMA OS your packing alot of bandwidth even using DDR 400...

NUMA is Non-Uniform Memory Access, it's a hardware design that allows cpus to access memory that my be in different regions or that may have different speed, latency...

http://lse.sourceforge.net/numa/faq/

What is a NUMA OS? You'd want your OS to be NUMA aware to run on your NUMA hardware...
So.. who makes NUMA Opteron boxes right now?
 
The Latest 64-bit LINUX distros are just coming in all supporting NUMA so will be seeing Numa enabled Opteron boxes prety soon.


The latest FreeBSD.
Mandrake 64.
Redhat Enterprise 2/3 (WS/ES/AS versions)
Solaris 10 (64-bit for Opteron)

all support NUMA ON Opteron.
 
Originally posted by army_guy
The Latest 64-bit LINUX distros are just coming in all supporting NUMA so will be seeing Numa enabled Opteron boxes prety soon.

You do know, we won't see numa "boxes" either, right. The whole deal with NUMA is that you don't need it 'a box'. NUMA is important in something like an SGI Altix, where you have multiple boxes linked together, and you want the cpus from one box to access the memory from another box. NUMA support is generally only relegated (by need and cost) to the high reaches of supercomputing.

PCs cost $
Macs cost $$
NUMA boxes cost $$$$$

It's interesting stuff and all, but not really something Apple is in competition with.
 
As far as iam aware NUMA is after SMP, if you dont need it in a box then why is there support for it at the software and hardware level (its in BIOS of my machine)? Enabling NUMA suddenly just doubles the bandwidth of the Opteron BOX. In SMP mode they pretty much hit thier limit at 5.5-6GB/s
 
Any more news on the new round of G5s?

Any more news on the new round of G5s? I almost clicked "submit order" to Mac Warehouse, when I read here that new models were on the way. I suppose that will always be the case, but with that much of an upgrade I am going to hold out for a little while. Plus, I am hoping the Radeon 9800 will be standard in the new models (at least the high-end model). Anyone heard anything more? Thanks!
 
Well, yeah they are on the way, but nobody really knows when except Jobs and his minions. And they're not telling.

My bet is it will be the middle 15th to the end of Febuary. Right now the big thing going down is the Pepsi promo and they are not going to steal anything from that.

BY the 15th the novelty of doing the Itunes I won a song deal will have gone away and the time will be right - I hate to say this but I actually believe macosrumors regarding this - they are going to wait a bit to give IBM time to build a large number of 970fx chips to be used in the System X switchover to X serves.

I think whats in store will be an across the board speed bump and the intro of the G5 into the 20" Imac.

End of Febuary - Beginning of March time frame.
 
Originally posted by ionas
well the question is what vendors are left for professional company usage regarding pcs?

dell? no
gateway? no
ibm? yes
sony? no
sun? no
hp compaq? yes
apple? yes, of course, but only if you do not have to stick to windows cause of your customers, but even then, vpc helps out in many cases.

there arent so many possibilites...


I am not sure why you think Dell isn't viable for companies... as much as I dislike their business practices in general, they make it very easy to purchase and track large quantities of PCs in a work environment.

In my admittedly limited experience (a few hundred PC purchases every few years) I have been most turned off by IBM. They took forever (more than 90 days) to deliver my first order of 20 or so Intellistations. They delivered the wrong type of machine on my next order, and after treating me with disrespect when forced to correct their own mistake, they delivered yet another incorrect model. To top it off, they were unable to answer simple questions about their systems' BIOS configuration until I got to a manager at senior level tech support, who confirmed a bug that disallowed booting from a USB floppy disk but couldn't give me a time frame for a fix. So much for booting from a floppy for imaging. Thank god for PXE servers. It then took an act of congress to get them to mail me a CD copy of the OS, because instead of including it with the system on CD, they hide it on a partition on the drive that the "restore utility" reads it from in an emergency. When I explained to them that I wipe the drives clean upon arrival so I can image them, they sounded confused. How is this a viable company for businesses to use?

