2009 Formula One Thread

[SpookTheHamster]

Lola weren't exactly fantastic on their last two tries. They're definitely a much better company now though.

On the whole I do agree slightly with Ferrari. These teams have no idea what it takes to design and run an F1 car. The GP2/F3 teams get by with <50 staff because they're not designing anything and all they have to do is turn the car on and drive it.

The costs are going to add up quickly when things get designed and sent for manufacture. None of these new teams will have their own manufacturing facilities and the amount of manufacturing that goes on in F1 is crazy. I dread to think how much it would cost to outsource all the manufacturing that goes on between each race.

 

[MOFS]

Lola weren't exactly fantastic on their last two tries. They're definitely a much better company now though.

On the whole I do agree slightly with Ferrari. These teams have no idea what it takes to design and run an F1 car. The GP2/F3 teams get by with <50 staff because they're not designing anything and all they have to do is turn the car on and drive it.

The costs are going to add up quickly when things get designed and sent for manufacture. None of these new teams will have their own manufacturing facilities and the amount of manufacturing that goes on in F1 is crazy. I dread to think how much it would cost to outsource all the manufacturing that goes on between each race.

In defence of these teams, those that do get through will have to prove to the FIA/ Bernie their race-worthiness through their application and manifesto. Lola have a good chance with their production of cars for GP2, although it is interesting to see so many GP2 teams hoping to enter. I remember Arden hoping to enter F1 just before Christian Horner joined RBR. Certainly USGPE have experience too, with Peter Windsor having worked with Williams and Ferrari and editor of F1 Racing. Assuming the budget cap doesn't increase exponentially, I'd expect those two to be the main front runners.

 

[SpookTheHamster]

In defence of these teams, those that do get through will have to prove to the FIA/ Bernie their race-worthiness through their application and manifesto. Lola have a good chance with their production of cars for GP2, although it is interesting to see so many GP2 teams hoping to enter. I remember Arden hoping to enter F1 just before Christian Horner joined RBR. Certainly USGPE have experience too, with Peter Windsor having worked with Williams and Ferrari and editor of F1 Racing. Assuming the budget cap doesn't increase exponentially, I'd expect those two to be the main front runners.

Lola and USF1 are probably the only two that have a realistic chance. They could even be the front-runners... of the backmarkers.

 

[pachyderm]

Lola weren't exactly fantastic on their last two tries. They're definitely a much better company now though.

On the whole I do agree slightly with Ferrari. These teams have no idea what it takes to design and run an F1 car. The GP2/F3 teams get by with <50 staff because they're not designing anything and all they have to do is turn the car on and drive it.

The costs are going to add up quickly when things get designed and sent for manufacture. None of these new teams will have their own manufacturing facilities and the amount of manufacturing that goes on in F1 is crazy. I dread to think how much it would cost to outsource all the manufacturing that goes on between each race.

I, for one, would like the cost to go down. But if I were a team principle I'd probably not. There is a saying in America, "If you can't hunt with the big dogs, don't get off the porch.". In toher words, most of these teams have invested a lot and have advanced the bar and don't want to, or feel a need to go backwards. They've put in the time so they should have say. I do hate it though. It would be nice to see a team be able to compete and maybe even win by the seat of their pants.

If I'm off the mark I defer so "spook..."

 

[MOFS]

I, for one, would like the cost to go down. But if I were a team principle I'd probably not. There is a saying in America, "If you can't hunt with the big dogs, don't get off the porch.". In toher words, most of these teams have invested a lot and have advanced the bar and don't want to, or feel a need to go backwards. They've put in the time so they should have say. I do hate it though. It would be nice to see a team be able to compete and maybe even win by the seat of their pants.

If I'm off the mark I defer so "spook..."

The problem is you can't have teams spending £200 million to win absolutely zilch because other teams are spending £300 million. An interesting quote from the owner of iSport is here from Autosport.

Q. How important are manufacturers to the sport?

PJ: If you look back over the past two or three decades, they have always been engine suppliers. They've had two or three dabbles at running a team and they've got out again, because running a Formula 1 team, or a racing team of any sort, doesn't fit with a big corporate structure. That moves too slowly; this has to move very quickly.

You need quick decision-making and adaptability, and big corporations don't fit with that philosophy. In the past it hasn't worked, and it's got to the point now where it's not working. Big, big corporations have got to look after their core business, which is manufacturing cars. They've got 400 or 500 people employed in F1, and spending 200 or 300 million, but they've got hundreds of thousands of people employed in their core business. And they've got to look after that.

It's a good point. When I started watching, you had McLaren-Honda, Ferrari and Williams-Renault. Honda and Renault dropped out (leading to Ferrari to win stuff again!), Mercedes joined in, and then Renault, Toyota and BMW started their works teams. Plus ca change...

 

[CWallace]

The problem is you can't have teams spending £200 million to win absolutely zilch because other teams are spending £300 million.

And yet even just raw spend is no guarantee of results, otherwise Toyota, who is said to spend the most (some reports say $400 million or more per season) have done bumpkiss until this year with the new diffuser.

