Anyone else abandoning ship?

[c0ppo]

Those are mostly software issues.

CPU instructions aren't software issue at all. They are hardware related. And no, A chips still aren't even near enough to any x86 CPU because of that.

Once the iPad runs macOS and you can connect a hub to the port, you are good to go on most things.
I agree that the iPad is not there yet, but it will be in the not-so-distant future.

Well, if that happens - joy to the world.
But in reality, iOS is a toyOS basically. And so is iPad. Just a toy, not a PRO device at all. Not even near.

Could that change in the future? Of course it could.
But for now, when anyone mentions iPad as a PRO device, well, forgive me for laughing.

 

[turbineseaplane]

But for now, when anyone mentions iPad as a PRO device, well, forgive me for laughing.

I generally agree with where you're coming from, but you might want to clarify what you personally mean by "Pro".

I guarantee you there are "Professionals" who only use iPads, it's just dependent upon what their job entails (what industry/position/their work needs, etc).

 

[09872738]

CPU instructions aren't software issue at all. They are hardware related. And no, A chips still aren't even near enough to any x86 CPU because of that.

That's a bold statement. I am pretty certain top of the line A chips as in current gen iPad Pros can compete with Intel m chips as installed in 12 inch Macbooks. To say the least.

 

[c0ppo]

I generally agree with where you're coming from, but you might want to clarify what you personally mean by "Pro".

Of course, there is a exception to every rule.
But in my mind, developers, 3d graphic designers, video editors, CAD, novelists, writers, etc.

Anyone who makes money out of their device is a pro. Even instagram 'influencers' would fall into that category.

I guarantee you there are "Professionals" who only use iPads, it's just dependent upon what their job entails (what industry/position/their work needs, etc).

Of course that there are. But as I named 'my pros', could you please name pros that could use iPad as a only device, and that they use it in large numbers?

Only one comes to mind - artists. And even those probably do additional tuning on macOS/windows side.
[doublepost=1551048001][/doublepost]

That's a bold statement. I am pretty certain top of the line A chips as in current gen iPad Pros can compete with Intel m chips as installed in 12 inch Macbooks. To say the least.

Why is my statement bold? I consider your statement to be really bold

 

[turbineseaplane]

But as I named 'my pros', could you please name pros that could use iPad as a only device, and that they use it in large numbers?

You named some - Careers with writing being the primary/only thing are usually the first to go iPad only.
I also personally know several executives and hedge fund guys (and 1 VC) who are all iPad only.

Again, I generally agree with you here - just wanted to clarify some of the framing.
I'm not looking to argue about it or anything - Cheers

 

[09872738]

Why is my statement bold? I consider your statement to be really bold

Well... the numbers (e.g. from here: https://www.tomsguide.com/us/new-ipad-pro-benchmarks,news-28453.html ) are pretty convincing. Note these are not only synthetic benchmarks but also include real world app tests.

Bottom line, quote "The new iPad Pro's sheer speed is undeniable. In fact, if I were Apple, I would be finding ways to bring this chip over to the Mac. But keep in mind that performance is just one consideration (...)". QED.

In mentioned tests, the iPad vastly outperforms even i7s (which is, by the way, just incredible. So incredible in fact some deny to believe in the validity of the tests), so the assumption that overall the A chip beats Intels m seems overly fair rather than bold

 

[c0ppo]

You named some - Careers with writing being the primary/only thing are usually the first to go iPad only.

Well, writing on a touchscreen is a major no-no for 99,99% of people. Even external keyboard won't help there.

I also personally know several executives and hedge fund guys (and 1 VC) who are all iPad only.

