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2017 MacBook Pro 13 non-TB Review
- Thread starter project_2501
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Looks like someone else got a full refund: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/keyboard-nail-in-the-coffin.2067352
Their recommendation: "DO NOT PURCHASE A MBP."
[doublepost=1509741786][/doublepost]Well there people who really are trying to downplay the 2016/2017 keyboard problems.
They suggest every new laptop brings people out against them.
So I did a historical comparison between the MacBook Pro 2017, 2015 and the Dell XPS 13 using Google Trends as a rough n ready way to compare. It's clearly statistics not exact science but enough to worry me if I was head of Apple.
https://g.co/trends/MrL3U
And comparing "overheating" .. compared to the 2017 MacBook Pro .. there is almost no issue with the 2015 or the Del XPS 13
https://g.co/trends/jy7iL
[doublepost=1509742590][/doublepost]Update 30 3/11/2017 - legal
Their recommendation: "DO NOT PURCHASE A MBP."
[doublepost=1509741786][/doublepost]Well there people who really are trying to downplay the 2016/2017 keyboard problems.
They suggest every new laptop brings people out against them.
So I did a historical comparison between the MacBook Pro 2017, 2015 and the Dell XPS 13 using Google Trends as a rough n ready way to compare. It's clearly statistics not exact science but enough to worry me if I was head of Apple.
https://g.co/trends/MrL3U
And comparing "overheating" .. compared to the 2017 MacBook Pro .. there is almost no issue with the 2015 or the Del XPS 13
https://g.co/trends/jy7iL
- I asked Apple for a legal "subject access request" which under EU law requires them to pass to me everything they have related to me, within 40 days.
- I am hoping to get some insight into why they have wasted weeks, spent expensive man-hours, ended up lying to me, not responded to my requests for update, and the formal complaint I've raised against the primary customer support person.
- I've also asked for a copy of any phone recordings.
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Just read this whole thing trying to pass time at the end of my week... what a roller coaster you've been on.
I have had pretty poor experiences with Apple's support on computers in the past, but they have at least been resolved amicably, right now, I don't even own an Apple computer and have been looking at replacing my iPhone 7 with a device outside of this ecosystem.. but it would make my Apple Watch a paperweight.. cool.
I have had pretty poor experiences with Apple's support on computers in the past, but they have at least been resolved amicably, right now, I don't even own an Apple computer and have been looking at replacing my iPhone 7 with a device outside of this ecosystem.. but it would make my Apple Watch a paperweight.. cool.
Looks like someone else got a full refund: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/keyboard-nail-in-the-coffin.2067352
Their recommendation: "DO NOT PURCHASE A MBP."
[doublepost=1509741786][/doublepost]Well there people who really are trying to downplay the 2016/2017 keyboard problems.
They suggest every new laptop brings people out against them.
So I did a historical comparison between the MacBook Pro 2017, 2015 and the Dell XPS 13 using Google Trends as a rough n ready way to compare. It's clearly statistics not exact science but enough to worry me if I was head of Apple.
https://g.co/trends/MrL3U
And comparing "overheating" .. compared to the 2017 MacBook Pro .. there is almost no issue with the 2015 or the Del XPS 13
https://g.co/trends/jy7iL
[doublepost=1509742590][/doublepost]Update 30 3/11/2017 - legal
- I asked Apple for a legal "subject access request" which under EU law requires them to pass to me everything they have related to me, within 40 days.
- I am hoping to get some insight into why they have wasted weeks, spent expensive man-hours, ended up lying to me, not responded to my requests for update, and the formal complaint I've raised against the primary customer support person.
- I've also asked for a copy of any phone recordings.
I think I mentioned somewhere else that the Dell XPS lines are wonderful machines! You do need to watch out for coil whine which is apparently a pretty common issue with them (I only bought one and had no issue, but can't speak for the majority). Other than that my son has been using a XPS 13 for his CS degree since 2016 and he loves it, I dare say the UHD screen is at least as good as any mbps out there. I think Dell recently updated the line to the 8th gen intel processors and I suspect they are quite powerful little beasts.