What I found amazing was that Ferrari has had the right to actually veto proposed changes to the F1 Technical Regulations since at least 2005. If they had actually exercised that veto when the new "cap rules" were proposed, instead of waiting until now and having the courts rule they waited too long to do so, we wouldn't even be having this argument.

 

[MOFS]

And yet even just raw spend is no guarantee of results, otherwise Toyota, who is said to spend the most (some reports say $400 million or more per season) have done bumpkiss until this year with the new diffuser.

What I found amazing was that Ferrari has had the right to actually veto proposed changes to the F1 Technical Regulations since at least 2005. If they had actually exercised that veto when the new "cap rules" were proposed, instead of waiting until now and having the courts rule they waited too long to do so, we wouldn't even be having this argument.

... which raises a lot of questions regarding Ferrari leaving. Ferrari ain't gonna get this amount of leverage in any other sport, and they've positioned themselves as being unwilling to cut costs. Honda left because of costs, Toyota look like they could well leave F1 anyway as a factory team, supplying Williams with engines only. BMW want a budget cap, as do Renault seemingly, while Mercedes did all they could to get Brawn GP into this season. Ferrari have painted themselves into a (Marlboro red) corner by essentially condemning the exercise entirely, without realistically helping themselves. IMHO the fans of Fernando in Spain and the British and German fans are just as passionate as the tifosi. F1 survived when Ferrari weren't doing well in the past - I'm sure Ferrari have realised it can survive in the future without them.

 

[pachyderm]

The problem is you can't have teams spending £200 million to win absolutely zilch because other teams are spending £300 million. An interesting quote from the owner of iSport is here from Autosport.



It's a good point. When I started watching, you had McLaren-Honda, Ferrari and Williams-Renault. Honda and Renault dropped out , Mercedes joined in, and then Renault, Toyota and BMW started their works teams. Plus ca change...

I agree.

 

[MOFS]

Uh oh ...

The Formula 1 teams have all threatened to pull out of next season's world championship unless the £40m budget cap proposed by the FIA is scrapped. F1 team bosses had a meeting on Friday to discuss how to reach a compromise with the sport's governing body.

"We will not enter with these rules and with this governance," said Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo.


The team bosses have now entered a second meeting, which FIA president Max Mosley will attend.The teams' umbrella group Fota met in Monaco - where the sixth race of the 2009 season is taking place - in an attempt to agree a common position from which to negotiate with Mosley.

Di Montezemolo, who is the chairman of Fota, said as he emerged from the meeting:

"I can say that it was, as always, a very constructive and useful meeting between the teams. Fota is now an organisation with a common view."

Mosely also said that two manufacturers [IMHO Toyota and Renault] were looking to pull out if costs weren't reduced. This is bad news.

 

[xUKHCx]

Massa smeared his nose and got away with it.

Hamilton stacked it into the tire wall. I think if the wall wasn't there he would've just scrapped around the corner. Going to be a tough weekend trying to get anything out of it now.

 

[pachyderm]

Toyota and BMW screwed as well. Good luck Nico!

 

[Qwertylizer]

Go Kimi Go! Kimi was on fire! Ferrari is starting to work a little.

 

[acurafan]

this season is going amazingly great for brawn-gp - another win tomorrow please.

 

[Qwertylizer]

this season is going amazingly great for brawn-gp - another win tomorrow please.

And soon (at the latest next season) we are going through another dull "schumacher"-season. One driver wins all the races.

 

[MOFS]

Woah!

1. Jenson Button, Brawn GP, 647.5 kg
2. Kimi Raikkonen, Ferrari, 644
3. Rubens Barrichello, Brawn GP, 648
4. Sebastian Vettel, Red Bull, 631.5
5. Felipe Massa, Ferrari, 643.5
6. Nico Rosberg, Williams, 642
7. Heikki Kovalainen, McLaren, 644
8. Mark Webber, Red Bull, 646.5
9. Fernando Alonso, Renault, 654
10. Kazuki Nakajima, Williams, 668
11. Sebastien Buemi, Toro Rosso, 670
12. Nelson Piquet, Renault, 673.1
13. Giancarlo Fisichella, Force India, 693
14. Sebastien Bourdais, Toro Rosso, 699.5
15. Adrian Sutil, Force India, 670
16. Lewis Hamilton, McLaren, 645.5
17. Nick Heidfeld, BMW Sauber, 680
18. Robert Kubica, BMW Sauber, 696
19. Jarno Trulli, Toyota, 688.3
20. Timo Glock, Toyota, 700.8

Link

Button's pitting on lap 20 according to Brawn, so they'll pit after everyone, and yet they're still quicker. Absolutely amazing - and Button once again is putting in phenomenal drives to grab pole.

EDIT: And BBC's fuel-adjusted grid.

