Anyone else abandoning ship?

[WinterWolf90]

You mean like right clicking and selecting uninstall



You mean crap like chess, and garageband. The volume of space garage band takes is mind boggling and a complete waste.


*cough* they do *cough*

Yup, I uninstalled garage band and was amazed how much space I got back.

 

[MBAir2010]

Apple been a part of my work life since 1990 and in my home since 1998, i almost left 2 months ago because of the direction the computers were not up to apple supporters expectations.

 

[booksbooks]

Thank you for making the point that I was trying to make, obviously unsuccessfully. Again, thank you.
NOW, back to the general topic of the thread.

Thank you for making the point that I was trying to make, obviously unsuccessfully. Again, thank you.
NOW, back to the general topic of the thread.

Some Surface Book design
compromises. FACT, not opinion.

• The hinge creates a large bulge and makes the laptop much thicker at the point, also creating a large gap: design compromise.
• The battery life of the tablet is ~half of what leading tablets are: design compromise.
• The screen is thicker and heavier than laptop screens: design compromise.
• The degrees of the freedom of the hinge are relatively limited: design compromise

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Some Surface Book design
compromises. FACT, not opinion.

• The hinge creates a large bulge and makes the laptop much thicker at the point, also creating a large gap: design compromise.
• The battery life of the tablet is ~half of what leading tablets are: design compromise.
• The screen is thicker and heavier than laptop screens: design compromise.
• The degrees of the freedom of the hinge are relatively limited: design compromise

I wish Apple would make some thicker design compromises that result in a better keyboard, more ports, and the return of MagSafe. Maybe a thicker screen for a touchscreen with Apple Pencil support? Yay design compromises!

Also, I think we can end this argument by changing the word compromise to decision. That is all.

 

[Mendota]

I think the “complaining” in this thread, for most of us, is directly commensurate with amount of love and time spent touting and loving the Mac OS and hardware. I remember defending it to so many people over the oughts and teens. I had to use windows for work, but my real work and joy was using Apple Macs at home.

Apple has taken advantage of that. They have coasted for years in all the wrong directions as they have gotten fat suckling off iPhone sales.

The “complaining” isn’t because we have nothing better to do and all the time in the world. It is in spite of being a writer, artist, programmer, as well as my personal life. No, we are in a state of mourning, and are here to mourn with others. We loved macs that much. It’s a shame that Apple doesn’t share that love.

Bingo, you hit the nail on the head. We need Macs to stay in the game. We need the variety. We need the options to have different tools. I prefer Windows but I still enjoy Mac and have always had one to go to for a different experience. I use Linux for the same reason, but it is not as good as my Mac experience. I have family members who find Mac easier and are in the system. How can I tell them to buy new Macs? Now that Apple has all the money in the world to really make it shine, what do they do?

Still they have done a good job with the iPads, but why can't they do both well?

 

[Martyimac]

Apple been a part of my work life since 1990 and in my home since 1998, i almost left 2 months ago because of the direction the computers were not up to apple supporters expectations.

Absolutely agree with you. Luckily for me I shouldn't need to buy another computer, laptop or Desktop, for about 3-4 years. I've thought about giving my iPad pro 10.5 (previous generation) to my wife who has an iPad air. But to tell you the truth, she uses it so little that it really isn't worth it to me to spend the money for me to upgrade to the latest iPad pro 11". That and what  is doing with their hardware makes me hesitate to lock myself in any more than I am to their hardware.

 

[SDColorado]

Absolutely agree with you. Luckily for me I shouldn't need to buy another computer, laptop or Desktop, for about 3-4 years. I've thought about giving my iPad pro 10.5 (previous generation) to my wife who has an iPad air. But to tell you the truth, she uses it so little that it really isn't worth it to me to spend the money for me to upgrade to the latest iPad pro 11". That and what  is doing with their hardware makes me hesitate to lock myself in any more than I am to their hardware.