Glad I ran across this thread. I ordered a 13" nTB MBP from an online retailer which arrived yesterday but I haven't opened the box yet since with this retailer you can't return computers once they are open. I was having second thoughts about spending such a large amount of money on the MBP and after seeing all the problems they have it is going back for a refund unopened. Since my mid 2009 MBP died last Friday I've been using an old ThinkPad running Vista which really sucks. But it seems the new MBP wouldn't be any better. I already put in for an RMA and will probably just pick up a cheap windows machine since at least they can play videos pretty effortlessly.
And you are lucky to live in an area with strong consumer protection laws. Something like that happens here and we are SOL and Apple with do nothing about it.
And you are lucky to live in an area with strong consumer protection laws. Something like that happens here and we are SOL and Apple with do nothing about it.
Windows has gotten very good. I use Windows 10 daily at work nowadays (for years I only worked on my own MBPs whenever I can). Also check out some reviews for the XPS 13 https://www.laptopmag.com/reviews/laptops/dell-xps-13
My son and I spent literally months researching the best laptops before he went to uni, it was a tough tough decision between the 2015 mbp and the xps 13, eventually we settled on the Dell. We both liked it more than what the 2016 MBPs had to offer.
I somewhat agree - 4K has been around for a while and I think people in general are expecting computers to be able to handle it no problem whereas in reality it is still no trivial task, especially rendering and upscaling to 4K out - heck even the a10X in the 4K Apple TV - a chip that ordinarily needs no fan - is paired with a fan in that device to keep it cool doing what it’s doing! Having said that, OP did state that it was still spinning up unnecessarily fast just watching 1080p videos without the monitor attached, if that’s true then that is odd behaviour.
I will, I'm keeping the Mac for two weeks until the replacement arrives so I'll try to put more proofs of the problem on the forum.
I really hope you will get a refund, this is not acceptable, it really isn't.
A 2017 device no matter how thin and sleek should not behave like this especially if you want to use chrome or Skype or whatever the **** you want to use because maybe your business or your school requires you to.
An almost 2000$ machine is not a pages/word machine and if it is then I won't be staying with Apple for long because this is not how you treat pro costumers.
Yesterday I was working and my Mac just started to whine when I opened (not even compiled) VS 2015 on my vm. All my coworkers stared at the Mac like if it was some sort of alien, I'm starting to be ashamed just working on it.
I really hope the replacement device will work because mine is starting to annoy me on simple everyday usage.
I don't know where to begin with you New_Mac_Smell but lets start here. Have you been reading the thread? OP's MacBook heats up so much that it requires fans at 100% speed while only watching youtube videos (WITHOUT an external monitor). Are you seriously telling me that that's expected? And "subjective"- amazingly temperature can be expressed numerically, and so can CPU load, and so can everything else you could want in this situation. Again, I'll repeat: fans at 100%, one youtube video playing, no external monitor, no other programs open. Enlighten me on the subjectivity in this please. Go in any Apple store and try a MacBook. Ask Apple if one youtube video is right on the edge of the MacBook's performance envelope. Or how about imagine you had bought a MacBook Pro, opened it, played one video and the thing heated up, fans on 100%, and battery life likely reduced to a few hours.
You've read, I hope, the customer service experience that OP has had. Thats not an acceptable level of service anywhere. It doesn't matter how much effort or how many attempts Apple puts in to repairing OP's MacBook, what matters is that they get it fixed. There's no 'effort' points here. All it would take to resolve the issue is to refund or replace, clearly though Apple will not as they are becoming quite financially tight.
You know, OP's not simply using cost of the machine as evidence that it should work! OP's just expressing what we're all thinking; what a lot of money for something faulty that overheats playing one video and, like we all know, given the specs of the machine it should not be behaving like that. He/she's annoyed, and I don't blame them.
I really can't understand why you have these views. At the end of the day, this is a forum of consumers all interested in one seller. And I think most people here would agree that if a consumer buys something that is faulty, that doesn't perform how it should (don't even try telling us that is), then the seller should do everything it can to resolve it.
