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2008 Formula One Thread
- Thread starter R.Youden
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Well the coverage is incredibly biased in the UK. I recall the "noo.... yess!!" moment from Valencia as a particular indicator of this.
Speed TV in the US is fairly decent. they obviously like hamilton, but it's not too over the top.
my beef here is particularly about cutting the chicanes, it annoys me to no end.
my beef here is particularly about cutting the chicanes, it annoys me to no end.
I agree to a part, but I remember when it was Michael Schumacher it was not stop praise from Murry Walker, but I know he is good I can see that, please stop repeating yourself.
My point is that we are talking about someone who came First and then has has been demoted in what I personally perceive to be unfairly. The fact that he is British has little to do with it.
Just for a little perspective on similar incidents in the past this particular jumping of the chicane received no penalty at all.
MS/Ferrari cheating
This is the real problem with the FIA: no consistency. That was 2006, only 2 years ago...
MS/Ferrari cheating
This is the real problem with the FIA: no consistency. That was 2006, only 2 years ago...
Fi is a joke. No wonder Vegas laughs at the thought of betting on it. There's a triple standard: the rules for Ferrari, the rules against McLaren, and the rules everyone else follows.
I attended the USGP from '03-'07, but I wouldn't wipe my ass with free tickets to its return. I'll stick with ALMS and Speed World Challenge, where the racing is first class. And unlike F1, they actually like having fans attend the events.
Besides, Valencia was a huge bore, so if that's the future, Bernie and Max can have it to themselves.
I attended the USGP from '03-'07, but I wouldn't wipe my ass with free tickets to its return. I'll stick with ALMS and Speed World Challenge, where the racing is first class. And unlike F1, they actually like having fans attend the events.
Besides, Valencia was a huge bore, so if that's the future, Bernie and Max can have it to themselves.
The most striking thing for me was the fact that they left Raikkonen's car on the track and didn't call a safety car. This made it clear that they really want exciting action over anything else.
It's for that reason then that I think that they hand out penalties to make things closer. It's unfortunate that McLaren seem have been on the end of this more often than others, but if they keep doing things which warrant penalties then why are people surprised when they get them?
It was extremely clear that Hamilton deserved his penalty. He should have braked or lifted off when he realised that he could not make the turn, but instead he cut the corner. It's not surprising, given that McLaren have in the past shown themselves to be cheats and thieves. This would have been the correct sporting thing to do, especially since it was his own error in not braking in time which led to him being so far wide in that corner.
Had he actually lifted off or braked at the correct time he would not have been so close to Raikkonen on the straight. It's this crucial element which means that he gained an advantage by cutting the track. Just think, if he had taken the final corner properly and corrected his own error without cheating he would have been a good few car lengths behind Raikkonen and would not have been able to pass into turn 1.
I have no idea whether the nature or severity of the punishment is justified. I do know that it warranted some form of punishment, regardless of whether his opponent crashed or not.
One thing which I do believe was totally wrong though was ITV's analysis at the end of the highlights show. It was disappointing to see the broadcaster siding so firmly with one party despite there being an ongoing appeal.
It's for that reason then that I think that they hand out penalties to make things closer. It's unfortunate that McLaren seem have been on the end of this more often than others, but if they keep doing things which warrant penalties then why are people surprised when they get them?
It was extremely clear that Hamilton deserved his penalty. He should have braked or lifted off when he realised that he could not make the turn, but instead he cut the corner. It's not surprising, given that McLaren have in the past shown themselves to be cheats and thieves. This would have been the correct sporting thing to do, especially since it was his own error in not braking in time which led to him being so far wide in that corner.
Had he actually lifted off or braked at the correct time he would not have been so close to Raikkonen on the straight. It's this crucial element which means that he gained an advantage by cutting the track. Just think, if he had taken the final corner properly and corrected his own error without cheating he would have been a good few car lengths behind Raikkonen and would not have been able to pass into turn 1.
I have no idea whether the nature or severity of the punishment is justified. I do know that it warranted some form of punishment, regardless of whether his opponent crashed or not.
One thing which I do believe was totally wrong though was ITV's analysis at the end of the highlights show. It was disappointing to see the broadcaster siding so firmly with one party despite there being an ongoing appeal.
You're right, no consistency.
Oh wait, that's not a Ferrari breaking a rule, so it's okay...
25 seconds is the standard penalty when a drive-through would have been handed down during the race. You obviously can't serve a drive-through after the last lap, so they do this.
And it's a legit penalty. I'm doing my own replay from ITV, and I certainly don't see a lift. I see Kimi having a better launch out of the corner due to not having to drive over paint and having a wider radius to work with.
Moreover, Hamilton was in no place to try and contest the second part of the chicane. Kimi's rear axle was about even with Hammy's when he cut over, and Kimi was pulling ahead (and did NOT steer into Hammy, as someone mentioned).
Unless you're a Ferrari driver, in which case you have the right whether you're ahead or behind.
