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2017 MacBook Pro 13 non-TB Review

Well I'm not saying you fear or afraid of Apple or anything, it's quite the opposite that you've demonstrated here.
I'm just saying that at this point, you're mostly chasing rabbit and if you feel the time you spend on this matter worth it then feel free to do so.
Best of luck though.
 
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buran-energia said:
Re those 2 last videos, seems like something is eating that CPU and it's constantly in Turbo Boost (?), so without activity monitor open, it's hard to say what the issue is.

As for external monitors, I read that even the 2015 15 with a dGPU gets warm just with a 1080p monitor attached (unlike 13'). You are using 4k with this model... Still, I think the issue here is mainly not the 4k monitor, but something to do with CPU load. Get it out of the case if there's one. Also as a test, you could try disabling Turbo Boost with some app.

What's the temps without Affinity photo, just idle with 4k monitor? If this program has a glitch that eats 100% of your CPU, then with other things considered, everyone would be getting this problem with ntb model.

Edit: the screen with the BBC iPlayer makes no sense. It shows fans at full throttle while the CPU and GPU temps are at 74? It shouldn't be running at full speed. Maybe some other software is setting the fan speed? I'm pretty sure the laptop wasn't designed to go to 7200 rpm at such temps.
Click to expand...

I can confirm that the turbo boost seems to be the problem because on my Mac it is very sensible.

A small load gets the cpu running at 3.6GHz right away making the temperatures rise in seconds to 95-100 degrees C and this for many minutes. It doesn't throttle at all (which is nice) but it makes the fan going crazy with loads that don't really require that much CPU power.

My MacBook air runs the same load without turbo boosting (and it has turbo boost from 1.4 to 2.7 GHz) so it doesn't get hot and the fans are just working 1500-1600rpm.

I have disabled the turbo boost of the mbp 13' and it stays at 2.3 GHz, everything works fine but I think I shouldn't be forced to do the computer's job manually, this is nonsense.

I will see how the replacement Mac behaves and if it does the same I will return it on the same day.
 
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Update 35 - 9/11/2017 - Keyboard Failing .. Again
  • Yesterday, the keyboard started to have problems again. Again around the top left, around the letter E, but also around the spacebar this time. The ESC key has been occasionally non-responsive for about 2 weeks. This seems to correlate to when the laptop is hot (overheating under basic tasks is a key theme of this thread).
  • This is the keyboard that Apple recently replaced as part of the warranty.
  • The evidence that the 2017 MacBook Pro design itself is faulty continues to mount.
 
Update 36 - 9/11/2017 - Turbo Boost
  • A few people have Kindly suggested that Turbo Boost is the problem. The CPU will speed up for a brief period to accommodate demanding tasks, and then slow back down again. The theory is fine. My 2015 rMBPro did that too.
  • I tried the Turbo Boost Switcher tool recommended by several people to turn off Turbo Boost. Having observed the effects with it on and off over 2 full days of working my day I conclude that it helps a bit. But not enough to fix the problem.
  • Here is the fan at max (actually over the 7200 rpm limit) with BBC iplayer in chrome, and google gmail, drive, docs, Tweetdeck, and an openprocessing.org sketch tabs in Safari. None of that is particularly unusual of taxing, especially for a pro machine. Remember, the MacBook Pros are supposed to be more capable than a mere Chromebook for web based working.
DOOP7CTWAAEtk-9.jpg


DOOP7BBXUAAh0Yn.jpg
  • It seems the issue is deeper than disabling Turbo Boost can fix.
  • Even if disabling Turbo Boost could fix the issue, it would be unsatisfactory with respect to Apple's design of the 2017 MacBook Pro nTB. We shouldn't have to fix the problem by disabling a key feature of the CPU. And .. it all worked fine on the 2015 rMBP 13.
 
