Totally agree. Someone can create a new topic to debate the utility of an ethernet port, SSD or ODD. Those subjects are not the objective of this debate.
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2012 Macbook Pro Redesign
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Totally agree. Someone can create a new topic to debate the utility of an ethernet port, SSD or ODD. Those subjects are not the objective of this debate.
pgiguere1
macrumors 68020
You never know, they did eat up the cost of the new iPad's Retina Display and its insane (almost twice the previous capacity) battery. Those were the two most expensive components on a 16GB iPad and the cost of production went up around 50% according to the iSuppli breakdown, yet the selling price stayed at 499$.
Don't forget that Apple usually has a lower margin at the beginning of a design cycle than at its end, and I'm sure the MBP will be no exception. Even if they only put regular hard drive in standard configurations, the Retina Display alone will make the hardware cost/selling price ratio better than previously.
You also have to consider that SSD prices went down since they introduced them in Macs, you can now buy them individually for around 1$/GB, and Apple's price is obviously way lower than that since not only would they place a very large order, but they now actually own a flash memory firm, so they would only pay the production cost. I'm guessing it would cost them maybe 100-150$ for 256GB of SSD, which is less than the estimated price of the upcoming (and pretty much confirmed) 15" Retina Display.
Profit margins for current Mac laptops are estimated at 28%. The current MBP probably has a higher profit margin than the MBA, so let's assume it has around 35% margin, meaning around 1,170$ of costs to make a 1800$ 15" MBP. Let's say now it would be 100$ more for the Retina Display, 150$ more for 256GB of SSD, 15$ less for the removal of the SuperDrive and 40$ less for the removal of the 500GB hard drive. Let's also add 20$ for a ~30% bigger battery. That would make the production cost go up to 1,385$ (23% margin) and up only 18% from the previous MBP. Like I said, the new iPad's cost went up almost 50%, so it's not completely inimaginable to see that happen.
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I don't care!
I'm man enough To recognize i'm a fanboy and will stay with the new retina MacBook pro!
Don't care about ethernet! Just want a discent discrete gpu, retina and ssd! 256gb is more than enough!
Thank you Apple for your existance!
I'm man enough To recognize i'm a fanboy and will stay with the new retina MacBook pro!
Don't care about ethernet! Just want a discent discrete gpu, retina and ssd! 256gb is more than enough!
Thank you Apple for your existance!
I think I am one of those who really likes having a built in ethernet port (as well as CD drive) but if I had to get rid of them I would adapt.
I primarily use ethernet because I am often on wifi with lots of other devices and the speed increase is incredibly noticeable. Fortunately, 99% of the time I'm on ethernet I could get away with having an adapter as a "permanent" help.
Same with an optical drive. I like having it because I use it reasonably often. But I nearly never NEED it in a place I could not have access to an external drive.
It's a tradeoff. I personally would LOVE to have the entire optical drive replaced with more battery for a huge boost in battery life (though an increase in weight likely too).
BLAH! i hate waiting. my old macbook (2005) just finally gave up. I wish the new mbp's were released already. never realized how hard life would be without a laptop.
I've been waiting for the new MBPs for a little while now, but I'm a little concerned about the removal of the optical drive.
I only have windows machines at home and I have a copy of Adobe CS 5.5 waiting to be installed on my new MBP. Will I be able to create a bootable image on a USB stick from my windows machine or do I need to plan on buying the external DVD drive for the MBP?
I only have windows machines at home and I have a copy of Adobe CS 5.5 waiting to be installed on my new MBP. Will I be able to create a bootable image on a USB stick from my windows machine or do I need to plan on buying the external DVD drive for the MBP?
Ok, I think everybody needs to calm down. It's like the ODD argument from a couple months ago. There's been so much bickering going on, it has gotten to the point where it's like each camp (ethernet supporters and ethernet removal supporters) is talking to a brick wall, with no CONSTRUCTIVE feedback about the other's argument.
And keep in mind, at this point Apple has made its decision on whether it's going to keep it or not and these new laptops are being produced as we errr type (I hope 😛). Obviously some people will be disappointed, regardless of whether Apple has decided to keep the ethernet port or exclude it, so voicing that concern is perfectly fine. After all, these forums are designed to express one's view on a specific topic and I honestly really enjoy coming to this site, multiple times a day, to read other people's opinions and insights, as I'm sure many others do as well. This is especially true for me since I'm new to the Mac community (this will be my first Apple computer and Im very excited 😀) so I'd like to learn everything I've been missing out on and because, while I think I'm a pretty smart college student (key phrase: I think haha), there are many in this community that are much more tech savvy than I'll ever be and can explain complicated things that I dont understand in a clear manner.