Gateway tries very hard, and their profile series is OK for a PC all-in-one. They are merging with eMachines though which scares me.

Dell has consistently had my orders delivered correctly within a week of being placed, and they undercut everybody else on price. To top it off, they have specialized US based tech support for large customers. They also call back when they say they will.

Apple tech support is always the worst that I have to deal with. Most recently, they tried to tell me that getting Netboot to work on an Xserve was somehow outside the realm of my premium tech support contract, when their own documentation was so flawed that making it function was impossible. Hello? They make the hardware and the software. Who can they legitimately blame it on? The Xserve itself took over 6 months to be corrected, and they made me sign a non disclosure agreement so I can't even talk about why it took so long. The Xserve is still sh*t with SCSI, which makes me wonder how they expect to be taken seriously with their business class machines.

When I dealt with Compaq, I always got top notch tech support from their Proliant team. Those people routinely mailed me CDs with customized configurations of their server management apps. at no charge. I haven't bought from them since they were eaten by HP, but HP did a great job with delivering large shipments of identical PCs when I used to deploy hundreds of Vectras at a time. No hardware changes without warning halfway through a product run.

Hmm...

So what was the question again?
 
Originally posted by Quixcube
The Xserve is still sh*t with SCSI, which makes me wonder how they expect to be taken seriously with their business class machines.

Er I knew that allready not sure if everyone else knew, they seem to think RAID ATA drives are better than SCSI for a server enviroment?
 
Originally posted by army_guy
Er I knew that allready not sure if everyone else knew, they seem to think RAID ATA drives are better than SCSI for a server enviroment?

You could always hear my little thing for what scsi stands for. Yes I know scsi stands for small computer system interface. But my little thing is that scsi stands for "server class storage instrument". Which is exactly what it is.
 
Am I just going crazy or was there a recent price drop at the Apple web site concerning the low end G5 and entire PB line?

there's a good chance I'm going crazy, but at any rate, someone please tell me what's going on!
 
Originally posted by howtoplaydead
Am I just going crazy or was there a recent price drop at the Apple web site concerning the low end G5 and entire PB line?

there's a good chance I'm going crazy, but at any rate, someone please tell me what's going on!

The G5, low end one, was 1999, but is now 1799, and the other two g5 models dropped as well. The pb's have been the same price for a while now.
 
More 970FX Details

I just found some more details on the 970FX.

Check out page 9 of the linked PDF - 1.1Ghz bus and confirms support of over 2Ghz. Power consumption is less than half the 130nm chip at 2Ghz.

PowerPC 970FX Details
 
Re: More 970FX Details

Originally posted by Skiniftz
I just found some more details on the 970FX.

Check out page 9 of the linked PDF - 1.1Ghz bus and confirms support of over 2Ghz. Power consumption is less than half the 130nm chip at 2Ghz.

24,5 W seems fantastic compared to the annouced pentium 4 prescott which consumes up to 100 W (at 3,4 Ghz)

4 x G5 = 1 P4 in power consumption ...

bah the prescott is just a piece of junk compared even to the older Pentium 4
-needs more power
-slower against the old modell( even with twice the cache)
-40% more power in idle ... 25% more at peak performance (which is less)
-but higher mhz......

I think Intel is getting in to serious problems...
 
That extra idle power is because of the 90nm process, somin which all manufacturers will be having. Your right its a piece of crap, what worries me is the 32 stage pipeline I mean 20 was very bad but 32 how the hell is branch prediction gona cope? the hell use 50 stages and hot 10GHz who cares about clock speed :confused:

On a more interesting SUN will be releasing Ultra Sparc 4 DUAL CORE giving QUAD cpu performance in an EATX style chassis YUM YUM. Performance will be from 1.8-2.2 x the DUAL CPU Ultra Sparc 3. Multi core will be the future IMO.
 
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