Anyone else abandoning ship?

[vaugha]

I'm not jumping ship yet. I find macos boringly reliable and stable compared to w10, so I use both os'. W10 also offers features that macos doesn't and vice versa. Hardware issues w/ 2016+ mbps are disappointin' and I am sure apple is workin' on them. I haven't given up on them but at the same time I'm more cautious b/c it's a lot more expensive so I literally think about it for months before purchasing any apple products.

 

[goslowjoe]

So you're getting more people to buy Apple laptops, yet convinced them that the a nearly four year old computer is better then what apple has in 2019?

No, I am not getting others on board. What they buy is their choice. Rather, I invest in devices that work and get the job done. For me the 2015 MacBook Pro works just fine.

 

[windowstomac]

For me the 2015 MacBook Pro works just fine.

So did mine...with hindsight I wish I'd not sold it but I had a 15" and it was quite a lump to travel with - dated looks too.

After just one day with the surface there's quite a learning curve going back to Windows but I'm liking it so far and enjoying how configurable it is.

 

[doitdada]

I've not posted here for years. Looking at my account I see that I joined eight years ago.

So I've had eight wonderful years of using Macs and telling anyone who'd listen how great they were. I converted several people. I switched when I moved into more creative web and content work from IT consultancy, found a workflow that worked for me, and never imagined going back.

Well today's the day it all came to an end. I've just ordered a Surface to collect this afternoon.

After spending around £2500 on a loaded 2018 MBP, I've had the keyboard issues within three months, despite being really careful about food and dust. The maddening thing is that I have little periods of it working OK, and I don't actually mind the general feel of the keyboard, but when it flares up its impact on writing workflow is immense.

Abandoning ship makes me sad, because I love working with these machines. Finding replacements for my apps and designing a new workflow isn't something I particularly relish, though I will obviously try to find some fun in it!

My reason for abandoning ship isn't specifically about a flaky keyboard, however. It's Apple's staggering arrogance around helping the people who have these problems. My MBP is literally the tool of my trade - it's a "pro" machine at very much a "pro" price tag.

And yet:

- Apple Support won't give me any certainty of a lead time for fixing until I take a day off work to visit a service centre AT MY EXPENSE.

- Apple offer no kind of on site support even if I were willing to pay.

- Apple won't guarantee a loan machine until I visit the service centre.

- Apple say I don't need to wipe my data but you can detect the shoulder-shrugging when I suggest there are likely implications around my client's data and data protection / GDPR.

- Apple won't even offer a send-in service in my area (UK). This would be far more convenient as I have an old 2012 MBP I can restore my backup to. At least then I could continue to work and not waste any more billable time.

- I will be expected to take another day off to collect the machine when it is repaired / swapped.

- Apple's team display zero empathy around the realities of how much of a time drain this is, even though these keyboard issues are incredibly common and well-publicised.

So I find myself in a position of wondering how I can trust Apple anymore. That's the sad reality.

Despite care I've had issues with my left shift (now OK), my E key (ongoing and very common judging by forums), the spacebar (intermittent), and this morning alone I've encountered a sticky enter key and a strange crunch from the +/=. For this reason I'm pretty much certain this won't be the last time I have to waste all this time if I continue to use a MBP from this generation, and hearing reports from people who are on their fifth replacement doesn't help.

Days when I can't work because I'm travelling to and from an Apple store are days when I bleed money and I simply can't afford it.

I'm gutted to be honest.

Just in case anyone points out that I may have reliability issues with another brand, I accept that is a fair point. But before looking at a surface I thought about this and looked at their warranty procedure. There are some important differences:

1. Microsoft do offer a send in service and publicly commit to a lead time.

2. They are transparent about the cost of out-of-warranty repairs.

3. There isn't a well-documented issue with their hardware that's resulted in sketchy excuses and class-action lawsuits.

There is definitely some emotional brand attachment here but what's making it easier to walk away is Apple's arrogance.

I can second all of your experiences. You have to be a lawyer to get proper service now or wait for a class action lawsuit. Dell have a next day exchange program on Pro products. You simply get a new product if the old fails. No questions asked except a picture of serial number and ID.