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Of course I've read the story, and I've tried to provide balanced reasonable advice. Mainly to stop repeating the cost of the machine and complaining of getting 'hot', as these are not anything outside of the remits of the machine. I appreciate you feel that the way the computer is behaving is not acceptable, what I was trying to do is provide actual options to move forward. As posting endlessly on this forum is not going to achieve that. Personally, I couldn't really care less about Apple - I do however see people chasing ghosts when they could just slightly change their tactic and get actual results. The key is complaining/moaning is not going to get you anywhere as it can always be countered, so I advised to get actual evidence and consolidate that complaint into something that consumer law can deal with. The simple fact is, if there's an issue, go to CAB about it.
As far as I know, Apple have been trying to resolve the issue, and the computer has effectively been replaced at this stage, so it's unlikely to be a single issue with this computer. There's a potential for a more widespread issue, or there's issue with software or setup. Every issue I've seen relates to the use of a 4K monitor and using Flash based software in Chrome, which are notorious for behaving like this. Does this do this when watching YouTube in Safari on the computer? I've not seen it, could have missed it in this thread.
You say "If a consumer buys something that's faulty ... the seller should do everything it can to resolve it". As far as I'm aware, the seller is doing everything they can to resolve this, however this is not the resolution the consumer wants; they want a refund. This is unlikely given the length of time the owner has had the computer, so I have given advice on how to go down that road. As this needs to be seen as a court case, the owner has used and enjoyed the computer for the majority of tasks, only 4K streaming of Chrome has caused issue, so a court is unlikely to refund an entire computer for a say 5% issue when the computer is capable of performing this task, albeit at a higher temperature. So they need to go to the CAB as Apple will just keep trying to repair this and keep the owner satisfied, again this strengthens Apple's case as they have been shown to be taking action. Issues such as late calls or sloppy CS are one thing, but are often exaggerated by an already exhausted consumer.
That's why it's important to post balanced and reasonable help here, not simply jump on the "OMG Apple suck!" bandwagon, as where does that realistically get you other than a few likes from others who have experienced an issue? But hey, if you want to try help the OP then go ahead, if you just want to criticise people who don't hold the same view as you then go ahead, just don't presume people are posting nonsense because of it.
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nTB owner here. Owned it for nearly half a year and haven't encountered a single problem.
You do understand that you're recommending that he spend an extra $800 (if he were to get the base 512 15in MBP) assuming he needs that much storage. Thats a bit of an outlandish recommendation. You also sound silly, I own a nTB 512/16/i7 and my computer can power a 4k display with its hands tied behind its back.
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Thanks for taking the time to offer your advice. It seem quite a few people are confused, perhaps I've not repeated it enough. So here it is in what I hope is super clarity.
Update 31 - 6/11/2017
1. This is not Chrome related.
This happens with Safari and Chrome. It also happens with other basic tasks like running a VM in the latest version of VMWare Fusion, for example. It even happens during the wipe-and-install-from-USB OS installation process.
2. This is not Flash related.
See above.
3. It's not just about disliking the noise - it's about actual damage.
Yes the noise is extremely disruptive. But the more urgent issue is the fact that the overheating causes damage. It damages the keyboard. It wears out the fan faster than it should. It reduces battery life. And right now most urgently it damages the display panel when used in clamshell mode (most of the time). Apple have confirmed this is an issue, and thats why they replaced the display panel. Let me repeat, it's not just about noise.
4. Thin-ness and lightness is not an excuse.
Yes the laptop is thin and light. But if it can't carry out it primary functions - which as a pro laptop it is designed for - then it is a failed design. A piece of paper is thin - but it can't compute. This is not a fashion accessory or an email-machine. This pro laptop is meant to run workloads common for developers, creative professionals, .. and watching Netflix, iplayer, youtube at fullscreen .. or even running a VM is not something new in the industry that should stretch a pro computer costing £1800.
5. Comparisons to other computers are valid.
If a 3 year old cheap £500 Lenovo Thinkpad can do these tasks without overheating or damaging itself, then that is a valid comparison of these computers. It says something about the faulty thermal design of the MacBook Pro 2017 nTB. A more convincing comparison is with the MacBook Pro 13 2015 - which did not have any of these issues. It has a less advanced CPU, less advanced GPU, less power-efficient according to Intel, yet it could play Netflix on a 4k display full screen without any problems. It could run VMs. Lots of them. So something went backwards compared to the 2015 MBPro. And it wasn't the price - an nTB cost me £1800, a maxed out 2015 rMBP13 cost me £1600. Yes, my £280 Android smartphone can play youtube and Netflix and abc iplayer at full HD (1080p) without a fan or overheating such that it gets damaged. The comparison is valid because whatever hardware and software design Google did in that Nexus 5X phone - works. Yet Apple didn't get t right for the MacBook Pro 2017 nTB.