I know few as well. But opening up PDFs and reading some forms isn't really a heavy task. Those could be done on any smartphone as well, it's just a smaller screen

Again, I generally agree with you here - just wanted to clarify some of the framing.
I'm not looking to argue about it or anything - Cheers

I don't really like to argue at all. I like to present my opinion, and read others opinion. Most of the times I learn a lot of stuff doing just that. So I wouldn't even consider our 'argument' as arguing, just exchanging opinions

But my point is, all of the things you mentioned pros do with ipads, those can be done on macs/pc, or even plain smartphones. But any of the things I mentioned, well, for those you really do need a dedicated an powerful pc/mac.

PC/Mac will become like a truck in 10-20 years. That's for sure. So only those who need it will use it. Everything else will be done by tablets/smartphones. If not even sooner.

But for heavy stuff, iPad will always be just an iPad. A toy compared to a real power hungry device like pc/mac. Unless Apple decides to change all of that. But for doing that, iOS needs to move on from being a dumbed down OS.

 

[turbineseaplane]

But any of the things I mentioned, well, for those you really do need a dedicated an powerful pc/mac.

So Pro for you focuses more on the horsepower oriented/complex Pro tasks. I can see that angle for sure.

Pro is such a loaded term - I sort of wish Apple wasn't even using it anymore, as it doesn't mean to them what it necessarily means in real life.

For Apple it just seems to mean "more stuff - more money - just more"
[doublepost=1551048650][/doublepost]

Well, writing on a touchscreen is a major no-no for 99,99% of people. Even external keyboard won't help there.

I should have been clear that I don't know any people using "only iPad's" that don't also use them with keyboard cases.

I have to say, I disagree about the external keyboard not helping. These people swear by the keyboard case thing that Apple makes - They love it - the typing feel/speed - they love it.

 

[c0ppo]

Well... the numbers (e.g. from here: https://www.tomsguide.com/us/new-ipad-pro-benchmarks,news-28453.html ) are pretty convincing. Note these are not only synthetic benchmarks but also real world apps.

As you already mentioned - synthetic benchmarks.

And synthetic benchmarks don't include instructions built into any CPU. Just google what Intel/AMD have as far as instructions go, and what A chips have. Not even comparable.

That's why no one does any 6h long video renders on A chips, but everyone does it on x86.

In mentioned tests, the iPad vastly outperforms i7s, so the assumption that overall the A chip beats Intels m seems overly fair rather than bold

Well, no one is denying short burst power of A chips. Actually, I think Apple has outdone themselves in that department. Only true Apple innovation in last 10 years or so IMHO.

 

[09872738]

Well, no one is denying short burst power of A chips. Actually, I think Apple has outdone themselves in that department. Only true Apple innovation in last 10 years or so IMHO.

Burst? The video transcode test ran for 7:47 (vs 25:53 on the Macbook Pro or 31:03 in the i7 XPS). I wouldn't call that burst at all. Quite the opposite, given data suggest that if anything the other devices couldn't sustain its speed while the iPad could.
[doublepost=1551049088][/doublepost]

As you already mentioned - synthetic benchmarks.

Nope. One synthetic benchmark vs 2 real world apps. Your argument backfired!

Besides, the numbers truly are stunning. Not only was the the iPad faster in each and every single test, it was faster by significant margins; in the video test almost 300 %. And we are talking i7. Imagine what outcome the tests would have had if they had tested against m3 Macbooks...

Now, don't get me wrong: Running macOS rather than iOS on the A chip may or may not give different results; after all we don't know really.
On the other hand, the tests discussed are convincing enough to not rule out the A chip prematurely; apart from software/platform considerations it may fast enough to replace the m series chips. For now, only Apple (guess they have that running in their labs) really knows...

 

[c0ppo]

Burst? The video transcode test ran for 7:47 (vs 25:53 on the Macbook Pro or 31:03 in the i7 XPS). I wouldn't call that burst at all. Quite the opposite, given data suggest that if anything the other devices couldn't sustain its speed while the iPad could.

7mins is a burst. Try 12 hours for example.
And that test, what actual MBP did they use?