The Mac is also falling behind in support outside of the Apple, Adobe and Microsoft ecosystem. Lots of hardware is unsupported. New OS versions break a lot of software and compatibility. None of the so-called gaming innovations revealed at the keynotes seem to make an impact in the real world. The touch bar is still only on the MacBook Pro, no other manufacturer is adding it to their hardware.

 

[Jaekae]

As I type this on my company issued 2017 MBP 15... I backspace to fix the double strikes. I bang harder on the keyboard to get some to type. I constantly have to deal with dongle hell just to do my daily job functions. I don't have the physical keys I need to touch type my way through my job.

I am a HUGE Apple fan. I have been an all in guy for a decade plus. But this is just getting ridiculous. I'm serious considering bouncing off to Linux because M$ is just not an option in my mind. I'm not going back to virus hell. I'm just wondering if I'm alone? Is this part of the plan? Is Apple pushing us to iPad Pros? It just feels like I got a "MacBook Plus" not a "Pro" machine. By that I mean it seems like somebody let a marketing person convince them that they could up sell people out of MacBook with bells and whistles and didn't bother giving a Pro line machine features and function I needed.

Again, I'm not some Windows or Android zealot here to start a flame war. Just a hardcore Apple guy wondering what Apple is thinking these days and if they just aren't that "into" the laptop market anymore?

Maby get a mac mini and choose your own keyboard and monitor, have one monitor at work and one at home so its easy to go between

 

[dollystereo]

macbook pro 15 vs dell xps 15 --- Both of them at $2400

View attachment 816811

I completely understand that each of us have our own preferences but keeping that aside, which one do you think would be better value for money?

https://www.windowscentral.com/dell-xps-15-9570-vs-macbook-pro-which-should-you-buy

Something you should consider is extending the warranty in the dell machine, their customer support is very solid. I would get the xps, I mostly use linux right now anyway.

 

[maflynn]

No, I am not getting others on board

You literally said the exact opposite which is why I responded.

Your post:

I am getting more passengers on board

 

[danielvanberkel]

I was quite done with my MBP after having had keyboard issues and a damaged screen coating (because of the keys pressing the screen) after just 6 months. So I tried the 2019 XPS 13. The design is frankly beautiful, the bezels are nice and tiny, the laptop feels very sturdy, and the metal looks high-quality, much like the MacBooks. However, Dell’s sloppiness and a number of issues have led me to return the XPS, and I’m going back to my MacBook which is now being repaired for the issues I mentioned above. I guess I’ll hold on to my MBP2018 until a MBP redesign arrives, and then switch to that (if it is at least any better)

For those wondering what the issues on the Dell were:
- sloppy advertising on dell’s website; it says that the screen is glass/glossy, but the FHD version, which I ordered, is instead matte. The rep on the phone refused to believe me for 20 minutes, after which he acknowledged the information on the site was false and was not updated from last years model
- constant driver issues: the headphone jack would stop working, or the sound would stop working from the speakers altogether
- squeeky sound when opening the laptop
- rattling return key
- small wires could be seen exposed at the side of the hinge
- bright screen flickers/flashes
- no normal sleep mode on this thing, closing the lid does not send it to sleep but it instead wakes itself up randomly sometimes

Suffice to say that running away from the MBP keyboard has led me to even more issues.

 

[vaugha]

I was quite done with my MBP after having had keyboard issues and a damaged screen coating (because of the keys pressing the screen) after just 6 months. So I tried the 2019 XPS 13. The design is frankly beautiful, the bezels are nice and tiny, the laptop feels very sturdy, and the metal looks high-quality, much like the MacBooks. However, Dell’s sloppiness and a number of issues have led me to return the XPS, and I’m going back to my MacBook which is now being repaired for the issues I mentioned above. I guess I’ll hold on to my MBP2018 until a MBP redesign arrives, and then switch to that (if it is at least any better)

For those wondering what the issues on the Dell were:
- sloppy advertising on dell’s website; it says that the screen is glass/glossy, but the FHD version, which I ordered, is instead matte. The rep on the phone refused to believe me for 20 minutes, after which he acknowledged the information on the site was false and was not updated from last years model
- constant driver issues: the headphone jack would stop working, or the sound would stop working from the speakers altogether
- squeeky sound when opening the laptop
- rattling return key
- small wires could be seen exposed at the side of the hinge
- bright screen flickers/flashes
- no normal sleep mode on this thing, closing the lid does not send it to sleep but it instead wakes itself up randomly sometimes

Suffice to say that running away from the MBP keyboard has led me to even more issues.