All that being said, however,, I FIRMLY believe that it is important to acknowledge that some people still require the ethernet port at this time and that several people here have provided some good reasoning and examples of when it is still required (such as security reasons or when USB 2 transfer speeds are insuffient for large files). When Person A says that those points by Person B about keeping ethernet are 'stupid', it only undermines Person A's argument since many times, Person B's points do have some merit to them. As a result, Person A appears both stubborn and incapable of identifying a good point so people are going to be less inclined to see his or her point too and the cycle goes on and on. The same goes for points made by people who want ethernet removed that are bashed by those in favor of keeping it.
Additionally, Id like to point out that while many are telling those who need ethernet that they can use a USB 3 or a thunderbolt adapter if the ethernet port is removed, the fact is that right now those products are not available and we neither know when they will be produced nor the cost of them, which could be a pain if a company will require many of these adapters.
Just put yourself in the shoes of someone who requires Ethernet and think about how he or she may be stressing over the fact that productivity may slow down because transferring large files for that company will now take 2-3 times as long (I'm just ballparking that rate so feel free to correct me 😀) until the new adapter comes out or that they may even have to switch to a Windows laptop, just for the full ethernet speed, and then will have to use a different operating system, which is not always easy to adjust to for some people. That last scenario was a little extreme but who knows, it could happen
I'm not someone who requires ethernet and I rarely use it since my college is fortunate enough to have a wireless campus but I can try to imagine how it would feel if I did require an ethernet connection for work and I heard this rumor which seems likely to come true. The number of people in this type of situation is obviously up for debate but there are some right here that are proof that some people do so its important to be respectful to them, as they are probably stressing out like I described earlier, and not tell them things like Oh well, sucks to suck or Youre the minority so nobody cares or something along those lines. People posting on these forums are still real people lol, and feeling like you and your business are potentially going to hit a bump in productivity because a company that youve supported and depend upon is no longer fully supporting your needs cant feel too good, especially during an economic time like this.
The way I see it, yelling and being disrespectful to someone else on these forums is not going to change that other person's opinion on the matter and instead makes other members less inclined to side with the one yelling. I cannot recall one situation in which two people yelling their views at each other and calling the other's point as 'stupid' or 'idiotic' has resulted in one of them saying, "You know what? You're right, that point I made was dumb and I now agree with your argument"; at least not sarcastically lol. Instead, the argument becomes more heated, less rational, and less likely that either person will concede that the other person is making a good case for their view. When arguments become that heated, they become more based on emotions rather than on rational thinking and as a result, the argument doesn't get either side anywhere, it just makes everyone angry.
Instead, if you're responding to someone's post, you should first say why or why not their point is valid, in a respectful manner, and then proceed to explain why your point carries more weight than that person's point. If you two can see that the other person's concerns and views are legitimate but you two still cant agree over which point carries more weight based on the presented arguments, that's ok; people have different values. It's more important that all these views are clearly stated and debated in a healthy manner and who knows, they could convince and persuade others who are just reading the forum.
Finally, if Apple does in fact remove the ethernet port, it's better for someone to send feedback to Apple (or email Tim Cook directly - he occasionally responds) expressing his or her disapproval of Apples decision once you see and use the new product (obviously after the release lol, it'd be premature to send that now based on a rumor, but then again, nothing is stopping you either) rather than passionately defending the ethernet port to some random person on this forum who, even if he or she does become convinced to keep it, has no control over Apple's decisions anyway.
People can obviously choose to ignore this post or even down vote it, partially for how long it is 😛 but I hope at least some people will try to follow the advice I have written. Im excited to see the new slimmer design but also hope they manage to keep the Ethernet port although as I have stated, it is not essential or anything for MY purposes. To those who require an Ethernet port, I hope that a convenient solution becomes available and that other members of MacRumors can help you out.
And keep in mind, at this point Apple has made its decision on whether it's going to keep it or not and these new laptops are being produced as we errr type (I hope 😛). Obviously some people will be disappointed, regardless of whether Apple has decided to keep the ethernet port or exclude it, so voicing that concern is perfectly fine. After all, these forums are designed to express one's view on a specific topic and I honestly really enjoy coming to this site, multiple times a day, to read other people's opinions and insights, as I'm sure many others do as well. This is especially true for me since I'm new to the Mac community (this will be my first Apple computer and Im very excited 😀) so I'd like to learn everything I've been missing out on and because, while I think I'm a pretty smart college student (key phrase: I think haha), there are many in this community that are much more tech savvy than I'll ever be and can explain complicated things that I dont understand in a clear manner.