What software did they use? I'm no 'video guy' at all, never even used Adobe Premier or FCP, but even I know that FCP will render videos way faster then Adobe premiere on a way weaker machine. And by a large margin.

And Adobe apps shine on nVidia cards.

But also keep in mind, Intel m cpu-s are the least hungry, and weakest CPU's out there. Apple would need to produce A series chips for something like iMac and Mac Pros. Do you really expect iPad pro to compete with Xeons?

And Lightroom as a example, how do you import pictures into iPad, and then in Lightroom?
And how do you do it on pc/mac?

Apple could do wonders with A chips probably. But we will have to wait and see.
For now, ipad isn't even macbook 12" replacement, not to mention iMacs or Mac Pros.

 

[09872738]

7mins is a burst. Try 12 hours for example.
And that test, what actual MBP did they use?

What software did they use? I'm no 'video guy' at all, never even used Adobe Premier or FCP, but even I know that FCP will render videos way faster then Adobe premiere on a way weaker machine. And by a large margin.

And Adobe apps shine on nVidia cards.

But also keep in mind, Intel m cpu-s are the least hungry, and weakest CPU's out there. Apple would need to produce A series chips for something like iMac and Mac Pros. Do you really expect iPad pro to compete with Xeons?

And Lightroom as a example, how do you import pictures into iPad, and then in Lightroom?
And how do you do it on pc/mac?

Apple could do wonders with A chips probably. But we will have to wait and see.
For now, ipad isn't even macbook 12" replacement, not to mention iMacs or Mac Pros.

7 minutes is no burst. If it can run at full speed for 7 minutes without throttling it can do basically forever. The article does not state the Macbooks processor; however, the iPad also beat the Dell XPS with the i7 processor. By far.

That said, what gives you the impression we're talking A vs Xeon? I agree, A chips won't replace the Xeon anytime soon. But that's hardly the A series' point.
ARM based processors' biiiig advantage is its power efficiency. And apparently - as evidenced by given video transcoding test - in its Apple A guise it is also surprisingly fast, what makes it an ideal contender for mobile devices like the Macbook (Air) and, maybe even MBPs.
Sustained performance without the need for fans. Think of it: The A series chips seem the ideal mate for super slim, quiet mobile Macs. We all know how Apple loves thin, light, silent, don't we?

 

[c0ppo]

7 minutes is no burst. If it can run at full speed for 7 minutes without throttling it can do forever.

That said, what gives you the impression we're talking A vs Xeon? I agree, A chips won't replace the Xeon anytime soon.

Because this all topic started about "PRO" usage? And a hollywood studio wouldn't need just 7m to do their thing, but a lot longer than that. A LOT.

ARM based processors biiiig advantage is its power efficiency. And apparently - as evidenced by given video transcoding test - in its Apple A guise it is also fast enough, what makes it an ideal contender for mobile devices like the Macbook (Air).
Sustained performance without the need for fans. Think of it: The A series chips seem the ideal mate for super slim, quiet mobile Macs. We all know how Apple loves thin, light, silent, don't we?

Completely agree on this one. But the problem is, will Apple produce two completely different devices?
For example, will they make Macbook 12" and Macbook Air (or whatever) with ARM CPUs, and MBP/iMac/MP with x86?

Apple is for thing, light and silent. And ARM would do wonders there, no questions about that one.
But will Apple completely abandon pro market? Because with going all in on ARM, that would be the message they would send. And it wouldn't me a mixed message they are sending for the last couple of years.

And as Apple is known for thing, light and silent, Apple also isn't know for choices.
I would love a 12" MB with ARM. More battery life, powerful, and excellent device for casual tasks.

But will Apple give me then a powerful and beefy MBP with x86? Highly doubt it. But who knows, anything can happen. But it simply isn't in Apples DNA to do that

 

[turbineseaplane]

@c0ppo

I do think traditional power users might need to concerned about their future with Apple, if I'm being honest.