As much as I'd hate to say this but I know people who's had at least equal amount of issues w/ their dell xps' and lenovo thinkpads. I have a close friend who's issued a thinkpad from work and he's overall ok w/ it w/ the exception of the battery life. I asked him how is it and he said he gets around 3 hr on battery doing general office tasks (emails, spreadsheets, youtube) and he's forced to bring the charger w/ him wherever he goes. He's in constant fear of running out of battery and he has to keep a close eye on it otherwise it will die on him. I asked him how old the laptop is and he replied it's only 6 months. I told him at least he doesn't have to worry about keyboard failures like the apple 2016+ mbps.

Macs are decent products imo and if keyboard failures and flex display cable issues are making you think twice, then I'd say get a mac mini or wait for this year's mac pro if you're willing to sacrifice portability. At least w/ a mac mini, you don't have to worry about keyboard failures, flex display cable, and crackling speaker issues. After having used windows for over 20 years and macos for around 7 years, I choose macos any time of the day. I use w10 b/c it can game. No single os is perfect. By having dual os' in my arsenal, I can pick and choose the best of both worlds.

 

[mdbradigan]

I will say, one thing I really like about the TB3 MacBook Pros is the ease of docking. It is a single plug. Perfect.
.

This is the thing I find most disappointing. My company bought me a Dell M4800 a couple years ago - I've updated the Ram & Battery twice - has a docking station; is plug and play, 100% of the time, to my external monitors, speakers, storage, etc. Recently bought myself a 13" TBMBP, running two TB3 cables to an eGPU with same two monitors and a dock with same external peripherals, and it has a T2 kernal panic at least 2 if not 3x a day. I have to disconnect it and reconnect it after reboot EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. It does not "just work". How disappointing.

My company nearing upgrade period for me to get a new laptop...am having a hard time considering the current 15" MBP.

[edit:] - also, my battery life is about 3 hours, tops. This is... pretty pathetic, honestly. I've never had a laptop with such terrible battery life. This is incredibly disappointing. (and I'm a huge apple computer fan, fwiw...)

 

[danielvanberkel]

As much as I'd hate to say this but I know people who's had at least equal amount of issues w/ their dell xps' and lenovo thinkpads. I have a close friend who's issued a thinkpad from work and he's overall ok w/ it w/ the exception of the battery life. I asked him how is it and he said he gets around 3 hr on battery doing general office tasks (emails, spreadsheets, youtube) and he's forced to bring the charger w/ him wherever he goes. He's in constant fear of running out of battery and he has to keep a close eye on it otherwise it will die on him. I asked him how old the laptop is and he replied it's only 6 months. I told him at least he doesn't have to worry about keyboard failures like the apple 2016+ mbps.

Macs are decent products imo and if keyboard failures and flex display cable issues are making you think twice, then I'd say get a mac mini or wait for this year's mac pro if you're willing to sacrifice portability. At least w/ a mac mini, you don't have to worry about keyboard failures, flex display cable, and crackling speaker issues. After having used windows for over 20 years and macos for around 7 years, I choose macos any time of the day. I use w10 b/c it can game. No single os is perfect. By having dual os' in my arsenal, I can pick and choose the best of both worlds.

I actually found the XPS to have amazing battery life, much better than the MBP 2018 actually (14 hours vs. max 6-7 hours) and the design is actually beautiful enough to make me want to keep it, but nah the other issues just scream lack of QC, and indeed, macOS is just a lot more comfortable for me. As a uni student I need my laptop, so I can’t really rely on a desktop unfortunately. Just hope that they perhaps step down from keeping the same design for 4 years, but instead call it a day and refresh the whole MBP line in 2019.