All that being said, however,, I FIRMLY believe that it is important to acknowledge that some people still require the ethernet port at this time and that several people here have provided some good reasoning and examples of when it is still required (such as security reasons or when USB 2 transfer speeds are insuffient for large files). When Person A says that those points by Person B about keeping ethernet are 'stupid', it only undermines Person A's argument since many times, Person B's points do have some merit to them. As a result, Person A appears both stubborn and incapable of identifying a good point so people are going to be less inclined to see his or her point too and the cycle goes on and on. The same goes for points made by people who want ethernet removed that are bashed by those in favor of keeping it.
Additionally, Id like to point out that while many are telling those who need ethernet that they can use a USB 3 or a thunderbolt adapter if the ethernet port is removed, the fact is that right now those products are not available and we neither know when they will be produced nor the cost of them, which could be a pain if a company will require many of these adapters.
Just put yourself in the shoes of someone who requires Ethernet and think about how he or she may be stressing over the fact that productivity may slow down because transferring large files for that company will now take 2-3 times as long (I'm just ballparking that rate so feel free to correct me 😀) until the new adapter comes out or that they may even have to switch to a Windows laptop, just for the full ethernet speed, and then will have to use a different operating system, which is not always easy to adjust to for some people. That last scenario was a little extreme but who knows, it could happen
I'm not someone who requires ethernet and I rarely use it since my college is fortunate enough to have a wireless campus but I can try to imagine how it would feel if I did require an ethernet connection for work and I heard this rumor which seems likely to come true. The number of people in this type of situation is obviously up for debate but there are some right here that are proof that some people do so its important to be respectful to them, as they are probably stressing out like I described earlier, and not tell them things like Oh well, sucks to suck or Youre the minority so nobody cares or something along those lines. People posting on these forums are still real people lol, and feeling like you and your business are potentially going to hit a bump in productivity because a company that youve supported and depend upon is no longer fully supporting your needs cant feel too good, especially during an economic time like this.
The way I see it, yelling and being disrespectful to someone else on these forums is not going to change that other person's opinion on the matter and instead makes other members less inclined to side with the one yelling. I cannot recall one situation in which two people yelling their views at each other and calling the other's point as 'stupid' or 'idiotic' has resulted in one of them saying, "You know what? You're right, that point I made was dumb and I now agree with your argument"; at least not sarcastically lol. Instead, the argument becomes more heated, less rational, and less likely that either person will concede that the other person is making a good case for their view. When arguments become that heated, they become more based on emotions rather than on rational thinking and as a result, the argument doesn't get either side anywhere, it just makes everyone angry.
Instead, if you're responding to someone's post, you should first say why or why not their point is valid, in a respectful manner, and then proceed to explain why your point carries more weight than that person's point. If you two can see that the other person's concerns and views are legitimate but you two still cant agree over which point carries more weight based on the presented arguments, that's ok; people have different values. It's more important that all these views are clearly stated and debated in a healthy manner and who knows, they could convince and persuade others who are just reading the forum.
Finally, if Apple does in fact remove the ethernet port, it's better for someone to send feedback to Apple (or email Tim Cook directly - he occasionally responds) expressing his or her disapproval of Apples decision once you see and use the new product (obviously after the release lol, it'd be premature to send that now based on a rumor, but then again, nothing is stopping you either) rather than passionately defending the ethernet port to some random person on this forum who, even if he or she does become convinced to keep it, has no control over Apple's decisions anyway.
People can obviously choose to ignore this post or even down vote it, partially for how long it is 😛 but I hope at least some people will try to follow the advice I have written. Im excited to see the new slimmer design but also hope they manage to keep the Ethernet port although as I have stated, it is not essential or anything for MY purposes. To those who require an Ethernet port, I hope that a convenient solution becomes available and that other members of MacRumors can help you out.
I was planning to eventually, but there's nothing "Pro" about forced upgrading. Besides, TB hard drives are still stupid expensive, and a TB CF reader still doesn't exist, despite the fact that pro and prosumer photographers would be all over it.
pgiguere1
macrumors 68020
I can't believe there is still no Thunderbolt to FireWire adapter. I wouldn't have minded the removal of FireWire port if it was the case, but now we will be left with no way to connect FireWire peripherals on all Mac laptops. I feel like upgrading but I need FireWire.