I still have a 9.7" iPP. I wasn't making good use of and thought that maybe I would use it more if I purchased a 12.9" . I did that in summer 2017, but found it still was of little use to me. Speaking of design compromises. The lack of mouse/touchpad support, lack of full OS, lack of ports, make it a limited device. The iPad Pro may be the best tablet on the market, but so what. There aren't a lot of viable tablets in a shrinking tablet market. I ended up returning it and purchasing a 2017 Surface Pro. The Surface Pro I use constantly and it has become a "go to" travel computer. The iPP has become a device that is basically a bedside table media device.

Meanwhile, the 2-1 computer market has expanded and market growth is predicted. So it appears there is a market for winged lawnmowers.

I haven't jumped ship yet, still owning everything Apple other than the Surface Pro, but I am pretty sure I have purchased my last iPad.

 

[booksbooks]

I wish Apple would make some thicker design compromises that result in a better keyboard, more ports, and the return of MagSafe. Maybe a thicker screen for a touchscreen with Apple Pencil support? Yay design compromises!

Also, I think we can end this argument by changing the word compromise to decision. That is all.

They are not merely decisions. They are compromises. For instance, the hinge is designed the way it is to support and counterbalance the relatively heavy screen that is 13.5" and a tablet. If that wasn't there, the hinge would not be like that, but more like a standard laptop screen that doesn't create the significant thickness and gap.

Almost nobody will copy Microsoft on the hinge either because the design compromises it makes. Lenovo and their Yoga is a much better implementation start, just need to get it to allow the removal of the screen.

The tablet battery life: it only lasts realistically a max of 5 hours, with many reports as low as 2-3 hours. Microsoft could not add much more weight to the tablet because it serves as a screen when docked, so they had to make design compromises because they are dealing with a 2-in-1 design. This battery life is half of leading tablets.

The actual size of the tablet begins to break the threshold of what a usable tablet is to a person because of how giant it is: it's this size not because this is tablet optimal, but because it's more optimal for a laptop. The 12.9 iPad Pro first and second generation was huge and awkward, but somewhat usable. Imagine dealing with a tablet whose screen is 13.5" or even more than 15"... and this is a tablet that doesn't have the built-in kickstand like the Surface Pro. I want a bigger screen more than anyone, but using a tablet can also mean holding it for periods of time, etc. and the size can make it difficult to use.

 

[Painter2002]

They are not merely decisions. They are compromises. For instance, the hinge is designed the way it is to support and counterbalance the relatively heavy screen that is 13.5" and a tablet. If that wasn't there, the hinge would not be like that, but more like a standard laptop screen that doesn't create the significant thickness and gap.

They are not compromises. If Microsoft wanted, they could have made hinges like those used on other machines that would have supported the heavy tablet/screen. It was a design decision to not go with a different more robust version of traditional hinges. Perhaps it was a compromise on the corporate and budgetary level to go with this design, but again, it is NOT a design compromise ultimately. Or it was a designers decision to try something different and original.

Either way, I think many here are in agreement that these aren't design compromises but rather decisions made by Microsoft to go with their designers' drawing board ideas or some other decision making done by corporate.

 

[booksbooks]

They are not compromises. If Microsoft wanted, they could have made hinges like those used on other machines that would have supported the heavy tablet/screen. It was a design decision to not go with a different more robust version of traditional hinges. Perhaps it was a compromise on the corporate and budgetary level to go with this design, but again, it is NOT a design compromise ultimately. Or it was a designers decision to try something different and original.

Either way, I think many here are in agreement that these aren't design compromises but rather decisions made by Microsoft to go with their designers' drawing board ideas or some other decision making done by corporate.

They made the hinge the way they did to support the weight of the tablet so the screen wouldn't wobble or fall degrees. It's a compromise that creates its own set of issues.

Directly quoting from the Windows Club:

"This Hinge plays a very important role in the functioning of the [Surface Book]. This is due to the fact that both the keyboard attachment and the display are really heavy and needs to be properly calibrated to support each other."