 

[Cashmonee]

This is the thing I find most disappointing. My company bought me a Dell M4800 a couple years ago - I've updated the Ram & Battery twice - has a docking station; is plug and play, 100% of the time, to my external monitors, speakers, storage, etc. Recently bought myself a 13" TBMBP, running two TB3 cables to an eGPU with same two monitors and a dock with same external peripherals, and it has a T2 kernal panic at least 2 if not 3x a day. I have to disconnect it and reconnect it after reboot EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. It does not "just work". How disappointing.

My company nearing upgrade period for me to get a new laptop...am having a hard time considering the current 15" MBP.

[edit:] - also, my battery life is about 3 hours, tops. This is... pretty pathetic, honestly. I've never had a laptop with such terrible battery life. This is incredibly disappointing. (and I'm a huge apple computer fan, fwiw...)

I would send yours in. There is a problem if you are getting that kind of battery life. Also, sounds like you have a bad interaction with your dock and/or eGPU. I am using a Hengedocks Stone, and for the most part it works well. There are a few times it does not work, but I attribute that to the wonkiness of USB-C more than anything else.

 

[tomscott1988]

I was quite done with my MBP after having had keyboard issues and a damaged screen coating (because of the keys pressing the screen)

This isnt a new issue Ive had 6 laptops from apple since 2006.

2006 17" MBP
2008 Unibody Macbook 13
2013 Macbook air 11
2013 Macbook air 13
2015 Macbook

Every single one apart from the old design 17" has had key impressions left on the screen. These arent removable and leave scratch marks from the edge of each key.

Ive had apple care on all of mine and have had a screen replacement at least once on each one and I had 2 on my 11" macbook air.

Seems for me at least that its a fault of every apple laptop made in the last 10 years.

 

[maflynn]

I was quite done with my MBP after having had keyboard issues and a damaged screen coating

I was and am for similar reasons though it was more about not waiting for a failure.

So I tried the 2019 XPS 13. The design is frankly beautiful,

The new Dells do look nice, though I opted for a Lenovo.

sloppy advertising on dell’s website; it says that the screen is glass/glossy, but the FHD version, which I ordered, is instead matte. The rep on the phone refused to believe me for 20 minutes, after which he acknowledged the information on the site was false and was not updated from last years model
- constant driver issues: the headphone jack would stop working, or the sound would stop working from the speakers altogether
- squeeky sound when opening the laptop
- rattling return key
- small wires could be seen exposed at the side of the hinge
- bright screen flickers/flashes
- no normal sleep mode on this thing, closing the lid does not send it to sleep but it instead wakes itself up randomly sometimes

Regardless of the website stuff, that's a bummer regarding the issues with the Dell, you keep giving Apple a chance, why did you not consider that you got a defective unit for the dell?

Sleep for windows is wonky, I've had hit or miss luck with that, even back in the windows 95 days, but other then that issue, I wouldn't put up with what you experienced with the other problems.

 

[sg9]

Even if Apple covers every issue under extended warranty, buying and owning a macbook just isn't fun anymore.

 

[happyhippo1337]

Posted a lengthy comment in the "#macbookfear" thread about my odyssee with Macbooks and Notebooks in the last few years. Made the same mistake again on Thursday and bought a brand new 2018 MBPT 15''.

• coilwhine
• crackling buzzing speakers
• A button not recognized out of the box (!) a few times
• had to reset NV/PRAM twice already because backlight and Touchbar wouldnt work. Machine booted, saw a very dim Apple logo, but simply no backlight.

Had the coil whine from my other MPBT 2018 that I sold in November, as well as the booting issues and. Now I get crackling speakers on top for free. Isn't that freakin wonderful?

Thought about going Mac Mini, but I am sick and tired of this ****. Windows 10 is stable as a rock and way more flexible then Mac OS. Granted, some Win10 Notebooks are crappy af, but at least I got some options there.

Still loving my iPhone XS and iPad Pro, Apple TV, Apple Watch and Air Pods. All great products, seriously. But the Mac line I am done with.