6. Apple is NOT helping
If Apple was helping, this case would not still be open weeks later. I would not be spending hundreds of minutes on calls, dozens on trying to get through, recording that what the Apple staff have told me turns out to be false (aka lies), raising a formal complaint, and being made to go on three wasted journeys to Apple centres, losing the laptop for 10 days while they replace parts which I told them would be a waste of time and money - and it was. I would not have spoken to over 8 different people at Apple. If that's helping .. I'd hate to know what it feels like when they're not helping.
7. It's about a warranty time-bomb
Once the warranty runs out - I'll have those expenses to deal with. It cost Apple over £700 to do the last set of replacement parts - and that didn't fix the issue. I don't want to reach that point. I don't want to be replacing the entire keyboard every 3 months. I don't to be replacing the display panel every 3 months.
[doublepost=1509967946][/doublepost]Update 32 - 6/11/2017 - Another Letter to Tim Cook
Here's is yet another letter to Tim Cook (one of my previous ones did trigger an action).
Tim
Attached is a log and audit trail of an extremely poorly handled support case.
Highlights you should be worried about - because they say a lot about how Apple is actually operating - include:
- a long case lasting weeks, involving at least 8 Apple staff at various stages
- hard evidence of overheating problems with the 2017 MBP nTB - for basic tasks like Netflix on a 4K display (normal Netflix not 4K movies), running VMs, even installing the OS
- hard evidence of physical damage as a result of overheating - damage to the display panel in clamshell mode, which Apple acknowledged when they replaced that panel
- evidence of hundreds of minutes talking to Apple staff with no progress
- evidence of falsehood told to me by Apple staff - repeatedly - some call this lying.
- 3 wasted journeys to Apple centres - despite assurances they would undertake meaningful tests (they lied, they didn't)
- a letter of apology from Apple Wimbledon - which in effect admits culpability and is evidence I can use
- an "executive liaison" person who talks over me rudely, and doesn't understand why I don't want to go through your failed process a FOURTH, wasting my time and at expense to me
- a formal complaint against an Apple Customer Support person (which I have had no update about despite asking)
- a legal request for information you hold about me (a Subject Access request, under the EU and UK Data Protection Act) .. because I'm trying to establish why Apple really aren't fixing this issue for me, because your staff clearly aren't
I've been sharing progress, or lack of, on this case widely on social media. You will see that it has turned a few people away from buying the MacBook Pro 2017 nTB - quite rightly as the thermal design and keyboard issues are widespread, and not isolated to individual cases.
Tim - I like Apple, I like the MacOS, I loved my 2015 MacBook Pro - best workhorse I ever had. It saddens me that Apple is behaving like this.
So I'm writing to you again, as nobody else in Apple seems empowered to resolve this issue. A win-win is for me to get a full refund which I want to use to buy a 2015 MacBook Pro - there's one of the returns store right now.
regards
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Sorry to hear your story project_2501 and especially sceptical comments. People trust corporations until they get screwed over. I had similar Apple Care experience with my iPhone 6S one year after getting it (battery dying prematurely, even at 70%). I have been dismissed by reps left and right who admitted on phone that diagnostics won't show the issue and I have to wait for Apple to find software solution. After one month of struggle I was going to sell it at a loss but then they announced repair program. Sold it immediately after repair.
For me, Apple Care was probably the worst service experience I ever had. Then again, I live in Poland and I might just be 3rd grade customer to them.
Going back to the topic. I do a lot more on my 2013 13" rMBP than play a few YT videos. It doesn't get hot or loud easily. iMovie can make it sweat and several VMs at once, but not YT. Even Xcode doesn't make it spin up. Doesn't matter if I use it in clamshell or not.
For me, Apple Care was probably the worst service experience I ever had. Then again, I live in Poland and I might just be 3rd grade customer to them.