project_2501 said:
Update 36 - 9/11/2017 - Turbo Boost
  • A few people have Kindly suggested that Turbo Boost is the problem. The CPU will speed up for a brief period to accommodate demanding tasks, and then slow back down again. The theory is fine. My 2015 rMBPro did that too.
  • I tried the Turbo Boost Switcher tool recommended by several people to turn off Turbo Boost. Having observed the effects with it on and off over 2 full days of working my day I conclude that it helps a bit. But not enough to fix the problem.
  • Here is the fan at max (actually over the 7200 rpm limit) with BBC iplayer in chrome, and google gmail, drive, docs, Tweetdeck, and an openprocessing.org sketch tabs in Safari. None of that is particularly unusual of taxing, especially for a pro machine. Remember, the MacBook Pros are supposed to be more capable than a mere Chromebook for web based working.
DOOP7CTWAAEtk-9.jpg


DOOP7BBXUAAh0Yn.jpg
  • It seems the issue is deeper than disabling Turbo Boost can fix.
  • Even if disabling Turbo Boost could fix the issue, it would be unsatisfactory with respect to Apple's design of the 2017 MacBook Pro nTB. We shouldn't have to fix the problem by disabling a key feature of the CPU. And .. it all worked fine on the 2015 rMBP 13.
Click to expand...


Looking here: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/8038497?start=0&tstart=0 it seems you're not alone (unless this is you as well). Looks like the QA testers failed to test with external monitors.
 
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So I re-read your story again, especially update 4. Are you having the same problem with heat and fan like your previous 2016 model :eek:? It's so outrageous.
 
Update 37 - 10/11/2017

  • The Apple "executive liaison" person at Apple has refused a refund because he says there is no hardware fault.
  • In contrast I spent 1.5 hours with the Lead Genius at Apple Covent Gard today and below is an exact copy of their assessment.
  • I discussed at length with the Lead Genius that he should make sure he worded his report carefully as the non-technical "executive liaison" would simplistically be seeking a "yes/no" to a hardware fault.
  • Extremely disappointed with Apple. What next? Small claims court?

Problem Description/Diagnosis
Issue: Customer reports multiple issues that occur with Mac during common everyday tasks: 1) Mac runs too hot when in clamshell mode, 2) When Mac is run in clamshell mode it gets hot to the point that the display is damaged, 3) keys intermittently do not respond, 4) fans spin at full speed,

These issues were present with the customer's original Mac, that Mac was replaced within 14 days of purchase. This Mac (the replacement) has been repaired for the same issues and the customer reports the issues have persisted.

Customer is understandably concerned as the Mac should not run hot or with fans at full speed when doing simple tasks like streaming video.
Typically, when a Mac is doing something simple, it should run silently.

Steps to Reproduce: MRI passed.
Cooling System Diagnostic passed.
Graphics and display test passed.

Issues not verifiable at Genius Bar as we do not have access to the same technology and environmental factors, such as the facility to run the Mac for an extended period of time in clamshell mode while connected to a 4K display.

Customer has provided verifiable evidence of thermal/cooling issues. Customer provided photos showing fan spinning at more than 7000rpm, and videos showing the Mac with fans audibly spinning at full speed.

Customer offered to leave Mac for further testing, but as the technology and environmental factors are not available to test the Mac in the same conditions as the issues occur we have recommended this is not necessary. Lead Genius confirmed Mac should not be left for testing for these reasons.

Cosmetic Condition: As new.

Proposed Resolution: Refer back to executive relations.​
 
Given that you’re wanting to purchase a 2015 model, have you tried asking to return your existing unit for credit and then purchasing the 2015 model from Apple?
 
Watts333 said:
Given that you’re wanting to purchase a 2015 model, have you tried asking to return your existing unit for credit and then purchasing the 2015 model from Apple?
Click to expand...

Yes I did try repeatedly over many weeks to do this. No success.
 
I have to admit that I did not read this entire thread, but I tried to scan the OP's updates. Wow, sounds like it has been an agonizing process!

I have a 2014 MBA, and I was considering replacing it in a year or two. The non-TB MBP seemed like the right device, but after reading this thread, I have my doubts. Hopefully, Apple will straighten this out.

In the meantime, my MBA is working just fine......so, no rush.
 