 

[badsimian]

I have jumped ship after moving to Macs in 2008 but hopefully only temporarily. I sold my amazing 2013 15" MPB and got a 12" as a holding pattern earlier last year waiting for the refresh. But given all the issues, keyboards, bloody touch bar with no function keys etc I am going to wait it out a few years until new design tempts me back.

If there was one straw that broke the camel's back it would be the ticking timebomb of a keyboard waiting to go wrong. I always buy Applecare but I am not willing to take the chance that I have an expensive paperweight after the warranty period.

So for now I have gone with an XPS13 / 16GB / 4K / 512GB from the Dell Outlet. Win10 with WSL installed is actually pretty good. I've got Windows Hello face unlock, fingerprint reader, beautiful screen, super fast storage (although not as fast as MBP) with Samsung PM981 drive it came with. All with 4 years onsite warranty, they even gave me an additional 10% off because I asked nicely. £1200 all in inc VAT. You just can't get close to that value for money with a Mac these days. Unlike one of the previous posters I have had zero issues with the Dell too.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely know that specs are the wrong way to measure Macs, I still prefer macOS to Windows and maybe I will change my mind in a couple of months and be looking to move back but it's been 3 months so far and I just can't see it.

 

[ADGrant]

I personally think Lenovo makes the best laptops in the world. And this is coming from someone who has owned many Macbook Pro's, Powerbooks, iBooks, and the new Macbook Air. My thinkpads are better. Linux is better than Mac OS if you're a developer, period. There's no comparison. Windows 10 is better if you need your computer for work at any major company. Mac OS is better for creatives but their hardware is not as good as Lenovo's. Type on a Thinkpad and handle one and you can feel the difference. The keyboard is amazing and Thinkpads are more sturdy. You can toss them around without worry, use them outside without worry, etc etc etc.

Sorry, I don't agree that Linux is better than MacOS if you are a developer (unless perhaps you are developing C/C++ apps for Linux). The command line tools are basically all the same, the editors are basically the same. However, MacOS has additional development tools like Xcode, Visual Studio for Mac and SourceTree (excellent git client). Then there is all the ancillary stuff like email client and MS Office (useful if you need to exchange documents with Project Manager types) and has a lot more tools for creating icons and other visual assets.

At all the non-Windows specific developer conferences I have been to, many of the developers were using Mac Books (including all the Google developers).

 

[poorcody]

Sorry, I don't agree that Linux is better than MacOS if you are a developer (unless perhaps you are developing C/C++ apps for Linux). The command line tools are basically all the same, the editors are basically the same. However, MacOS has additional development tools like Xcode, Visual Studio for Mac and SourceTree (excellent git client). Then there is all the ancillary stuff like email client and MS Office (useful if you need to exchange documents with Project Manager types) and has a lot more tools for creating icons and other visual assets.

Agreed, plus it's the only platform where you can test web code against every browser and OS: Edge, IE, Safari, Chrome, Firefox, across Windows, MacOS, Linux, iOS, and Android.

MacBooks have been very hot for developers the last few years for these reasons. Problem I am seeing now is all the ML stuff favors CUDA, which means the lack of Nvidia GPUs is a big problem...

 

[ADGrant]

if it's crucial to the job you should have a second MBP for replacement, you said you are living from developing iOS apps, so the money shouldn't be a problem, you can't rely on just one machine

A Mac Mini might make more sense unless you always need to be mobile.

 

[9081094]

As I type this on my company issued 2017 MBP 15... I backspace to fix the double strikes. I bang harder on the keyboard to get some to type. I constantly have to deal with dongle hell just to do my daily job functions. I don't have the physical keys I need to touch type my way through my job.

I am a HUGE Apple fan. I have been an all in guy for a decade plus. But this is just getting ridiculous. I'm serious considering bouncing off to Linux because M$ is just not an option in my mind. I'm not going back to virus hell. I'm just wondering if I'm alone? Is this part of the plan? Is Apple pushing us to iPad Pros? It just feels like I got a "MacBook Plus" not a "Pro" machine. By that I mean it seems like somebody let a marketing person convince them that they could up sell people out of MacBook with bells and whistles and didn't bother giving a Pro line machine features and function I needed.

