Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Sorry, I don't agree that Linux is better than MacOS if you are a developer (unless perhaps you are developing C/C++ apps for Linux). The command line tools are basically all the same, the editors are basically the same. However, MacOS has additional development tools like Xcode, Visual Studio for Mac and SourceTree (excellent git client). Then there is all the ancillary stuff like email client and MS Office (useful if you need to exchange documents with Project Manager types) and has a lot more tools for creating icons and other visual assets.

At all the non-Windows specific developer conferences I have been to, many of the developers were using Mac Books (including all the Google developers).

You effectively need a Mac at some point as a web or app developer since it's the only way to create iOS apps and the only way to test Mac browsers (Safari and Mac versions of the others).

If Apple allowed installing macOS on non-Apple devices, or iOS app development outside of macOS, then that need wouldn't be there. Alas, they love having full control over their platforms.
 
You effectively need a Mac at some point as a web or app developer since it's the only way to create iOS apps and the only way to test Mac browsers (Safari and Mac versions of the others).

If Apple allowed installing macOS on non-Apple devices, or iOS app development outside of macOS, then that need wouldn't be there. Alas, they love having full control over their platforms.
You mean they want all the profits. From a hardware point of view the Mac is dead for years. As long as it makes profit to Apple they’ll pretend that the Mac is very important to them. The reality seems otherwise. Sad!
 
You mean they want all the profits. From a hardware point of view the Mac is dead for years. As long as it makes profit to Apple they’ll pretend that the Mac is very important to them. The reality seems otherwise. Sad!
Indeed.

One could get the impression that the last raison d' etre of Mac computers is serving as hosts for Mac development.
As app dev hosts even the Macbook Pros make sense: overheating is hardly a problem doing app development
 
  • Like
Reactions: 9081094 and Queen6
Why sell a laptop with an i7 or i9 when it can’t use the power of those processors because of overheating?

What are you even talking about? Intel sells the i9 as a CPU that is supposed to run at 45W TDP in a demanding multi-core sustained operation while maintaining a guaranteed clock of at least 2.9Ghz. All i9 MBPs out there maintain the clocks of at least 3.2-3.3 under a scenario like that. Since when is operating above the advertised spec "overheating"? If you are instead complaining that the i9 doesn't outperform the i7 in multicore Cinebench, go talk to Intel who configured the CPUs that way.

[doublepost=1549310340][/doublepost]
You mean they want all the profits. From a hardware point of view the Mac is dead for years. As long as it makes profit to Apple they’ll pretend that the Mac is very important to them. The reality seems otherwise. Sad!

And that is why they spend $$$ on R&D on those laptops, trying to do something new, risking potential failure and their reputation. Perfect logic you got there. If they didn't care about the Mac we'd be still on the 2015 chassis — Apple would have saved themselves tons of money and trouble.
 
And that is why they spend $$$ on R&D on those laptops, trying to do something new, risking potential failure and their reputation. Perfect logic you got there. If they didn't care about the Mac we'd be still on the 2015 chassis — Apple would have saved themselves tons of money and trouble.
Are you aware that Apple spends relatively the less on R&D from all the tech companies? They’re more busy paying dividends and shareholders.
 
What are you even talking about? Intel sells the i9 as a CPU that is supposed to run at 45W TDP in a demanding multi-core sustained operation while maintaining a guaranteed clock of at least 2.9Ghz. All i9 MBPs out there maintain the clocks of at least 3.2-3.3 under a scenario like that. Since when is operating above the advertised spec "overheating"? If you are instead complaining that the i9 doesn't outperform the i7 in multicore Cinebench, go talk to Intel who configured the CPUs that way.

Intel set the Spec the rest is down to the OEM, Apple wants pretty & thin notebooks, the rest is history. Just another way to push margins for those that want the highest spec regardless of the actual performance. Apple's chassis, Apple's cooling solution, Apple's power train. The limited performance of the MBP with i9 firmly squarely sits with Apple. nobody else...

Q-6
 
You effectively need a Mac at some point as a web or app developer since it's the only way to create iOS apps and the only way to test Mac browsers (Safari and Mac versions of the others).

If Apple allowed installing macOS on non-Apple devices, or iOS app development outside of macOS, then that need wouldn't be there. Alas, they love having full control over their platforms.

The Google devs I was talking to were C++ devs (compiler, libraries etc), not Web devs. I have heard Windows is discouraged inside Google so it's either a Chrome Book, Linux or Mac.
 