Update 38 - 20/11/2017

  • Having taken advice from Citizens Advice about my legal options including legal proceeding in a Small Claims Court, I have written a formal letter to Apple UK by recorded delivery (their Uxbridge address), and also copied to the "executive liaison". This is the first step on such legal routes.
  • The "executive liaison" response included the following:
You will no longer receive a response from Apple should you continue to contact me or any other Apple departments via e-mail of telephone in respect of this matter. ​
  • I am led to believe that this may not be legal as in the UK this may "restrict my consumer rights", and I suspect will help my case as the judge will want to see the full history of efforts made by each side to resolve the issue.
[doublepost=1511190896][/doublepost]---

I may not be posting as much detail as previously as I want to ensure any legal procedure has the best chance of success.

Let this thread be a warning to others of how Apple really behaves... the evidence is there for all to see.
 
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project_2501 said:
Update 38 - 20/11/2017

  • Having taken advice from Citizens Advice about my legal options including legal proceeding in a Small Claims Court, I have written a formal letter to Apple UK by recorded delivery (their Uxbridge address), and also copied to the "executive liaison". This is the first step on such legal routes.
  • The "executive liaison" response included the following:
You will no longer receive a response from Apple should you continue to contact me or any other Apple departments via e-mail of telephone in respect of this matter. ​
  • I am led to believe that this may not be legal as in the UK this may "restrict my consumer rights", and I suspect will help my case as the judge will want to see the full history of efforts made by each side to resolve the issue.
[doublepost=1511190896][/doublepost]---

I may not be posting as much detail as previously as I want to ensure any legal procedure has the best chance of success.

Let this thread be a warning to others of how Apple really behaves... the evidence is there for all to see.
Click to expand...

Keep us updated, I was enjoying the almost daily updates! Thought you'd given up :(
 
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project_2501 said:
Update 38 - 20/11/2017

  • Having taken advice from Citizens Advice about my legal options including legal proceeding in a Small Claims Court, I have written a formal letter to Apple UK by recorded delivery (their Uxbridge address), and also copied to the "executive liaison". This is the first step on such legal routes.
  • The "executive liaison" response included the following:
You will no longer receive a response from Apple should you continue to contact me or any other Apple departments via e-mail of telephone in respect of this matter. ​
  • I am led to believe that this may not be legal as in the UK this may "restrict my consumer rights", and I suspect will help my case as the judge will want to see the full history of efforts made by each side to resolve the issue.
[doublepost=1511190896][/doublepost]---

I may not be posting as much detail as previously as I want to ensure any legal procedure has the best chance of success.

Let this thread be a warning to others of how Apple really behaves... the evidence is there for all to see.
Click to expand...

Glad you finally went to the CAB as I suggested weeks ago. Just follow their advice, don't start believing this or that is or isn't legal or finding more stuff to stress about, Apple will have far better lawyers than the volunteer CAB so just take it easy and see what they can do for you.
 
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Update 39 - 20/11/2017 - 100 degrees C !

  • Here is more evidence of overheating with relatively moderate tasks. Transcoding a very short video of length 2m 56 seconds pushes the fans to max and the CPU to 100 degrees C. That's the maximum intended by Intel for these CPUs. This is with the MacBook Pro running on it's own, without a power cable so battery only, and with no external 4k display connected.
  • The problem is that reaching such limits for very minor tasks will damage the laptop and shorten it's life considerably.
  • Screenshots below confirm only Safari (gmail, google drive, google doc), and VLC running to do the transcoding. Note VLC caused no problems with my MacBook Pro 2015, nor with my cheaper ThinkPad.
DPFtIxJXUAAkrZA.png


DPFtIxJW4AMaWlE.jpg
 
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Update 40 - 21/11/2017 - Subject Access Request shows Apple lies
  • Today I received the data Apple hold about me, a right I have under the Data Protection Act, using a procedure called a Subject Access Request (SAR).
  • I am still going through the content but already I have found that Apple have internally lied about me.
  • The "executive liaison" has stated in internal notes that I used "offensive language". This is blatantly false. I expressed my frustration after months of extremely poor, costly and unproductive support, with the words "Do you understand why I am upset?" which I repeated several times, as he talked over me rudely and would not answer. That is not, under any definition, "offensive language".
  • The Data Protection Act also allows me to get copies of the phone recordings, which I will do. It will add weight to my legal case.
  • I'll post more interesting info as I trawl through the data.
 
