2008 Formula One Thread

[scotthayes]

He had to have lifted? You sure it wasn't a lack of grip from crossing over wet paint?

Did you even watch the race? He came out the corner ahead, as they cross the finish line he was half a car length behind and then drop behind the Ferrari. So how the hell was that lack of grip?

That can easily be from Kimi having a better exit from the corner.

I really do question which race you were watching. Or was you watching through rose (ferrari red) tinted glasses???

Until they ACTUALLY show throttle opening, you can't prove he lifted.

Guess we will have to wait and see

Also, I don't give a flying **** about what Niki Lauda thinks. I also don't give a flying **** about anything that Nigel Mansell says.

 

[Superman07]

http://sundayafternoonclub.blogs.topgear.com/2008/09/09/belgian-gp-onboard/

 

[Counterfit]

Unbelievably, afterwards, Ron Dennis, with a straight face insisted that Schumi should be penalised, because he overtook under waved yellows... completely ignoring the fact that Kimi wasn't actually on the circuit at the time.

Surely you should have learned by then?

Really... what did he expect all the other drivers to do? Park up and wait for their idiot that couldn't keep it on the black stuff to rejoin?

Hey now, he's our idiot now!
Besides, the oil was on the line and unflagged.

Did you even watch the race? He came out the corner ahead, as they cross the finish line he was half a car length behind and then drop behind the Ferrari. So how the hell was that lack of grip?

As is pretty obvious in the onboard video linked below, he took it pretty easy on the exit, presumably not to spin.

I really do question which race you were watching. Or was you watching through rose (ferrari red) tinted glasses???

I were indeed watching the race, but not live. I do have it on my computer

http://sundayafternoonclub.blogs.topgear.com/2008/09/09/belgian-gp-onboard/

Watch Kimi's front left tire in Rivage as it vibrates laterally from being on the verge of a complete loss of grip.


And this hasn't been mentioned in this thread, AFAIK, but I relly don't like the new Bus Stop. I much prefer the 2004-05 layout.

 

[Don't panic]

http://sundayafternoonclub.blogs.topgear.com/2008/09/09/belgian-gp-onboard/

awesome images, great driving by both. too bad they don't have the exact moment when raikkonen goes on the spin by himself after he regained the lead.

as far as the chicane pass, it's obvious from listening to the sound that lewis didn't slow down to let kimi pass, and did gained an advantage. that said, they should have told him immediately that he had to concede the position again.
they also should make it a rule that when a position is 'returned', the one behind has to stay behind for at least one turn for the move to be valid

 

[remmy]

Thanks for the link, wish they had more of those shots during the race. They go flat out for so long its brilliant. You can see kimi struggling so much more when driving, but the reactions are so sharp. I guess he crashed because he went on to slippery green area off the track.

 

[Counterfit]

they also should make it a rule that when a position is 'returned', the one behind has to stay behind for at least one turn for the move to be valid

That's an interesting idea there. But what about long straights after chicanes? At some point down there, you've given up whatever advantage you gained, and should be allowed to pass again.

I guess he crashed because he went on to slippery green area off the track.

I think it was a bump, actually.

 

[Superman07]

I'm pass this as fact and not trying look for an argument.

McLaren have said that after Lewis passed Kimi (on the straight) they turned to race control twice to confirm that the pass was legitimate and within the rules. On both occassions they were told yes. Otherwise, they claim, they would have told Lewis to reconcede/concede the position to Kimi.

 

[Superman07]

Nice video from F1! (For the Belgium race)

http://www.formula1.com/services/play_video.html

 

[Counterfit]

Nice video from F1! (For the Belgium race)

http://www.formula1.com/services/play_video.html

That's a damn good video!

• I like the 8-bit music at the beginning
• Heikki's move on Piquet was sweet
• Heikki's move on Webbo, not so sweet
• Kimi would have certainly won if he had come in for inters

 

[legacyb4]

Ditto.

If you look at the slow replay, it's pretty clear Lewis gave up very little of the chicane-cutting advantage to Kimi because as soon as Kimi gets out in front, Lewis is already trying to draft him to pass. I would have thought that giving up the advantage would mean at least returning the time advantage you stole by cutting the corner at a minimum.

I think it's probably more to do with the silver car completely cutting the last corner.