Anandtech:

"...One of the cons of a detachable convertible is that the display section is much heavier, and it can lead to a notebook which wants to tip backwards when the display is open. In order to combat that, Microsoft has created the dynamic fulcrum hinge. The obvious easy solution to a detachable device is to just add more weight to the base, but this has obvious drawbacks since weight is the one thing people are not looking for in an Ultrabook. Microsoft stated that the extra length on the base allows them to use a weight ratio of 0.8:1 of keyboard to display, which means that the overall weight of the device has been reduced over what it would need to be with a traditional hinge. But there is no getting around the fact that the 13.5-inch display is packed full of components, and despite moving the fulcrum rearwards, the Surface Book is still dangling 726 grams, or 1.6 lbs, on top of the hinge. This, combined with the taller aspect ratio of the display, definitely makes the Surface Book less balanced than a traditional laptop. Using the Surface Book in my lap can cause it to want to tip backwards, depending on the angle of my legs. It’s not a true tablet like the Surface Pro 4, mostly because of the limited battery capacity inside the tablet section"

 

[Painter2002]

They made the hinge the way they did to support he weight of the tablet so the screen wouldn't wobble or fall degrees. It's a compromise that creates its own set of issues.

Ok, well looks like I will just agree to disagree.

 

[booksbooks]

Ok, well looks like I will just agree to disagree.

Incredulous = (of a person or their manner) unwilling or unable to believe something

 

[richinaus]

Incredulous = (of a person or their manner) unwilling or unable to believe something

You are both right. It is a design decision and also a compromise.

A design decision to allow the tablet section to be removable and flip over.
A compromise as the design needed to be special to allow for the decision to allow a function.

 

[Martyimac]

Compromise does not necessarily mean something is bad. This has been pointed out.

 

[booksbooks]

Compromise does not necessarily mean something is bad. This has been pointed out.

Some Surface Book design compromises. FACT, not opinion.

• The hinge creates a large bulge and makes the laptop much thicker at the point, also creating a large gap: design compromise.
• The battery life of the tablet is ~half of what leading tablets are: design compromise.
• The screen is thicker and heavier than laptop screens: design compromise.
• The degrees of the freedom of the hinge are relatively limited: design compromise

 

[Martyimac]

Some Surface Book design compromises. FACT, not opinion.

• The hinge creates a large bulge and makes the laptop much thicker at the point, also creating a large gap: design compromise.
• The battery life of the tablet is ~half of what leading tablets are: design compromise.
• The screen is thicker and heavier than laptop screens: design compromise.
• The degrees of the freedom of the hinge are relatively limited: design compromise

I'll just put this here. https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/03/23/same/

 

[richinaus]

Some Surface Book design compromises. FACT, not opinion.

• The hinge creates a large bulge and makes the laptop much thicker at the point, also creating a large gap: design compromise.
• The battery life of the tablet is ~half of what leading tablets are: design compromise.
• The screen is thicker and heavier than laptop screens: design compromise.
• The degrees of the freedom of the hinge are relatively limited: design compromise

These are all design solutions in order to create a 2 in 1 laptop with the function they desired.

Thinking about it more they shouldn't be defined as compromises, as they are what they need to be in order to deliver a brief, therefor not compromised but solutions.

The hinge gap when closed is a design solution to allow certain functions of the laptop. Ideally it should close fully without a bulge. So yes in terms of solutions they went for function over form, whereas some manufacturers [Apple......] go for form over function in areas such as the keyboard.

Just basic design decisions really. Best design delivers on both form and function.

 

[booksbooks]

These are all design solutions in order to create a 2 in 1 laptop with the function they desired.

Thinking about it more they shouldn't be defined as compromises, as they are what they need to be in order to deliver a brief, therefor not compromised but solutions.

The hinge gap when closed is a design solution to allow certain functions of the laptop. Ideally it should close fully without a bulge. So yes in terms of solutions they went for function over form, whereas some manufacturers [Apple......] go for form over function in areas such as the keyboard.