Apple wants pretty & thin notebooks, the rest is history

And you are spot right on this one. Apple was always about pretty & thin notebooks. The first MBP ever released was emphasized by Jobs to be thin and light in comparison to the competition. So I can’t spot wondering why - over a decade later - people still can’t get in their heads that maximizing performance at the expence of form factor was never a goal for Apple. Want a beefy workstation? Look elsewhere. It’s just as true today as it was in 2006.
 
And you are spot right on this one. Apple was always about pretty & thin notebooks. The first MBP ever released was emphasized by Jobs to be thin and light in comparison to the competition. So I can’t spot wondering why - over a decade later - people still can’t get in their heads that maximizing performance at the expence of form factor was never a goal for Apple. Want a beefy workstation? Look elsewhere. It’s just as true today as it was in 2006.

I think for MacBooks being thin and light is good, they are supposed to be portable (though not at the expense of a decent and reliable keyboard). I don't have an issue with the USB-C ports either though an SD card would be nice. That said, I don't think the current 15" is much more portable than the 2015.

However, what I don't like (aside from the keyboard issues) is their thermally compromised desktops. Apple does not make a single Mac with a properly cooled tower case currently. The iMacs run hot and are a nightmare to open up. The Mac Mini is much more repairable and you can upgrade the RAM if you are brave but it is still much smaller than it needs to be. If you need a eGPU, the case for that will be much larger than the Mini. OTOH you can at least ensure the cooling is adequate and you can buy any card you want as long as it uses an AMD GPU.

The other thing that really annoys me is the cost of RAM and SSD upgrades. They are outrageous.
 
Apple wants pretty & thin notebooks, the rest is history.

Well, I actually think it's more about what the consumer wants, they want thin and light. Apple tapped that market early and never stopped with that direction on laptops.
 
Are you aware that Apple spends relatively the less on R&D from all the tech companies? They’re more busy paying dividends and shareholders.

Are you aware that Apple's revenue is substantially higher than other most tech companies? Not to mention that they spend approximately the same amount on R&D in a single quarter then Dell spends in a year. Now compare the amount of devices Apple sells and the amount of the devices Dell says and tell me who spends more in R&D per product...
 
  • Like
Reactions: HenryDJP
Apple wants pretty & thin notebooks, the rest is history.

Isn't this the core value proposition of laptops? Later there was a segment carved out for those who want desktop like power while mobile which is served by mobile workstations or gaming machines, but laptops have never been equal to desktops in terms of power.

You were always making sacrifices to get the portability that laptops afforded.

We can debate how light is too light or how thin is too thin, but that varies heavily by person. I was OK carrying around my T530 which was about 8lbs with the high capacity battery pack installed. My wife wouldn't go anywhere near it.
 
Intel set the Spec the rest is down to the OEM

This is not entirely true, Queen, since Intel does lock the upper performance limit in turns of maximal achievable clock. For instance, you can theoretically run the Skylake 6920HQ more like a desktop CPU and design the system around 60W TDP, but you won't see that much of a performance increase, since the maximal boost (all cores operating) is locked at 3.4Ghz — 500Mhz above the base.

With Coffee Lake, they threw that system out of the window completely, and we are seeing full core boosts of almost 1Ghz. Its as if CPU models and clocks mean absolutely nothing anymore. So yes, you can put a Coffee Lake into a desktop cooling solution and expect it to perform as a desktop CPU, since the boost limits are through the roof now. And the i9, for all intends and purposes, is a CPU without a limiter.

So not only these processors behave very differently from their predecessors, but Intel still sells them as 45W CPUs. For me, this entire situation is very weird: people who buy a 45W CPU, which runs as its 45W CPU spec suggest, but then they complain that the OEM doesn't run it as a 60W CPU.
 
I thought this thread was about leaving Apple because of things they haven't been known for.
 
Are you aware that Apple's revenue is substantially higher than other most tech companies? Not to mention that they spend approximately the same amount on R&D in a single quarter then Dell spends in a year. Now compare the amount of devices Apple sells and the amount of the devices Dell says and tell me who spends more in R&D per product...
Now tell me who’s bringing better computers to market and upgrades their computers yearly to stay relevant and competitive?
 
Now tell me who’s bringing better computers to market and upgrades their computers yearly to stay relevant and competitive?

I agree in that the Mac lineup leaves something to be desired:

- Macbook Pros with unreliable keyboards. Thermals leave headroom. Battery life too. SSDs & RAM soldered, perversely inflated SSD/RAM prices

- Mac Mini ridiculously overpriced as well, also way too high prices for upgrades

- iMac: not exactly up to date.