Hamilton is getting even more repulsive as this season goes on. I guess he regrets the "I hardly ever get overtaken" comment. If he's not careful then people might actually start looking at him with the same critical eye as the other 19 drivers.

 

[benlangdon]

why can't you watch the view from any car the entire race.

i love when they stop talking and you can watch them do a lap.

man i wish i still had my go-kart

 

[djellison]

[*]Kimi would have certainly won if he had come in for inters
[/list]

Zero basis for that. He was crap at Silverstone on Inters. There's no reason to suspect he wouldn't have been crap at Spa with them for a single lap as well.

 

[Don't panic]

That's an interesting idea there. But what about long straights after chicanes? At some point down there, you've given up whatever advantage you gained, and should be allowed to pass again.

still you'd have to wait for the next turn. conservative application of the "rule" to avoid complaints and loopholes. if you are behind without attacking at the next turn, for sure you gave up any advantage you might have gained.

i would also like them to spell out clearly what is the penalty for people cutting chicanes or racing outside of the track whithout gaining an actual position, but just a "timing" advantage.


to make a final comment about the spa affair, i think that hamilton undoubtely gained an advantage from the situation so, limited to that event, i believe the stewards took a reasonable decision to punish, although the extent might be too harsh (i think a penalty on the next grid would have been fairer)
two caveats though:
1), it is essential that the same metric is used always;
2), if it is true that McLaren was given on official OK about the manouver, the penalty -even if appropriate in a vacuum- would be unfair in this context. In such case the proper conduct would have been to declare the move illegal, but to exact no punishment because it was approved officially during the race.

 

[CWallace]

What boggles my mind is Raikkonen took himself out so where was the advantage, actually? If Raikkonen had finished the race in second right behind him, I could arguably (and I emphasize the arguably part since I believe Hamilton yielded the position per the regulations) see the stewards consider the penalty.

But their actions effectively say that Hamilton gained an advantage on Massa and Heidfeld. I don't remember what the gap back to Massa from Lewis was at the time of the incident, but Massa finished nine seconds back after deciding to save the car, so it was likely five or six seconds at the time and therefore didn't really gain any advantage - especially after Massa decided to slow down. And Heidfeld was likely in the pits, so what advantage Hamilton gained over that by cutting a chicane escapes me...

I just find it a capricious ruling by the stewards.

 

[remmy]

I think this penalty given after the race is meant to represent one given during the race. I don't have a problem with the stewards giving a penalty even though the driver affected crashed because the event still happened so a penalty still needs to be applied.

Also the penalty gives advantage to the following drivers in the same way as maybe a driver error would of, so those classified behind are still entitled to gain the benefits. - Did that make sense

 

[Counterfit]

What boggles my mind is Raikkonen took himself out so where was the advantage, actually? If Raikkonen had finished the race in second right behind him, I could arguably (and I emphasize the arguably part since I believe Hamilton yielded the position per the regulations) see the stewards consider the penalty.

But their actions effectively say that Hamilton gained an advantage on Massa and Heidfeld. I don't remember what the gap back to Massa from Lewis was at the time of the incident, but Massa finished nine seconds back after deciding to save the car, so it was likely five or six seconds at the time and therefore didn't really gain any advantage - especially after Massa decided to slow down. And Heidfeld was likely in the pits, so what advantage Hamilton gained over that by cutting a chicane escapes me...

I just find it a capricious ruling by the stewards.

Well, had it not been on the penultimate lap, but on, say, lap 30, it would have been a drive-through (or perhaps 10 sec. stop-go, but I think drive-through is the norm for cutting a chicane) rather than 25 seconds added to his time. If 25 added seconds was the only penalty for this, regardless of the point it the race it was committed, then the following drivers could just stay within 25 seconds of the to-be penalized driver, and not even try and push ahead.
THAT would be boring as all hell.

 

[robbieduncan]

Oh great. More speculation and rumour-mongering....

 

[R.Youden]

Kimi has signed a new contract until the end of 2010. What does this mean for Fred? Honda, BMW or stay at Renault?

 

[iGav]

Oh great. More speculation and rumour-mongering....

McLaren will probably get away with it on appeal, just like they got away lightly last year. *shrugs* But if that's how they want to win...