Unless you're a Ferrari driver, in which case you have the right whether you're ahead or behind.
are you now saying it's raikkonen's fault?
or that lewis can cheat because alonso cheated three years ago?
now you're really getting ridiculous.
but consistency is certainly an issue and the other two examples of cutting a chicane is exactly why chicanes should be designed so that if you are forced to cut them you cannot possibly get an advantage.
First of all I was kidding (mostly), but secondly my comment was not about Kimi's in that move, but Ferrari in general.
Ferrari has no place to get on such a high horse. If Schumi had never done any of those types of moves Lewis made on Kimi, his legacy might look quite different. He was king of bending the rules, except when he/Ferrari got so blatant about it he/they got punished for cheating. If this had been Schumi putting the exact same move on someone, all the tifosi would have gone all gushy with their man-crushes talking about how brilliant and heroic Shumi is. Steve Machett probably wouldn't have been able to contain himself.
Even though I am not a Ferrari or McLaren fan, I do like Kimi and would rather he win than Lewis. I also believe if the tables had been turned there would have been no investigation. I don't think Lewis cheated. I didn't want him to win, but am sorry his win was taken away. The FIA spoiled what would have been a great race.
And why wasn't Kimi investigated for blocking after Lewis yielded. Didn't he make two moves to keep Lewis behind him after the chicane and yield? Or is my memory of it wrong?
He also effectively overtook Lewis under double waved yellows when they encountered the Williams.
I wish I could find it in the Sporting Regs, but overtaking is allowed if the driver ahead goes off track, such as when Lewis did in avoiding the Williams.
That was why I used the phrase "effectively". I've seen this allegation against Kimi on quite a few sites, but I really don't think it hold true...
I think it's going a bit far too.
I think Kimi and Lewis did well not to collect the Williams when they exited that corner.
You're right, no consistency.
Oh wait, that's not a Ferrari breaking a rule, so it's okay...
25 seconds is the standard penalty when a drive-through would have been handed down during the race. You obviously can't serve a drive-through after the last lap, so they do this.
And it's a legit penalty. I'm doing my own replay from ITV, and I certainly don't see a lift. I see Kimi having a better launch out of the corner due to not having to drive over paint and having a wider radius to work with.
Moreover, Hamilton was in no place to try and contest the second part of the chicane. Kimi's rear axle was about even with Hammy's when he cut over, and Kimi was pulling ahead (and did NOT steer into Hammy, as someone mentioned).
Your own little reply seems to have a few problems if you didn't see him lift. He came out of the corner ahead (due to missing the apex) and then he was behind the Ferrari. so he had to have lifted. That and the data from the McLaren shows he was 6 km/mph slower as they went over the did (they will also be able to show % of throttle).
Now if only we could get the opinion of a 3 times world champion who has driven for both teams... Oh hang on...
Triple world champion Niki Lauda has described the stewards' decision as "the worst judgement in F1 history".
"It is the most perverted judgment I have ever seen," said the Austrian, who won the title for both Ferrari and McLaren.
"It's absolutely unacceptable when three functionaries (the stewards) influence the championship like this."
Oh and the reason for the 25 second penalty for rule breaking in the last 5 laps is thanks to Ferrari. Don't you remember when Schumacher took a stop-go penalty on the last lap of the 1998 British GP. He entered the pits on the last lap and did his stop-go penalty but also crossed the finish line to win the race in the pits... So yes you could serve a drive through/stop go on the last lap.
He had to have lifted? You sure it wasn't a lack of grip from crossing over wet paint?
That can easily be from Kimi having a better exit from the corner.
Until they ACTUALLY show throttle opening, you can't prove he lifted.
Also, I don't give a flying **** about what Niki Lauda thinks. I also don't give a flying **** about anything that Nigel Mansell says.
F1 is fixed in favour of Ferrari
I am an Australian who follows F1 and Sundays race was the last straw.
Hamilton should never have been disqualified. He overtook by mistake, gave up his place as he should have done then re started racing.
Even the Aussie media (who are notoriously anti British and don't want to see British sports people doing well at anything) thinks the decision was incredulous and smaks of conspiricy.
Todays Sydney Morning Herald's headline is
Hamilton punished as F1 plunged into 'race-rigging'
http://www.smh.com.au/news/motorspo...nto-racerigging/2008/09/08/1220725916101.html
It is reported that Max" Nothing wrong with dressing up in nazi regalier and having bondage parties" Mosley openly "loathes" Ron Dennis of Mclaren and has done all he can do to bring down this wonderful team.
I think this is the last straw for F1 as it has lost all credibility as it seems to be fixed in favour of Ferrari (who Max Mosley regards as the Jewel of F1) winning
I am an Australian who follows F1 and Sundays race was the last straw.
Hamilton should never have been disqualified. He overtook by mistake, gave up his place as he should have done then re started racing.
Even the Aussie media (who are notoriously anti British and don't want to see British sports people doing well at anything) thinks the decision was incredulous and smaks of conspiricy.
