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2017 MacBook Pro 13 non-TB Review
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The bottom line is that the butterfly keyboard mechanisms on the new MBP and rMB are faulty. Apple sacrificed reliability for aesthetics and thinness. They might not have know it during design and testing. But, real world use seems to be making this pretty clear.
The keyboard is one of the most important parts of the laptop experience. I have no idea how many millimeters of thickness they saved using super tight tolerances for this new keyboard, but it is hard to believe that it was worth it. My guess is there will be a full class action law suite before this is all over, and Apple will need to significantly change the design at some point. No way I would buy one of these.
The keyboard is one of the most important parts of the laptop experience. I have no idea how many millimeters of thickness they saved using super tight tolerances for this new keyboard, but it is hard to believe that it was worth it. My guess is there will be a full class action law suite before this is all over, and Apple will need to significantly change the design at some point. No way I would buy one of these.
I hope the Thread-Opener will win at last.
I had similar, but not so spectacular "experiences" with apple "service" concerning warranty...
apple does not care about their customers since now 10 years.
What I am interested in:
Is perhaps the clamshell mode responsible for a part of the thermal problems?
Could be interesting to compare temperatures with opened notebook and in clamshell mode...
I had similar, but not so spectacular "experiences" with apple "service" concerning warranty...
apple does not care about their customers since now 10 years.
What I am interested in:
Is perhaps the clamshell mode responsible for a part of the thermal problems?
Could be interesting to compare temperatures with opened notebook and in clamshell mode...
This might seem ridiculous, but I had to register an account just to make this comment. I have been reading Macrumors (very sporadically) for years, as I work in the tech industry. I have been working with Windows for many, many years, but I have finally grown tired due to Win 10 and other issues.
I entered the site today to check on rumors regarding new models, and if nothing weird was found I was going out to my local Apple store and have a look at and perhaps buy myself a macbook.
Guess what? Not happening. Thank you for openly sharing this story.
I entered the site today to check on rumors regarding new models, and if nothing weird was found I was going out to my local Apple store and have a look at and perhaps buy myself a macbook.
Guess what? Not happening. Thank you for openly sharing this story.
Avoid new MBP like a plague. Mac OS on the other hand is still worth it. I'm in IT as well, and using windows/linux/macos all the time. I have no major issues with any OS mentioned.
But I do prefer Mac OS. By a long shot.
Just keep an eye out for update, and then check here again. And on other places as well.
It's really strange that Apple released this keyboard. I love the feel of it. Took some getting used to, but after a day or two, I really love it. But reliability isn't there yet. While some claim not to have any problems with keyboard, I simply couldn't recommend anyone to purchase this redesigned MBP at the moment.
For some people. Let's keep to facts here, saying they are all faulty is exaggerating. Yes it seems the evidence suggests that some are prone to issues, like any product. And maybe that percentage is higher for this generation of MBP than previous ones, however as I've shown previously if you Google "Macbook Pro Keyboard 20xx not working" you will find every other MBP can suffer similar keyboard problems too.
But to say they are all faulty is simply not true as I and other people can testify, and if potential buyers are being put off them because of a small number of issues, that is a shame.
Even if it's thousands of cases, Apple have sold millions of these things so if it really was as pandemic as some people claim, they would have done a recall by now.
I would guess that it is more than just some. I'm not arguing that there are definitely some reliability issues with the new MBP's keyboard. I have not experienced this at all with my 2016 MBP, but the keyboard does not seem to be as reliable as previous versions.
But if it were only some people out of the millions who have purchased a 2016/17 MBP who didn't have a problem, I think it might be a much bigger problem for Apple than it is currently. There would be millions of users complaining all over every type of website, not just those for Apple/tech enthusiasts, and Apple might have been hit with adverse litigation a number of times.
This leads me to conclude that the people who have experienced reliability issues are in the minority.
Exactly. If it were as widespread as one would think by reading MR or other sites there would have been a recall or some other publicized outcome.
Yeah, Windows works fine for most things (due to the wide dev support etc), I am just not too fond of powershell, the mix between new and old uietc. And I just love the look of the macos and the combination of a decent shell. So, in light of Apple messing up the Macbook Pro line I suppose I will ge t a nice PC and run good old Linux.