This company is so mainstream now and doing such immense mainstream product volume, that I think they'd be happy with "pro" simply meaning "people that make Apps for our mainstream platforms".

This is what I've tried to enforce in the minds of people worried about "bootcamp and Windows virtualization" moving forward (as one example). Apple does not care one iota about that use case. It's nice that's been possible, but Apple will drop that in a hot minute if it needs to in order to get more control, better margins and become even more integrated.

 

[09872738]

And as Apple is known for thing, light and silent, Apple also isn't know for choices.
I would love a 12" MB with ARM. More battery life, powerful, and excellent device for casual tasks.

But will Apple give me then a powerful and beefy MBP with x86? Highly doubt it. But who knows, anything can happen. But it simply isn't in Apples DNA to do that

Well, that is the question. I guess it depends on the toolchain. In case - and I really mean just in case - Apple's toolchain, Xcode, etc. are ready so apps are just a re-compile away - why not?

There are already two platforms sharing quite a bit of code. And Apple is also working on unifying development in a way that apps are developed for both iOS and macOS using the same Xcode project. It therefore seems the toolchain is already there - the step to also compile for macOS ARM is a relatively short one (I assume, admittedly)

 

[jeremiah256]

Apples 'A' chips are powerful. No denying that.
But how do they behave when doing intensive tasks for hours upon hours? And they lack instruction sets embedded into Intel/AMD x86 chips.

And being hardware powerful isn't being powerful. You can use iPad for a lot of regular stuff these days. And they will get the work done without any issues (well, mostly...). But for heavy pro work like video editing/rendering, heavy photo editing, 3D work, CAD stuff, etc. -> iPad is as useful as is an iPhone. Just a toy in that regard.

I mean, you can't even develop apps for iPad on an actual iPad. And even if you could, who would go for such a hassle in the first place?

Further more, you can't connect external drives to iPads. You can't use your multi monitor setup with an iPad. You can't even connect it to a mouse and a keyboard.

So while iPad does a few things right and good, in most of heavy work stuff it fails completely, or isn't usable at all.

I'm not an expert on photo or video editing and production, so this question contains no snark, not trying to 'trap' anyone.

I see multiple videos on YouTube where they are editing and exporting RAW images and 4K video on the iPad Pro. And these photos and videos are used to make serious money for these people. This year, full Photoshop, including Adobe's AR app, is coming to the iPad Pro. How is this not classified as 'heavy' work? I understand that you aren't going to make a Hollywood film on an iPad, but you're also not going to do this on any generic laptop, so how is the iPad Pro any more a 'toy' than a generic PC?

Example:

 

[_Kiki_]

You bought a Honda Civic. Apple sells BMWs.

no, your analogy is wrong, I bought a PC laptop, but the iPad it's an expensive toy

 

[Retsiem]

Of course, there is a exception to every rule.
But in my mind, developers, 3d graphic designers, video editors, CAD, novelists, writers, etc.

Novelists and writers can write on anything with a keyboard.

The publishing part is where it gets tricky, because iOS does not run inDesign and not even proper Word.

I generally agree with where you're coming from, but you might want to clarify what you personally mean by "Pro".

I guarantee you there are "Professionals" who only use iPads, it's just dependent upon what their job entails (what industry/position/their work needs, etc).

In my profession I mostly need textediting, pdfs, presentation and some image editing.
An iPad can easily do that.

In reality I use a Macbook Pro, because iOS is not good enough.

But my post was more about the near future.
Tablets will replace Laptops.

 

[Mendota]

You bought a Honda Civic. Apple sells BMWs.

Don't kid yourself. But then again BMW's are known for having reliability issues and they cost a fortune to fix after the warranty gives out. As a result people often don't keep them beyond a few years. So in that sense your comparison is correct. As for your knock on Surface, I use them and they run really really well, and they are beautiful to look at.... And you know what else?... The keyboards all work.