- Mac Pro: Mac who?

- Macbook Air: Again, keyboard with questionable reliability. Screen too dim. Pricing - you guessed it - outrageous

- Macbook: Ok, albeit update overdue. Pricing...

T2 issues, keyboard reliability issues. Prices went from premium to just nono. Apple denies its customers nVidia drivers (which is why my MBP 2013 still is on HS. Chances are I'll be stuck with HS forever).

Sorry, but what I see is unworthy of the former Apple. This is NOT professional behaviour. This is NOT the Apple I once liked for its focus on the right things.
For example, pretty much each single feature I like in macOS (and that keeps me from switching right away) was introduced with Tiger or even earlier.

No idea what exactly Apple spends its R & D budget on, but my impression is: not on the things I'd like to see. They spend money on (useless) gadgets. Animoji nonsense. Instead of: reliable operation. DRIVERS!! They bother people with a ridiculous feud with nVidia, taking customers hostage.
They brag with their standing on moral high ground, yet do things like described.
 
Last edited:
Again, I'm not some Windows or Android zealot here to start a flame war. Just a hardcore Apple guy wondering what Apple is thinking these days and if they just aren't that "into" the laptop market anymore?

I temporarily abandoned ship for a few different machines: A Dell XPS 15 (9570), a Surface Book 2, a Lenovo Thinkpad X1 Carbon (6th gen) and a Dell XPS 13 9370.

I'm back on my 15" MacBook Pro full-time now, because I discovered that there are worse things than a flat, non-responsive keyboard:

Dell XPS 15: Random Dell firmware updates reducing backlight levels from 20 to 5, buggy Dell colour management software w/a memory leak that would consume 16 gigs of RAM in minutes upon boot, poor build quality that resulted in the trackpad dying within a year.

13" Surface Book 2: Flakey drivers that would cause the tablet portion to fail to detach or reattach at times. Random "USB Device not recognized" errors when the tablet did finally attach to the keyboard. Slow performance despite specs and cost of machine. Blue Screens of Death on boot thanks to a recent Microsoft Windows update (more on this below).

Lenovo Thinkpad X1 Carbon: Build quality issues - the lid on my laptop was literally warped and would not close fully. Poor battery life. Overly red-biased display. Overheating when thunderbolt port was used.

Dell XPS 13 9370: Keyboard was only slightly better than MacBook Pro's, but trackpad was substantially worse (but, the 9370 was had for a good price on-sale... so of the group, this one wasn't so bad)

And then there was the general fun of running Windows. I'm a Unix admin, so I was impressed by the Windows Subsystem for Linux - at first... until it suddenly stopped working for no obvious reason and had to be removed/reinstalled. My overall favourite though was when my Surface Book 2 started blue screening on boot. I spent a weekend trying to diagnose it, and after fresh installs of Windows I came to the conclusion that it was hardware. Then I discovered this:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasone...rs-are-testing-unstable-updates/#1b8dcde54f6f

Microsoft has changed the Windows 10 update behaviour so that clicking on "Get updates" signals Windows Update that you're an "advanced user", and you can receive "preview" updates that haven't been fully tested yet. This was the cause of my Blue Screen of Death issues. Thanks MS!

Linux was an option of course - but it still doesn't handle HiDPI displays well without a lot of jumping-through-hoops... and in some cases (like the Thinkpad X1C6), there were additional issues (like not properly supporting the new sleep states in that device) that made it less-than-attractive to use daily.

So in the end, I figured that I'd put up with the MacBook Pro's keyboard as in most other respects it's still ahead of the competition (for my use case).
 
Last edited:
So not only these processors behave very differently from their predecessors, but Intel still sells them as 45W CPUs. For me, this entire situation is very weird: people who buy a 45W CPU, which runs as its 45W CPU spec suggest, but then they complain that the OEM doesn't run it as a 60W CPU.

And that’s why people complain. In the past, it was not a problem, same CPU, same clocks, performance within statistical error to Windows laptops. If equipped with GPU it was a decent one. Performance wise MacBook was the same, or close to, any other Windows laptop, but leaner, nicer, thinner, lighter, quieter.

Now I can go to bestbuy and get a laptop off the shelf that’s within 5% weight and size of MBP but is 20% faster on CPU, 150% faster on GPU, while being cooler and less noisy, with cooling system twice as capable, also still retaining all ‘legacy’ ports and fully upgradable on the inside. You couldn’t do it in 2007.
 