Todays Sydney Morning Herald's headline is
Hamilton punished as F1 plunged into 'race-rigging'
http://www.smh.com.au/news/motorspo...nto-racerigging/2008/09/08/1220725916101.html
It is reported that Max" Nothing wrong with dressing up in nazi regalier and having bondage parties" Mosley openly "loathes" Ron Dennis of Mclaren and has done all he can do to bring down this wonderful team.
I think this is the last straw for F1 as it has lost all credibility as it seems to be fixed in favour of Ferrari (who Max Mosley regards as the Jewel of F1) winning
I agree that this entire penalty issue was not warranted. However, to defend Ferrari somewhat (not that I'm an Ferrari F1 fan), Stefano Domenicali did make some comments about the issue. I'd like to think he is less of the stereotypical Ferrari F1 that the media perceives. He said Ferrari didn't institgate the investigation and that the stewards were the ones who called them in to discuss the "incident". Perhaps that's just more evidence that Mosely and/or Bernie were behind the investigation?
OK, I have not posted on the Hamilton situation yet, but I thought I will give it a go.
Firstly I think the penalty was harsh, but was what Hamilton did within the rules? For me it is very border line. I have a couple of screen grabs from the on-board. I suppose the question is, would Hamilton have been in a position to overtake Kimi if he had not cut the corner?
The first photo is just before the braking zone at the bus stop and the second picture is after Hamilton let Kimi back through:
Through the corner Kimi had the racing line and Hamilton was forced wide. Now the question is, could Hamilton have avoided hitting Kimi and stay on track? If you look at the next photo Hamilton is on full lock and you can just make out the Ferrari in front with the racing line:
Hamilton ended up going over the advertising logo and I am sure he could have gone far straighter and missed Kimi, but he would not have been in a position to overtake Kimi in La Source.
Personally I would say that it is a racing incident with 60-40 blame on Hamilton but that is racing. The problem is that Hamilton won a very exciting race and then had it stripped off him, so for the average man on the street it made no sense.
I suppose the reason McLaren keep getting into trouble (unfairly or not) is because they put themselves in that position. Hamilton could have easily got Kimi through Radion but choose to be too greedy too soon.
McLaren won't appeal, they have too much to loose.
After this I hope Hamilton wins in Monza but refuses to celebrate, stick that up the FIA!
Firstly I think the penalty was harsh, but was what Hamilton did within the rules? For me it is very border line. I have a couple of screen grabs from the on-board. I suppose the question is, would Hamilton have been in a position to overtake Kimi if he had not cut the corner?
The first photo is just before the braking zone at the bus stop and the second picture is after Hamilton let Kimi back through:
Through the corner Kimi had the racing line and Hamilton was forced wide. Now the question is, could Hamilton have avoided hitting Kimi and stay on track? If you look at the next photo Hamilton is on full lock and you can just make out the Ferrari in front with the racing line:
Hamilton ended up going over the advertising logo and I am sure he could have gone far straighter and missed Kimi, but he would not have been in a position to overtake Kimi in La Source.
Personally I would say that it is a racing incident with 60-40 blame on Hamilton but that is racing. The problem is that Hamilton won a very exciting race and then had it stripped off him, so for the average man on the street it made no sense.
I suppose the reason McLaren keep getting into trouble (unfairly or not) is because they put themselves in that position. Hamilton could have easily got Kimi through Radion but choose to be too greedy too soon.
McLaren won't appeal, they have too much to loose.
After this I hope Hamilton wins in Monza but refuses to celebrate, stick that up the FIA!
Don't panic said:
Indeed, Trulli raised the very point that I was going to... had I not been on my holidays of course.
Trulli said:
Trulli said:
Quite how people can honestly even suggest that Hamilton didn't unfairly benefit from skipping the chicane is frankly... beyond me. Truly.
Counterfit said:
Yup. Reminds me of France 2002, when Schumi whilst leading received a drive through for crossing the white line on the exit of his previous pit stop.
Kimi took the lead, and then a few laps from the end went off at Adelaide after encountering oil, Schumi who was right behind him kept it on the track and took the position back.
Unbelievably, afterwards, Ron Dennis, with a straight face insisted that Schumi should be penalised, because he overtook under waved yellows... completely ignoring the fact that Kimi wasn't actually on the circuit at the time.
Really... what did he expect all the other drivers to do? Park up and wait for their idiot that couldn't keep it on the black stuff to rejoin?
Indeed, Trulli raised the very point that I was going to... had I not been on my holidays of course.
Quite how people can honestly even suggest that Hamilton didn't unfairly benefit from skipping the chicane is frankly... beyond me. Truly.
Trulli, being a chicane himself, is the ultimate authority on chicanes, so the case is closed.
Usually the FIA takes a very dim view of appeals to their rulings (i.e. - Benetton in 1994), but if McLaren received an "all clear" from Charlie on the move, that might just be enough to win them the appeal.
Personally, I think it's a rubbish call on the steward's part, so I hope it is overturned.
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