 

[rayriceroni00]

Don't kid yourself. But then again BMW's are known for having reliability issues and they cost a fortune to fix after the warranty gives out. As a result people often don't keep them beyond a few years. So in that sense your comparison is correct. As for your knock on Surface, I use them and they run really really well, and they are beautiful to look at.... And you know what else?... The keyboards all work.

Calling surface beautiful? Hmmm

They're above average at best. My keyboard works just fine. I also have apple Care so can replace it if I have any problems.

 

[Queen6]

Calling surface beautiful? Hmmm

They're above average at best. My keyboard works just fine. I also have apple Care so can replace it if I have any problems.

Sadly Apple is entering a stage where the customer accepting less is more for Apple, at a higher price point. Over 20 years with the Mac and not a single one utilised professionally today, that one firmly sits with Apple.

I don't need AppleCare, I need hardware solutions that I'm confident will perform, Apple transgressed that barrier; downtime costs, backup systems cost. Apple is literally shooting itself in the foot with the professional community, nor is Apple any longer trustworthy of being a provider of professional hardware as the company is so completely unpredictable.

TLDR Dumped Apple as a serious hardware provider...

Q-6

 

[turbineseaplane]

I don't need AppleCare, I need hardware solutions that I'm confident will perform, Apple transgressed that barrier;

It reminds me of car companies that build and source components that are literally designed to last juuuuust long enough to make it out of warranty - then they break.

Definitely helps sell parts and/or extended warranties!

Sadly this is antithetical to what us long time users came to expect from Apple and thus this is intensely disappointing.

 

[rayriceroni00]

Sadly Apple is entering a stage where the customer accepting less is more for Apple, at a higher price point. Over 20 years with the Mac and not a single one utilised professionally today, that one firmly sits with Apple.

I don't need AppleCare, I need hardware solutions that I'm confident will perform, Apple transgressed that barrier; downtime costs, backup systems cost. Apple is literally shooting itself in the foot with the professional community, nor is Apple any longer trustworthy of being a provider of professional hardware as the company is so completely unpredictable.

TLDR Dumped Apple as a serious hardware provider...

Q-6

I still think things like their track pad, their screens, the flash storage, etc are top notch.

Buy what you want then. I got tired of typical trash laptops, so I went apple. Been happy ever since.
[doublepost=1551124759][/doublepost]

It reminds me of car companies that build and source components that are literally designed to last juuuuust long enough to make it out of warranty - then they break.

Definitely helps sell parts and/or extended warranties!

Sadly this is antithetical to what us long time users came to expect from Apple and thus this is intensely disappointing.

Apple laptops still tend to last much longer than their competition.

 

[Queen6]

It reminds me of car companies that build and source components that are literally designed to last juuuuust long enough to make it out of warranty - then they break.

Definitely helps sell parts and/or extended warranties!

Sadly this is antithetical to what us long time users came to expect from Apple and thus this is intensely disappointing.

Going, going, gone. Apple's loss not mine it's an exodus, with so many professional users approaching or surpassing breaking point. Once you add $$$$$$ into the equation it becomes a very simple decision.

What I'm interested in is the hardware delivering as advertised, not an extended warranty on piss poor designed hardware. sick and tired of Apple's excuses and it's defenders...

Q-6

 

[rayriceroni00]

Going, going, gone. Apple's loss not mine it's an exodus, with so many professional users approaching or surpassing breaking point. Once you add $$$$$$ into the equation it becomes a very simple decision.

What I'm interested in is the hardware delivering as advertised, not an extended warranty on piss poor designed hardware. sick and tired of Apple's excuses and it's defenders...

Q-6

Have you used many laptops in the last 10 years? They're mostly trash. By year 3, they are starting to seriously show their age both physically and in performance.

The whining about the keyboard, which is easily replaceable, and the over blown flex gate issue is about all that's come out of Apple in the last few years regarding their laptops.