Also, the new keyboards are, aside from being a mess feel-wise and quality wise just LOUD. I'd buy a new Macbook Pro (sans touch bar) if they had the old keyboard design (2015 models).
I would consider getting a 2015 MacBook Pro - they are still available new from Apple and other retailers, sometimes at a discount. I had to get a 2015 MBP and it was £200 off at John Lewis which offers a 2 year warranty, which is more than the 1 year Apple warranty.
Company I work in banned purchase of new MBP. You can buy a MBP, but just the 2015 version. Out of 60 MBP 2016, more then half had broken keys (can't remember the exact number).
How you use your MBP also reflects keyboard failure. People who render a lot of video have higher keyboard failures (heat). People who use them for surfing, mail, office, etc. -> less keyboard failures, or none at all.
And for people like me, who take their MBP to the field trips, well... My MBP had stuck keys in just 2 weeks. After my company gave me a replacement, that one failed as well. After that I've moved to Lenovo, at my own request. Later on, company refused to purchase any additional redesigned MBP.
Obviously, Apple is not going to release keyboard failure rates to the public, so all we have to go on is anecdotal information, such as the sampling shared.....Not necessarily scientific......but useful nonetheless.
One of the big reasons I come to forums like MR is to hear first hand user experience with products prior to making a purchase decision. I recognize there will be a certain amount of hyperbole in some complaints that are posted, but in some instances, there is a faulty design that just can’t be ignored.
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Two more examples:
Two more examples:
- The technical staff member at Covent Garden London Apple store told me that "the repair rooms are full of them" referring to the keyboard repairs.
- The authorised apple repair centre in Kingston London, who have been repairing Apple products for many years, told me that since the 2015 models, the quality of the hardware has fallen dramatically. He was speaking more generally than the keyboard. Based on what he saw coming in for repair, he wouldn't recommend anything newer than the 2016 MacBook Pros.
Okay, so there were about 35 or so faulty keyboards out of 60. Definitely not an acceptable failure rate, but it still does not represent enough data to determine how many failures have occured out of the millions sold and whether or not this is a statistically important failure rate.
Good point about how you use your MBP. I personally don’t do any video rendering so the fan barely ever turns on in my 2016. If your use case involves a lot of heat there could be a greater risk of failure.
What kind of field work are you doing? To deserts and jungles? Are you in locations with extreme environments? Just curious as I travel a lot with my MBP and write extensively on it while traveling and 14 months later have had no keyboard problems.
Even if it’s a 1% failure rate, considering the cost of these machines, the fact that losing a key will pretty much brick it, and the fact it’s a whole top case replacement job means you really don’t want to be that 1%. I don’t know if they would push their luck with not replacing out of warranty failures free of charge, but again that’s a pricy risk to take.
Yes, heat is definitely a defining factor here. I've had two keyboards fail, and both worked fine as long as keyboard and case were cool but started acting up as soon as things got hot and steamy. However, there seem to be two different issues that may or may not be directly or indirectly related.
Heat: heat, especially constant warmth over long periods of time and not so much extreme heat in short bursts, results in sticky, noisy, and mushy keys. Occasionally, keys may stop responding to input altogether. As soon as the keyboard cools down the keys resume normal operation again.
Dust/dirt: this will make your keyboard fail spectacularly: it has the potential to break the butterfly mechanism permanently. A single spec of dust can cause your space bar (or any other key for that matter, but it seems that the keys most often affected by this are space, b, and v) to fail completely, and we all know what that means.
That's why I keep saying that the new MacBook Pro's two arch-nemeses are heat and specks of dust
I'm not claiming it is statistically important. But to our company it is. It's the only statistic we needed. Previous MBP had 0 keyboard failures. Unless if we count in spilled coffee, beer, etc.
I work for a betting company. So no, I don't go in deserts, and similarly harsh areas. But I do travel a lot to a different places. And often have to eat at my desk, near my laptop. And spend a lot of time in dusty/unclean areas as well. From server rooms, all the way down to simple bet shops (english is not my main language, so if 'bet shop' doesn't mean anything to you, please say so, I will gladly elaborate more).