I think the biggest surprise will be what they're going to do with the 13 inch. It's really go-time for Apple to differentiate it from the MacBook Air. Anyone think the dedicated GPU will find it's way to the 13 inch?
First of all, thanks for a well-structured, rational and interesting answer. Your exhaustive approach was a joy to read.
Now, I do not know any of these values (and you assume some of then as well) so I can't objectively counter any of them, as I find them reasonable. However, I don't see how the fact Apple owns a flash memory company will make their order to Samsung any cheaper. It'd be cheaper if they made it themselves. Furthermore, we're talking Samsung here: if there's a company they might be less willing to provide a good deal to, it'll be Apple. I'm not saying they cut economical ties - as that would not be smart from a business strategy point -, but I doubt Apple can get such cheap prices on SSDs.
Furthermore, I''m not sure Apple will want to go all the way down to 256GB again. It's definetly enough for many people (I'd dare say "the majority of people), but so was 320GB and they still bumped it to 500GB last revision.
Finally, there might be other things adding to the MBP's cost. Starting with the 8 GB of RAM. The new display's technology (IPS) might add a bit as well. Am not sure if 802.11ac would add cost too. And finally -and most importantly - a redesign costs a LOT of money. This is money Apple has invested and that it expects to retrieve in the long run. Trying out new ideas, form factors, experimenting with manufacturing processes... all of this costs a lot of money, and the MBP's "true" profit won't be as large once you factor this in.
I'm not a HDD-fanboy by any means; I just feel we need to be realistic for the next Mac (which will be my first one, so excited! 😀). After USB 3.0, a redesign ans retina display, expecting anything more feels more like daydreaming than anything else.
I do hope you're right though 😉
EDIT: actually, with everything in Mountain Lion being retina-ready, I wonder if 256GB will be comfortable enough.
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I hope the MacBook Pro gets finally a PRO config. I will be happy to spend over $2000 for the 15' with a high capacity SSD, Retina Display, USB3, etc.... Im tired to see kids with a MacBook Pro that just use Facebook. In my opinion there must be a a high differentiation between the two main lines.
Air -> Kids, facebook users, and so on...
Pro -> Professionals, graphics designers, etc...
Right now this difference doesn't exist.
And, I'm sad to say this, but to differentiate the two main lines a huge price difference must be present.
Let's say Air between 800-1200$, Pro between $2000-3000
My two cents.
Air -> Kids, facebook users, and so on...
Pro -> Professionals, graphics designers, etc...
Right now this difference doesn't exist.
And, I'm sad to say this, but to differentiate the two main lines a huge price difference must be present.
Let's say Air between 800-1200$, Pro between $2000-3000
My two cents.
What you fail to understand is that "pro" users (graphic designers, audio mixers, CAD engineers, etc) are probably less than 5% of the market, whereas the other 95% of the cake is what you label as "kids, facebook users, etc".
Why on Earth should Apple dedicate an entire product line to a 5% of the market? Look at the Mac Pro: Apple is not updating it any more. Why? because there's little money in the true "pro" niche. The real money is in the consumer market, and that's what Apple is targeting.
Why do you think iPads, iPods, iPhones, etc are Apple's milking cow now a days? Because they're products targeted to that consumer market, not to the "pro" market.
Both "air" and "pro" are both just labels. Just drop it with the "yeah but pro means this and that" discussion already. In the end, there may be casual users who have greater performance needs, or professional users who can't afford or don't entirely need the MBPs power.
I do find it rather snobbish when people complain about what others use Apple machines for. Why does it matter to you if a kid has a MBP to watch cartoons on or a teen to go on Facebook? It's of no relevance to others at all. If they want to waste their money on a machine which in theory is too powerful for their needs then that's their choice. It's almost like people want to feel like they're in an elite club and if they see someone using it for a purpose which they deem unacceptable for their elite club then they're frustrated by it.
Anandtech: A 45W quad-core Ivy Bridge with an Nvidia GT 650M in an 11.6" chassis for under $1400.
...not that it has much relevance to the new MBPs, but it's interesting to keep track of what PC manufacturers are doing with their smaller notebooks.
...not that it has much relevance to the new MBPs, but it's interesting to keep track of what PC manufacturers are doing with their smaller notebooks.
Pro users of high end graphics cards make up less than 5% of the market, but the true honey pot of users are in the mid-market video cards.
A viable business strategy is to vie to be the "best xxx brand" with your flagship product and to back it up with similar looking, higher margin mid-low market products.