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project_2501 said:
Update 40 - 21/11/2017 - Subject Access Request shows Apple lies
  • Today I received the data Apple hold about me, a right I have under the Data Protection Act, using a procedure called a Subject Access Request (SAR).
  • I am still going through the content but already I have found that Apple have internally lied about me.
  • The "executive liaison" has stated in internal notes that I used "offensive language". This is blatantly false. I expressed my frustration after months of extremely poor, costly and unproductive support, with the words "Do you understand why I am upset?" which I repeated several times, as he talked over me rudely and would not answer. That is not, under any definition, "offensive language".
  • The Data Protection Act also allows me to get copies of the phone recordings, which I will do. It will add weight to my legal case.
  • I'll post more interesting info as I trawl through the data.
Click to expand...

fantastic news, it's amazing the things you can do if you are committed. Most of us would have conceded by this stage!

If this does go the legal route, I hope you make a strong case over the keyboard flaws, that is my major gripe with this machine! There's an abundance of evidence here and elsewhere!
 
Silver2k said:
fantastic news, it's amazing the things you can do if you are committed. Most of us would have conceded by this stage!

If this does go the legal route, I hope you make a strong case over the keyboard flaws, that is my major gripe with this machine! There's an abundance of evidence here and elsewhere!
Click to expand...

Will do - my keyboard is failing again after the repair which completely replaced it. I is a sad tragedy that the ESCAPE key is failing most, given it is one of the main reasons I opted for an nTB model .. to have a real escape key (the touchbar models don't which is a disaster for programmers and others).

If you want to do a little something to help - share this thread with the evidence on twitter and facebook.

The Subject Access Request shows that Apple do monitor social media, even if they publicly dismiss it as "unrepresentative opinion".
 
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Update 41 - 23/11/2017 More Keyboard Failures

  • So the ESC key is starting to fail. Which is ironic because I got the nTB model because it has a real ESC key - almost a necessity if you're a coder.
  • Today the CONTROL key seems to be stuck on the on position. They itself doesn't seem stuck but it telling the laptop that it is constantly pressed. This means left/single mouse clicks register a right clicks. A right pain.
  • Yet more actual video evidence .. not "opinion" which is what Apple's "executive liaison" called it.
 
OP:

Best solution:
Find a refurbished 2015 or a -new- 15" 2015 (still available from Apple).

Then...
Put the 2017 into the closet and let it be.

Cost you a LOT LESS frustration in life, and perhaps less $$$$, too...
 
Fishrrman said:
OP:

Best solution:
Find a refurbished 2015 or a -new- 15" 2015 (still available from Apple).

Then...
Put the 2017 into the closet and let it be.

Cost you a LOT LESS frustration in life, and perhaps less $$$$, too...
Click to expand...
Thanks for your kind suggestion.

However I am not going to allow Apple to get away with taking £1800 for this laptop. In effect they robbed me.

Once I get a refund I'll get the 2015MBP or a Dell Precision or a ThinkPad P series.
 
project_2501 said:
Thanks for your kind suggestion.

However I am not going to allow Apple to get away with taking £1800 for this laptop. In effect they robbed me.

Once I get a refund I'll get the 2015MBP or a Dell Precision or a ThinkPad P series.
Click to expand...

Your response to Apple robbing you is getting one of their way overpriced at this point 2015 mbp?

I myself have not bought any Apple products since 2015. I waited years for the new Mac Pro and was hugely disappointed, still I was ready to drop $3000+ for the 2016 MBP for my son to start university as it was something he wanted for a long time.

As soon as we tried the new keyboard and the gimmicky touchbar for a couple of days, we were done with it. For a very long time, under Steve's watch, Apple computers were massively superior to anything else on the market at any given price, so it's not a lack of talent that plagues Apple today, but a lack of vision and strong leadership. Evidently Tim Cook can't keep all the talents in Apple under control.
 
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Nixir said:
Your response to Apple robbing you is getting one of their way overpriced at this point 2015 mbp?
Click to expand...

Which according to his first post can't handle 4k video, I don't really see how that's any improvement over a computer that can drive a 4k screen with the fan on.
 
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