Going back to the topic. I do a lot more on my 2013 13" rMBP than play a few YT videos. It doesn't get hot or loud easily. iMovie can make it sweat and several VMs at once, but not YT. Even Xcode doesn't make it spin up. Doesn't matter if I use it in clamshell or not.
Update 33 6/11/2017 - "Science is Opinion"
Spoke with the "executive liaison" person again.
[doublepost=1509979332][/doublepost]
Thanks Merode.
I used to avoid Apple because people used to say it was a very shiny company but inside it was nasty. I gambled on the 2015 MBPro, my first ever. It was fantastic. But as soon as you hit issues, like this 2017 MacBook Pro nTB .. you start to see the corporate face of Apple.
Spoke with the "executive liaison" person again.
- He is asserting that any video evidence is only opinion.
- He is asserting that my records of Apple staff lying to me are only opinion. Evidence includes a letter of apology from Apple Wimbledon.
- He was unable to reassure me that Apple staff would even try to recreate the scenario. Before they did reassure me and that turned out to be a lie. I guess in some ways that might be seen as an improvement - but not for the customer. So why would I go again .. a fourth time?
- This is actually dangerous. Apple can wilfully ignore and avoid any genuine issues - and declare there are no issues.
[doublepost=1509979332][/doublepost]
Thanks Merode.
I used to avoid Apple because people used to say it was a very shiny company but inside it was nasty. I gambled on the 2015 MBPro, my first ever. It was fantastic. But as soon as you hit issues, like this 2017 MacBook Pro nTB .. you start to see the corporate face of Apple.
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Update 34 - 6/11/2017
- More video evidence of the heat and fan issue. This time there is no streaming video, only Affinity Photo (from the official Apple App Store). There is no intensive image processing happening. Yet the fan is at maximum, and heat is rising.
- video 1
- video 2
- To be clear, is is from today, after Apple replaced most parts of the laptop (motherboard, keyboard, display panel, battery, heatsink, thermal paste).
- This again confirms the issue is a design fault, not a faulty part.
Maybe it’s a combination of using the Mac in a case, clamshell mode, and the 4K display. Just a thought.
It is just so strange, because if it was without a doubt a design flaw all 2016/17 nTB MBP models should exhibit such behavior, yet the fan in my 2016 almost never turns on. I don’t have a 4K display to test that, though.
It is just so strange, because if it was without a doubt a design flaw all 2016/17 nTB MBP models should exhibit such behavior, yet the fan in my 2016 almost never turns on. I don’t have a 4K display to test that, though.
I was going to ask this. Every video I've seen of it running hot here, it seems to be located on the keyboard shelf of a desk; I'm presuming this shelf is closed when in use?
Have you tried leaving the computer out of a case and on top of the desk, does it still get warm? It looks like you're not giving it the best chance of life here by stacking the cards against it, it needs adequate cooling. Putting it in a confined space with little airflow is going to make the computer run warmer to begin with.
As far as I know, clamshell will reduce the cooling capacity, putting it into a confined area will further reduce the cooling, and putting it in a case will further the cooling again. Couple this with powering a 4K display and graphically intensive stuff (The things you are running would normally trigger a dGPU), so it's trying to push everything through the iGPU as well as run the CPU for the software.
Just try it on top of the desk, no case, in clamshell and open, and record the temperature difference.
I'm sorry project_2501, but now since your case has gained attention and dragged on for far too long with quite a number of audience, the chance of you going to get a refund is very slim (if any at all). If Apple had decided to give in, it would have openly implied that they acknowledge a design flaw which you has accused it of throughout this thread. Both you and me know such scenario would never happen. It will cost Apple way more than just losing you and maybe some other peeps as customers.
It sucks, but you're fighting a losing battle here.
It sucks, but you're fighting a losing battle here.
Re those 2 last videos, seems like something is eating that CPU and it's constantly in Turbo Boost (?), so without activity monitor open, it's hard to say what the issue is.
As for external monitors, I read that even the 2015 15 with a dGPU gets warm just with a 1080p monitor attached (unlike 13'). You are using 4k with this model... Still, I think the issue here is mainly not the 4k monitor, but something to do with CPU load. Get it out of the case if there's one. Also as a test, you could try disabling Turbo Boost with some app.