Just basic design decisions really. Best design delivers on both form and function.

They are design compromises from doing too many things in one framework.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

They are design compromises from doing too many things in one framework.

Apple made design compromises from doing too many things to get thinness. They had to nerf the processors under load. They had to nerf the best keyboard in the business, they had to lower the battery life from what it could be if they let it. Oh, they also compromised away magsafe and no SD Card slot. There are more, uh, compromises of course. All for thinness. Sad really. See how this works?

And don't get me started on the iPad. Also, these are design decisions, but I can see you like to argue just to argue...

 

[albertfallickwa]

Ironically even though I am a huge PC gamer/Windows guy, I plan to procure a MacBook Pro for some of my programming clients who need apps in iOS in fact.

 

[booksbooks]

Apple made design compromises from doing too many things to get thinness. They had to nerf the processors under load. They had to nerf the best keyboard in the business, they had to lower the battery life from what it could be if they let it. Oh, they also compromised away magsafe and no SD Card slot. There are more, uh, compromises of course. All for thinness. Sad really. See how this works?

And don't get me started on the iPad. Also, these are design decisions, but I can see you like to argue just to argue...

iPad = 10 hours of battery life.
Surface Book tablet = half that.

Design compromise. Just because other companies make design compromises doesn't invalidate Microsoft's compromises. I never said Apple didn't make design compromises. That isn't the point. The point is that a 2-in-1 convertible is a questionable device because of the compromises that are made to the laptop part and the tablet part and in relation to dedicated laptops and dedicated tablets.

 

[SDColorado]

Apple made design compromises from doing too many things to get thinness. They had to nerf the processors under load. They had to nerf the best keyboard in the business, they had to lower the battery life from what it could be if they let it. Oh, they also compromised away magsafe and no SD Card slot. There are more, uh, compromises of course. All for thinness. Sad really. See how this works?

And don't get me started on the iPad. Also, these are design decisions, but I can see you like to argue just to argue...

Don't forget the flexgate issue, where Apple in its obsession with thinness made a poor design decision (compromise if you will) by making the cable part of the display so that it cannot be replaced. So the fragile flex cable breaks under the stress of repeated openings and closings, and instead of replacing a $6 or less cable, its a $600 repair job.

 

[Martyimac]

iPad = 10 hours of battery life.
Surface Book tablet = half that.

Design compromise. Just because other companies make design compromises doesn't invalidate Microsoft's compromises. I never said Apple didn't make design compromises. That isn't the point. The point is that a 2-in-1 convertible is a questionable device because of the compromises that are made to the laptop part and the tablet part and in relation to dedicated laptops and dedicated tablets.

Seems the general public and tech magazines disagree with your assessment of them being questionable.
https://www.zdnet.com/article/sales-of-2-in-1-devices-to-carry-a-sinking-pc-market-in-2018-idc/
https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/your-next-laptop-should-be-a-2-in-1
https://www.windowscentral.com/should-you-buy-laptop-or-2-1
https://www.consumerreports.org/laptop-computers/best-2-in-1-laptops/

If you concentrate on the overall comments. You can read how 2 in 1 computers not only aren't questionable, but actually gaining in popularity.
It seems folks like the compromises made.

 

[booksbooks]

Seems the general public and tech magazines disagree with your assessment of them being questionable.
https://www.zdnet.com/article/sales-of-2-in-1-devices-to-carry-a-sinking-pc-market-in-2018-idc/
https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/your-next-laptop-should-be-a-2-in-1
https://www.windowscentral.com/should-you-buy-laptop-or-2-1
https://www.consumerreports.org/laptop-computers/best-2-in-1-laptops/

If you concentrate on the overall comments. You can read how 2 in 1 computers not only aren't questionable, but actually gaining in popularity.
It seems folks like the compromises made.