BBC SPORT'S FUEL-ADJUSTED GRID (with projected race first pit stops*)
1 Button (lap 20)
2 Raikkonen +0.113 (lap 18)
3 Barrichello +0.162 (lap 20)
4 Massa +0.635 (lap 18)
5 Rosberg +0.691 (lap 17)
6 Kovalainen +0.702 (lap 18)
7 Vettel +0.769 (lap 11)
8 Webber +0.776 (lap 19)
9 Alonso +0.945 (lap 23)
10 Nakajima +1.929 (lap 31)

 

[bartelby]

Doh!

Forgot I was watching a recorded programme

 

[CWallace]

Good race.

Even though it is still early, Button looks unstoppable now. He knows it's his best chance to take the WC and he's giving it 110%. Mark Webber looked good.

The GP2 Sprint Race was something - nice camera shot of Romain Grojean's (sic) crash. To quote Uncle Jimbo from South Park - "It's coming right for us!"

 

[MacsRgr8]

And soon (at the latest next season) we are going through another dull "schumacher"-season. One driver wins all the races.

TBO, I'm happy it does happen again.... Let me explain:
The over-exaggerated "Schumacher is the best ever" etc. can now be toned down a bit.
I respect Schumacher's achievements, but seeing a genuine nice guy (aka Button) achieve the same level of dominance with the same huge help of the car you're privileged to drive during such a "win-all" season, gives me a good feeling....
You don't have to be an arrogant SOB to win...

It must be so frustrating for Barrichello.... ever 2nd driver

 

[Fizzoid]

Thing is, Schumacher did it for many years, where as Button has been the no where up until this season. Whether he can maintain this form for another 5 seasons is another matter

 

[ethical]

Thing is, Schumacher did it for many years, where as Button has been the no where up until this season. Whether he can maintain this form for another 5 seasons is another matter

I agree, we wont at all be able to compare Button to MS until we see his performance in the next couple of seasons.

I'd like to see someone like Hamilton take Button's car around the track.... No way could a driver suddenly spring up from the mediocre lot to the top stars without the help of an awesome car.... Hamilton on the other hand seems to be an extremely talented driver all round, I mean did you see him on the Top Gear Test Track?

 

[Don't panic]

It must be so frustrating for Barrichello.... ever 2nd driver

it probably is, but today he interpreted the #2 role to perfection. perfect start for second and then slowed down kimi enough to give button an unbreachable cushion.

the championship is pretty much over. with ross brawn at the helm there will be no screw-ups at brawn-gp until jenson is mathematically WDC. Then, rubens will get his wins if the cars are still so dominant.

at this point, i think ferrari will probably win most of races in the second half of the season, but it will be too late to mount a real challenge. the fact that they don't have a clear #1 driver (unlike brawn) won't help them either.

 

[pachyderm]

I agree, we wont at all be able to compare Button to MS until we see his performance in the next couple of seasons.

I'd like to see someone like Hamilton take Button's car around the track.... No way could a driver suddenly spring up from the mediocre lot to the top stars without the help of an awesome car.... Hamilton on the other hand seems to be an extremely talented driver all round, I mean did you see him on the Top Gear Test Track?

No offense, but we're never going to compare Jensen Button to MS. Ever. As much as I despise MS I have to give him his due. He was truly great. Great in no matter what he drove. A Jordan(which he had no business qualifying that high) great in a Bennetton that wasn't necessarily ready to challenge for wins yet but he did anyway and great in a piece of **** Ferrari... we'll not see his kind for a long while..

 

[MOFS]

No offense, but we're never going to compare Jensen Button to MS. Ever. As much as I despise MS I have to give him his due. He was truly great. Great in no matter what he drove. A Jordan(which he had no business qualifying that high) great in a Bennetton that wasn't necessarily ready to challenge for wins yet but he did anyway and great in a piece of **** Ferrari... we'll not see his kind for a long while..

I'd agree with you there pachyderm. Schumi was able to win in the Benetton-Ford (woefully underpowered compared to the Renault). He even managed to beat Mansell in his totally dominant 1992 season! Brawn's comparisons to Schumi are on his ability to get the car to do what he needs to do; taking pole in Monaco and Bahrain, going quick even on the non-prime tyre (IMHO what has won him races this season), and good in the rain. Button is good - don't forget he managed to come third to the Ferraris in his BAR without winning a race and when Ferraris dominated the season - and is probably on of the best drivers around (along with Kubica, Kimi, Lewis, Massa and Vettel), but Schumi was truly great.

 

[djellison]

No offense, but we're never going to compare Jensen Button to MS. Ever.

They are different types of character, but both are obviously highly talented. And I think this opportunity that Jenson has got has made him focus very hard on what is happening, what it is and why it is happening - so he is similar [to Michael] in that respect.

I'll leave the comparisons up to the man who is in a better position than ANYONE else to make them.

 

[Superman07]

Sequentially:

1) FOTA had an understanding that any team signing on for 2010 independent of a group decision would be suspended from the organization
2) Williams, obligated by contracts - including those to FIA and sponsors, submitted their application for 2010
3) FOTA suspended Williams

Until I read the part about contractually obligated I was more concerned. I think all parties understand it was a move of necessity, and not of choice in an attempt to get out ahead of the other FOTA teams. Regardless, I hope this entire budget cap mess can get straightended out soon.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75646