What's the temps without Affinity photo, just idle with 4k monitor? If this program has a glitch that eats 100% of your CPU, then with other things considered, everyone would be getting this problem with ntb model.
Edit: the screen with the BBC iPlayer makes no sense. It shows fans at full throttle while the CPU and GPU temps are at 74? It shouldn't be running at full speed. Maybe some other software is setting the fan speed? I'm pretty sure the laptop wasn't designed to go to 7200 rpm at such temps.
As for external monitors, I read that even the 2015 15 with a dGPU gets warm just with a 1080p monitor attached (unlike 13'). You are using 4k with this model... Still, I think the issue here is mainly not the 4k monitor, but something to do with CPU load. Get it out of the case if there's one. Also as a test, you could try disabling Turbo Boost with some app.
What's the temps without Affinity photo, just idle with 4k monitor? If this program has a glitch that eats 100% of your CPU, then with other things considered, everyone would be getting this problem with ntb model.
Edit: the screen with the BBC iPlayer makes no sense. It shows fans at full throttle while the CPU and GPU temps are at 74? It shouldn't be running at full speed. Maybe some other software is setting the fan speed? I'm pretty sure the laptop wasn't designed to go to 7200 rpm at such temps.
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We tried this early on in this story. It didn't help. Apple technical staff looked at the case and confirmed this specific one doesn't add to the problem.
But thanks anyway for suggesting. Appreciate it.
[doublepost=1510061087][/doublepost]
The only thing to fear .. is fear itself. Said an American president once [link].
I'm not afraid of Apple.
Apple should be afraid of its customers if they're trying to flog badly designed laptops and cover the story up.
Transparency always wins. Eventually. [link]
[doublepost=1510061188][/doublepost]
clamshell is a supported mode of operation.
that desk configuration was given the ok by Apple Genius staff.
more to the point - the MBP13 2015, Thinkpad, Chromebook .. none of them have this problem when sitting there in that same place with the same display.
thanks for the suggestion, sadly it happens without the 4k display too sometimes, but not as often, in my experience
I just thought I would say, don't give up. I think you've got a defective machine and it is less to do with the design, or the apps. It is a hardware failure of some sort.
Why do I say this? One of the pictures you posted show the web browser + Macs Fan Control only, the temperature readings that are shown do not warrant a fan speed > 7000rpm.
on a 2017 nTB I had a go at playing a 4k sample video on youtube to see if I could get my temps to match yours. Using safari I couldn't, so I opened the video in chrome as well, although I saw a noticeable increase in CPU usage, the temps didn't increase that much. I've included a screenshot showing my temps and fan speed (0rpm)
At the moment I took the screenshot, I was running the following apps:
safari - two windows, 17 tabs total
chrome - the one tab
Mail - with an inbox of > 24,000 emails (none unread)
Terminal - 7 windows, lots of vim processes
Firefox - with the firehbbtv extension (this uses some CPU)
Process Monitor
iMessenger
Coconut Battery
Line
Mac's Fan Control
and whatever else is running in the background by the system.
I wish you well, and I hope you get the replacement (or refund) you deserve. Feel free to use any of the above as part of your case against Apple.
Why do I say this? One of the pictures you posted show the web browser + Macs Fan Control only, the temperature readings that are shown do not warrant a fan speed > 7000rpm.
on a 2017 nTB I had a go at playing a 4k sample video on youtube to see if I could get my temps to match yours. Using safari I couldn't, so I opened the video in chrome as well, although I saw a noticeable increase in CPU usage, the temps didn't increase that much. I've included a screenshot showing my temps and fan speed (0rpm)
At the moment I took the screenshot, I was running the following apps:
safari - two windows, 17 tabs total
chrome - the one tab
Mail - with an inbox of > 24,000 emails (none unread)
Terminal - 7 windows, lots of vim processes
Firefox - with the firehbbtv extension (this uses some CPU)
Process Monitor
iMessenger
Coconut Battery
Line
Mac's Fan Control
and whatever else is running in the background by the system.
I wish you well, and I hope you get the replacement (or refund) you deserve. Feel free to use any of the above as part of your case against Apple.