Now I can go to bestbuy and get a laptop off the shelf that’s within 5% weight and size of MBP but is 20% faster on CPU, 150% faster on GPU, while being cooler and less noisy, with cooling system twice as capable, also still retaining all ‘legacy’ ports and fully upgradable on the inside. You couldn’t do it in 2007.

What laptop would that be? Sure, there are laptops of comparable size that fit a 1060 or even 1070 inside, at the expense of thermals and battery. None of them offers 20% better CPU though. For that, you need to look at larger gaming laptops.
 
  • Like
Reactions: HenryDJP and mkelly
I temporarily abandoned ship for a few different machines: A Dell XPS 15 (9570), a Surface Book 2, a Lenovo Thinkpad X1 Carbon (6th gen) and a Dell XPS 13 9370.

I'm back on my 15" MacBook Pro full-time now, because I discovered that there are worse things than a flat, non-responsive keyboard:

Dell XPS 15: Random Dell firmware updates reducing backlight levels from 20 to 5, buggy Dell colour management software w/a memory leak that would consume 16 gigs of RAM in minutes upon boot, poor build quality that resulted in the trackpad dying within a year.

13" Surface Book 2: Flakey drivers that would cause the tablet portion to fail to detach or reattach at times. Random "USB Device not recognized" errors when the tablet did finally attach to the keyboard. Slow performance despite specs and costs of machine. Blue Screens of Death on boot thanks to a recent Microsoft Windows update (more on this below).

Lenovo Thinkpad X1 Carbon: Build quality issues - the lid on my laptop was literally warped and would not close fully. Poor battery life. Overly red-biased display. Overheating when thunderbolt port was used.

Dell XPS 13 9370: Keyboard was only slightly better than MacBook Pro's, but trackpad was substantially worse.

And then there was the general fun of running Windows. I'm a Unix admin, so I was impressed by the Windows Subsystem for Linux - at first... until it suddenly stopped working for no obvious reason and had to be removed/reinstalled. My overall favourite though was when my Surface Book 2 started blue screening on boot. I spent a weekend trying to diagnose it, and after fresh installs of Windows I came to the conclusion that it was hardware. Then I discovered this:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasone...rs-are-testing-unstable-updates/#1b8dcde54f6f

Microsoft has changed the Windows 10 update behaviour so that clicking on "Get updates" signals Windows Update that you're an "advanced user", and you can receive "preview" updates that haven't been fully tested yet. This was the cause of my Blue Screen of Death issues. Thanks MS!

Linux was an option of course - but it still doesn't handle HiDPI displays well without a lot of jumping-through-hoops... and in some cases (like the Thinkpad X1C6), there were additional issues (like not properly supporting the new sleep states in that device) that made it less-than-attractive to use daily.

So in the end, I figured that I'd put up with the MacBook Pro's keyboard as in most other respects it's still ahead of the competition (for my use case).
Generalising much?

So actually all those computers had less problems than the MacBooks and where way cheaper? /S

Pot and kettle anyone? Or is it the blame game? Or just simple old fashioned biased polarizing bashing?
 
No idea what exactly Apple spends its R & D budget on, but my impression is: not on the things I'd like to see.

This very well might be so. Then again, you do not define the standard of computing. Apple was never about pleasing everybody, they have a fairly focused vision of how an ideal laptop should be and they have been following this vision very consistently over Thea years.
[doublepost=1549317311][/doublepost]
So actually all those computers had less problems than the MacBooks and where way cheaper?

I wouldn't say that a Surface Book 2 is way cheaper... A Dell XPS is though. From the strict value for money standpoint, Dell is a winner. The MacBook Pro does use more expensive components inside and it's battery life is better, but its not like those differences are so large in practice to matter to an average user.
 
  • Like
Reactions: HenryDJP and mkelly
This very well might be so. Then again, you do not define the standard of computing. Apple was never about pleasing everybody, they have a fairly focused vision of how an ideal laptop should be and they have been following this vision very consistently over Thea years.
[doublepost=1549317311][/doublepost]

I wouldn't say that a Surface Book 2 is way cheaper... A Dell XPS is though. From the strict value for money standpoint, Dell is a winner. The MacBook Pro does use more expensive components inside and it's battery life is better, but its not like those differences are so large in practice to matter to an average user.
Did you see the /s after my remark?
 
A Dell XPS is though. From the strict value for money standpoint, Dell is a winner. The MacBook Pro does use more expensive components inside and it's battery life is better, but its not like those differences are so large in practice to matter to an average user.
What exactly are those more expensive components the Mac is using? I agree with you on one thing though... Apple is targeting the average user (certainly not the pro) with fat pockets.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.