And as a developer, I do type a lot. But keys that have failed me most often are spacebar, and bracket keys. Probably because I use those a lot. And from small dust that gets below keyboard. At least my honest guess.
But for example, I got Lenovo P series laptop for quite some time now. Not even one problem with keyboard. Or older gen MBP. Not a single keyboard problem what so ever.
I don't like windows, but it gets the job done in my circumstances. But what I do LOVE is Lenovo keyboard. I remember the old thinkpad days, those things were a tank. And (imho) best keyboards ever. Lenovo keeps them around, since I really love this keyboard.
But I would gladly switch to a MBP back again, since I love Mac OS. If Apple fixes the keyboard issue, I will gladly ask for a MBP again. And since my boss is a die-hard apple fan, he would be glad if that happened. On the other hand, I'm not an apple fan anymore. To many failures lately.
I would use Linux if I could for my work. And switch completely to Linux. But I can't. So Mac OS is still the best for me. I just hope TC gets his act together, stop doing politics, and devotes himself to apple products completely.
I'm not claiming it is statistically important. But to our company it is. It's the only statistic we needed. Previous MBP had 0 keyboard failures. Unless if we count in spilled coffee, beer, etc.
I work for a betting company. So no, I don't go in deserts, and similarly harsh areas. But I do travel a lot to a different places. And often have to eat at my desk, near my laptop. And spend a lot of time in dusty/unclean areas as well. From server rooms, all the way down to simple bet shops (english is not my main language, so if 'bet shop' doesn't mean anything to you, please say so, I will gladly elaborate more).
And as a developer, I do type a lot. But keys that have failed me most often are spacebar, and bracket keys. Probably because I use those a lot. And from small dust that gets below keyboard. At least my honest guess.
But for example, I got Lenovo P series laptop for quite some time now. Not even one problem with keyboard. Or older gen MBP. Not a single keyboard problem what so ever.
I don't like windows, but it gets the job done in my circumstances. But what I do LOVE is Lenovo keyboard. I remember the old thinkpad days, those things were a tank. And (imho) best keyboards ever. Lenovo keeps them around, since I really love this keyboard.
But I would gladly switch to a MBP back again, since I love Mac OS. If Apple fixes the keyboard issue, I will gladly ask for a MBP again. And since my boss is a die-hard apple fan, he would be glad if that happened. On the other hand, I'm not an apple fan anymore. To many failures lately.
I would use Linux if I could for my work. And switch completely to Linux. But I can't. So Mac OS is still the best for me. I just hope TC gets his act together, stop doing politics, and devotes himself to apple products completely.
The tragedy is that these are supposed to be MacBook Pro devices. For professional workloads. Like data crunching, video processing, compiling code, renderings scenes. They're not supposed to be mere email and web clients.
And yet, as all the video evidence shows, even basic stuff like Netflix and youtube, will stress these machines too much. I even posted a video showing the fresh install from USB cause the fans to go to maximum.
If these were £300 netbook like clients, fine. But they're £1800 to £2500 professional laptops.
That's the tragedy.
Well, on this part I really have to disagree with you. MBP 2017 fans are the best fans ever on a laptop. Completely silent 99% of the time. Unless you are stressing the cpu/gpu too much, but that is what they are for.
That was my impression at least.
But then again, I would stay away from MBP until Apple fixes keyboard issues. I also want a non-tb 15" version. Even if they fix the keyboard, I don't plan on using any laptop with TB in my life time again. I need my ESC key, and TB is a completely useless gimmick. For me at least.
I agree about TB. The non-TB is the superior keybaord with real keys.
Sorry we disagree about heat and fans. Connecting a MBP to a 4k display shouldn't stress it this much when watching Netflix or YouTube. They even advertise it supporting more than 1 external 4K display at 60hz ...
I thought you were talking just about using the built in screen, not external screen. Then we don't disagree, at least not completely. I know that MBP 15 can push LG 5K without fans going wild. But honestly, I have no idea how the 13" behaves, or even 13" non-tb. I will have to make a leap of faith and trust you on that one. Especially for the non-tb version, since fan on that one is pretty bad to begin with.
Making purchasing decisions entirely based on a story on the internet is a very interesting life strategy. Do you do that for everything you own? If so I imagine you only have a couple of pillows and walk everywhere.