Anyone else abandoning ship?

[theluggage]

I find it really interesting that the Surface products, which are often just as expensive as Macs (sometime more) and just as non-upgradable get so many passes from the MacBook critics in this thread.

I had a Surface Book briefly in 2017 - until it succumbed to the "Sleep of Death" problem (fortunately, I got it from a store with a 30-day no quibble guarantee so returning it was painless). I could have got a replacement, but a bit of googling revealed that the problem was widely reported, unexplained and unfixed.

Trouble is, thanks to the internet, that's now a dilemma with virtually any product and its always hard to gauge whether such problems are really widespread, or happening to a small number of vocal people drowning out a silent majority of satisfied customers. I chose to get my money back rather than roll the dice again. With no explanation, how could I know if it was something in my usage pattern that exacerbated the problem (which is one explanation for those people who seemingly get hit by a fault again and again...)?

Apart from that (Mrs Lincoln) the Surface Book was great, the ports - MiniDP and USB 3-A, just what I needed (which didn't include attaching dual 5k displays and SSD RAID arrays to a thermally restricted 13" ultrabook) and the discrete GPU "good enough" that needing an eGPU was not an issue. At the time, I had a compelling reason to want to use it in Tablet Mode - but that was the first thing that failed and my take home was that, perhaps, the underlying concept simply had too much that could go wrong.


...all of which would be very bad for PC/Windows if Macs didn't have a catalogue of similar issues. Even my beloved 2011 17" MBP had the dreaded GPU fault (well, they all had the faulty design), and I was lucky that it went 3-4 years before failing, was fixed for free, and then lasted another 3 years (the dGPU is dead now). If I go PC again I'll probably take the opportunity to get something cheaper or more modular on the grounds that nothing is guaranteed to be fault free.


Obligatory XKCD:

 

[bidwellian]

Thinking of buying a nice PC and Hackintoshing it so I can run Garageband/Logic and be able to plug my usb midi devices and a microphone jack that Apple left out of a PRO machine.

Not even an ethernet port? WIFI is great for surfin' but sometimes you need to connect to the ethernet. (At least I do) HDMI would be nice, and a thunderbolt port...I have external hard drives that need Firewire...and the crumby keyboard. Pro users run software that require the F-keys.

So, can anyone recommend a PC that can replace my beloved Macbook Pro?

 

[Mendota]

There are lots of people who purchase MacBooks that present no issues, too, including all the post 2015 models. I'm not sure where your understanding of what sounds like out-of-warranty replacement by Microsoft in the event of an issue is coming from, but their standard warranty service looks pretty standard to me: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4036296/surface-warranty-information

In the event of a problem Microsoft doesn't attempt to open it up and fix it. If it is in warranty they will give you a new one. If it is out of warranty they will sell you a refurbished one for around $400 to $600. For me if the machine last 4 to 6 years without issues then I am fine with the sealed designs. What I don't want is an unreliable device that costs me time and money.
[doublepost=1553885987][/doublepost]

I agree that it's not all roses in Appleland, but I bet a quick online search could reveal similar complaints and user horror stories from Surface and all the other major Windows players as well. I know for a fact the first generation SurfaceBook plagued people with blue screen errors, graphics card problems, and other hardware and design issues.

I guess time will tell how my new MacBook Pro will fare. This is my second MacBook Pro.. I also have an iMac, I've owned countess iPads, iPhones, 3 Apple watches, Airpods, Pencil, etc.. and the only actual hardware issue I've had with any of the Apple products I've owned so far was a spot on my 10.5 iPad Pro screen, which Apple replaced at the appointment. So at the end of the day I have to base my final buying decisions on my own personal experience with Apple's products, which has been largely positive and issue-free. Some of you will think I've been lucky, but the complaints and the problems are always more reported and easier to find online (and for good reason a lot of the time), so I'm probably more the norm than the exception.
[doublepost=1553881524][/doublepost]

Agreed 100%. 5400RPM drives still being sold in premium devices in 2019 is ridiculous and inexcusable.

I have a first gen Surface Book. i7, dgpu, 500gig ssd. The primary issues were with the Intel graphic drivers. That is what caused the blue screen and graphic problems. Once those were sorted out, all has been well. The Book continues to perform perfectly, but I agree that it is unfortunate that a little more testing should have taken place to prevent the driver issues. Having said that my only reason to upgrade will be the larger screen and more gpu ram.

My experience with my carefully selected Apple products has also been quite positive to be fair. But I feel I have to research carefully. My first gen iPad pro has been flawless and very enjoyable. No issues with my MacBook 2012, also very enjoyable. I just hope that I can find an upgrade to my MacBook that I can rely on in the future. The iPad line is pretty solid.

 

[SweWriter]

I think Apple could make a laptop with the 2015 design and dimensions and just upgrade the specs and call it Macbook Classic. Keep the Pro line for the thin-and-light sheeples all you want, just give that option those who want it.

I would buy one for each family member. Now THIS is what I want.

 

[nerowolfe19]

I would buy one for each family member. Now THIS is what I want.