They're questionable, and they always have been. It's what made the iPad come to market and dominate: failed Windows tablets and convertibles. Turns out the thin, simplistic, slate device that is the iPad is what put tablets on the map, not 2-in-1 devices. And why iPad sells in the millions every quarter.

The Surface Book and Yoga are interesting, but they are not the best laptops and not the best tablets because they compromise given their 2-in-1 nature. This extends to the software as well. They will never dominate dedicated laptops and tablets like the iPad, MacBook Pro, Dell XPS, etc.
[doublepost=1554092915][/doublepost]

Seems the general public and tech magazines disagree with your assessment of them being questionable.
https://www.zdnet.com/article/sales-of-2-in-1-devices-to-carry-a-sinking-pc-market-in-2018-idc/
https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/your-next-laptop-should-be-a-2-in-1
https://www.windowscentral.com/should-you-buy-laptop-or-2-1
https://www.consumerreports.org/laptop-computers/best-2-in-1-laptops/

If you concentrate on the overall comments. You can read how 2 in 1 computers not only aren't questionable, but actually gaining in popularity.
It seems folks like the compromises made.

No, they don't. You post 4 articles and can't generalize from that, and that these articles actually don't fully support your position. Articles that, overall, are all over the place.

Reality:

"...sales of detachables in general were relatively weak in Q3 [2018]: total tablet sales in the region fell 2.9 per cent to 7.5 million. The slate form factor accounted for the majority of these shipments into the channel. Detachables, which accounted for one-fifth of the sector, declined 14.5 per cent year-on-year."

The 2-in-1s are better than they were 15 years ago, no surprise there. But the same principles apply.

The numbers speak to the reality I experience as well. In the corporate world where I exist, including working with contractors from all over Canada and the US, along with in-house staff (I'm in IT), nobody has a 2-in-1.

When I move about the world, Starbucks, malls, restaurants, etc., almost nobody has 2-in-1s. People use smartphones. And then we have laptops as a portable desktop. A tablet has a hard enough time competing with big smartphones, let along a design compromised iteration of it stuck in a 2-in-1 worm hole.

 

[Queen6]

Seems the general public and tech magazines disagree with your assessment of them being questionable.
https://www.zdnet.com/article/sales-of-2-in-1-devices-to-carry-a-sinking-pc-market-in-2018-idc/
https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/your-next-laptop-should-be-a-2-in-1
https://www.windowscentral.com/should-you-buy-laptop-or-2-1
https://www.consumerreports.org/laptop-computers/best-2-in-1-laptops/

If you concentrate on the overall comments. You can read how 2 in 1 computers not only aren't questionable, but actually gaining in popularity.
It seems folks like the compromises made.

Since opting for a 2in1 I wont go back to a sole basic clamshell solution. The 2in1 is just too useful on the go, it can deal with the consumption needs, and can do what no Android or IOS device can do on the productivity side. A 2in1 is now very much a viable solution with numerous designs to allow the flip from notebook to tablet.

The usability and utility they offer is just growing as more Dev's get into them and the hardware advances. I did once think the likes of the Surface Book would only be implemented by Apple, ironically it was Microsoft, they will continue to impress as at least they are trying and have some imagination. I passed my Surface Book to my daughter, she now gets tremendous use out of the 2in1 features, between schoolwork and being a digital artist.

As my primary notebook is a 17.3" heavy lifter, I opted for a Surface Pro clone and it has yet to disappoint, being more than adequate for my needs on the go. I did consider Android & IPP, however discounted both as they, and their software is mostly consumption orientated, with productivity often requiring workarounds with numerous steps as opposed to a full desktop OS where the user has a greater level of control and choice of applications.

Back on topic, the lack of a serviceable 2in1 in Apple's line is also a consideration, especially given the price point with the 13" MBP being basically just another clamshell ultrabook with a different OS. Add in the questionable keyboard, other issues and Apple's price gouging the value is very much diminishing for those who can work cross platform...

Q-6