Kimi has signed a new contract until the end of 2010.

Whoopie do. *Sighs*

What does this mean for Fred? Honda, BMW or stay at Renault?

BMW have to be favourite, but would he want to go up against Kubica?

Honda... can't see it, even with Brawn at the helm... it's going to take seasons to get fully competitive with Ferrari and McLaren, I think he's more likely to stay at Renault than choose Honda.

 

[iGav]

they turned to race control twice to confirm that the pass was legitimate and within the rules.

Just to clarify for you, but it's not Race Controls decision, they only proffered their opinion.

 

[CWallace]

Well, had it not been on the penultimate lap, but on, say, lap 30, it would have been a drive-through...

Yes, but if Kimi had promptly put the car into the wall a few hundred meters down the road, I don't think the stewards would have called Hamilton in for a drive-through.

That is what I find capricious about it - Kimi was out of the race. It didn't matter if it was on Lap One or with one lap to go. He was going to finish out of the points, regardless. The only reason they made the call was to cost Hamilton four points and advance Massa two so as to make the championship tighter going into Monza.

Anybody know the advance ticket sales for Monza? Maybe they needed to fill some still empty grandstands a week out...

Oh great. More speculation and rumour-mongering....

What I find odd is that it is widely expected that when Mosley retires, Jean Todt of Ferrari will replace him as FIA President. So with all the F1 teams recently calling for Mosley's head over the sexual incident, and Todt having the most to gain from those calls, you would think Mosley would not want Ferrari to benefit.

But then, this is Formula One - the 300km/h soap opera. Anyway, off to watch Monza practice.

 

[Don't panic]

Yes, but if Kimi had promptly put the car into the wall a few hundred meters down the road, I don't think the stewards would have called Hamilton in for a drive-through.

That is what I find capricious about it - Kimi was out of the race. It didn't matter if it was on Lap One or with one lap to go. He was going to finish out of the points, regardless. The only reason they made the call was to cost Hamilton four points and advance Massa two so as to make the championship tighter going into Monza.

Anybody know the advance ticket sales for Monza? Maybe they needed to fill some still empty grandstands a week out...

i don't recall Monza ever NOT being sold out, so i doubt they have problems selling tickets there, especially this year with a close championship (even without this ruling).

i see your point about kimi eventually not beign "penalized" but the pass since he crashed out anyways, but as mentioned many times before is not only about position. If a driver cuts the chicane just to do a faster lap, but doesn't gain a position in the process, does it get a by? should he get a penalty?

 

[remmy]

He would get a penalty if he did it repeatedly when there was no need, maybe more leniency would be allowed for dangerous driving conditions.

 

[CWallace]

i see your point about kimi eventually not beign "penalized" but the pass since he crashed out anyways, but as mentioned many times before is not only about position.

Understood, but even if Lewis had not backed-off to let Kimi by, he would not have gained sufficient time from cutting the chicane to have allowed Massa, Alonso or Heidfeld to catch up to him. So no position aft of his would have changed.

And watching SPEED TV replay of the event from a clean overhead shot of the entire period, it was clear that Lewis backed off not just beside Kimi, but behind him and waited until both he and Kimi had passed the Start/Finish line before he accelerated. Kimi had significant tire-spin as he accelerated past Start/Finish since he was fishtailing something fierce (or he was blocking something fierce) which forced Lewis to cut to the inside and take the corner (which Kimi tried to over-defend and ended up clipping Lewis in the back). So Kimi wasn't exactly clean as the driven snow in his driving past Start/Finish, either. That aggressiveness might very well have explained both his spin and subsequent crash.

If a driver cuts the chicane just to do a faster lap, but doesn't gain a position in the process, does it get a by? should he get a penalty?

I admit to not being well-versed enough in the F1 rulebook to answer that. I will note that Vettel cut the chicane in the morning's practice something fierce, but they didn't disqualify his time for that lap. Then again, it was just practice.

Also, F1 does not award a bonus point for Fast Lap (which I believe they should), so even if Hamilton had not lifted before the Start/Finish line and had secured Fastest Lap of the Race, all he'd have gotten was bragging rights for scoring the Pole, the Win and the Fast Lap.

 

[xUKHCx]

Appeal date set for the 22nd of September