Again, I'm not some Windows or Android zealot here to start a flame war. Just a hardcore Apple guy wondering what Apple is thinking these days and if they just aren't that "into" the laptop market anymore?

I haven’t read all comments, only your experience. And I can totally feel your frustrations. I’ve been a Mac user since 1989 and experienced the mid 90 crises when Apple almost got bankrupt.

All I can say that Apple doesn’t care about computers anymore and it has going downhill since 2012. The whole experience is stagnant for years. Apple computers have always been more expensive than the competition, but the OS, premium hardware and software justified the higher price for me.

Not any more! The hardware is outdated while still being sold at über premium prices and the software is getting less stable with each release.

Apple computers have become an expensive nightmare and I’m slowly trying to get out of the ecotrap. My 2017 5K iMac will be the last Apple computer. I hate to say this and I’ve never thought I would tell. I don’t recommend it to my friends or family anymore. I was once a free ambassador for Apple to them. I’ve convinced most of my friends and family to go Mac. I can’t look with a straight face into the mirror if I did the same today.

Thank you Tim Cook & Co to ruin the experience of a once beloved brand.

The whole line up of Apple today doesn’t fit a ‘Pro’. It’s become an outdated afterthought reaping money at the expense of a good experience. They should sell of the computer part of the company to a company who is willing to care.

 

[ADGrant]

I don't mean to embarrass you with your complete lack of knowledge, but the Surface Laptop 2 has a i5-8250U CPU (Kaby Lake R). It's a quad core CPU with 8 threads:

https://ark.intel.com/products/124967/Intel-Core-i5-8250U-Processor-6M-Cache-up-to-3-40-GHz-

https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/surface/devices/surface-laptop-2/tech-specs

Not sure why you are talking about the Surface Book 2, I don't have one of those.

The Surface laptop 2 also unfortunately has an iFixit of 0 which is even lower than a 2018 MBP. Microsoft unfortunately seems to be coping the bad parts of Apple without giving you the advantages (iOS integration, BSD Unix based OS).

 

[Thysanoptera]

They should sell of the computer part of the company to a company who is willing to care.

I completely aggree. Like IBM, if they don’t want to be in some market segment, sell it. Take it off the books. License it and bask in revenue generated by the fees. But don’t kill it.

 

[09872738]

(...)
All I can say that Apple doesn’t care about computers anymore and it has going downhill since 2012. The whole experience is stagnant for years. Apple computers have always been more expensive than the competition, but the OS, premium hardware and software justified the higher price for me.

Not any more! The hardware is outdated while still being sold at über premium prices and the software is getting less stable with each release.

Apple computers have become an expensive nightmare and I’m slowly trying to get out of the ecotrap. My 2017 5K iMac will be the last Apple computer. I hate to say this and I’ve never thought I would tell. I don’t recommend it to my friends or family anymore. I was once a free ambassador for Apple to them. I’ve convinced most of my friends and family to go Mac. I can’t look with a straight face into the mirror if I did the same today.

Thank you Tim Cook & Co to ruin the experience of a once beloved brand.(...)

I am in the exact same boat. I assisted in purchasing a Macbook recently, but that's been a 2015 off eBay - the last Mac I could recommend (minus staingate perhaps).

Just sad.

 

[9081094]

And yet it will still outperform any Windows workstation laptop with comparable form factor. People really have very broad definition of "overheating" these days. The system runs at its nominal spec and nominal safe temperature - "OMG, ITS OVERHEATING!". The system runs 20% slower than a laptop three times the weight which operates the CPU at 2x TDP - "OMD, ITS OVERHEATING!". You get the point.

Why sell a laptop with an i7 or i9 when it can’t use the power of those processors because of overheating? It’s not only the laptops but Mac mini, iMacs and even the iMac pro are plagued by those problems.

For me it’s faulty by design. I’m editing and rendering movies on it but they’re not suited to do that well.