My 2012 rMBP is getting a little long in the tooth. I'd love a replace it with something more powerful when it bites the dust, but until Apple gets its act together I'm holding on to it with a death grip. Maybe buy a used 2015 one until they come up with something decent (fingers crossed.)

 

[c0ppo]

Well, some users suffer from flex cable issues, speakers crackling, T2 chip issues, etc. Those are probably in minority.
But apparently a lot of users (myself included, multiple times) suffered from keyboard issues.

Now in front page Apple has canceled Air Power. I never really understood the hype about that product in the first place. It's a charger. Nothing more, nothing less. Actually, it's nothing now since it's canceled.

Something is really rotten in Cupertino. For the sake of Apple and especially my beloved Mac OS, I do hope that Tim Cook will be history soon enough, and that his replacement will change top people in Apple. Lately there are more issues with Apple products then 'magic'.

 

[MBAir2010]

Agreed

 

[sigsegv]

The latest MacBook Pros aren't "Pro" at all; at least not for this professional. Was using my own 2015 MBP until about a year ago when I had to switch to a 2017 because my new employer insisted I switch to a company-purchased machine.

Apple clearly have leapt to form over function with this machine. In the pursuit of thin-ness and fake selling points they ditched a decent keyboard for something with no travel, replaced the top row of keys (including Esc) with a strip of hard plastic with no feel, and reduced clearances so that cables pinch and fail prematurely.

That is the total opposite of what a "Pro" model should be. I have not seen this level of crappiness since my titanium PowerBook.

As a result, my MacBook "Pro" spends 100% of its time in clamshell mode with a 4k monitor and a CODE keyboard, and my 2015 MBP is kept for all work away from my desk.

I have had my eyes on either a Thinkpad X1 Carbon or a Dell XPS13 Developer Edition. Ready to consign MacBooks to history.

 

[MBAir2010]

The latest MacBook Pros aren't "Pro" at all; at least not for this professional. Was using my own 2015 MBP until about a year ago when I had to switch to a 2017 because my new employer insisted I switch to a company-purchased machine.

I have had my eyes on either a Thinkpad X1 Carbon or a Dell XPS13 Developer Edition. Ready to consign MacBooks to history.

Whatsa dell xps 13 de?
I tried selecting a dell online but could not pick my style choice, i think
And
Did they pay fer the 2017 mbp?
I know bisness is bissness, i guess im lick no one cared what i used, just the results mattered.
Have you tried linux?

 

[booksbooks]

There is no strawman in my points. You are just ignoring them because they cannot be disproved. I doubt if you even know what the definition of "strawman" is, because you are using the term incorrectly.

And there is no point in further discussion with you, and I refuse to derail the thread. Have a good day using whatever you prefer.
[doublepost=1553870122][/doublepost]

The Surface Book is designed for particular purposes. No one who chooses it cares that it is thicker. Again with the obsession on looks. No one who buys Surface Book cares about thunderbolt or else they would buy something else. The number one reason Apple users care is to use an egpu. Something that is unnecessary on Surface Book. My preference is based on my use. I like the Book for what it does for me. I like to paint, and every product I own, with the exception of the MacBook allows me to do that. I also like to game on occasion and the Book works quite well for that.

None of the things you mention about MacBook or Dell have any meaning to me or anyone who choose the Book... I don't know why that is such an issue for either of you to grasp. As for power I use my desktop workstation that blows the doors off any laptop. I don't need excessive power in my laptops. I need them to be reliable and I want to draw on them. In Apple's world I use iPad.

Strawman: an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument. You continue to argue. You continue to erect strawmen. You refuse to acknowledge the objective fact and reality that the Surface Book makes design compromises. You are unable to accept facts and truth.

 

[sigsegv]

Whatsa dell xps 13 de?
I tried selecting a dell online but could not pick my style choice, i think
And
Did they pay fer the 2017 mbp?
I know bisness is bissness, i guess im lick no one cared what i used, just the results mattered.
Have you tried linux?

The Developer Edition XPS13 ships with Ubuntu preinstalled and without Windows.

And yes, I've run Linux (and even FreeBSD) on laptops occasionally for the past 20 years. For a short time in the mid '00s I actually contributed new drivers to the Linux kernel to make my laptop work, but eventually I had no time for that.

I'm running Fedora on my old 2015 MBP. I'm not totally opposed to running Windows but I'd prefer not.

 

[snowboarder]

Something is really rotten in Cupertino. For the sake of Apple and especially my beloved Mac OS, I do hope that Tim Cook will be history soon enough, and that his replacement will change top people in Apple. Lately there are more issues with Apple products then 'magic'.

Exactly.
$250 Billion in cash is not enough to design a device a Joe Shmoe 5 people garage company makes for $20?

 

[Queen6]

Well, some users suffer from flex cable issues, speakers crackling, T2 chip issues, etc. Those are probably in minority.
But apparently a lot of users (myself included, multiple times) suffered from keyboard issues.

Now in front page Apple has canceled Air Power. I never really understood the hype about that product in the first place. It's a charger. Nothing more, nothing less. Actually, it's nothing now since it's canceled.

Something is really rotten in Cupertino. For the sake of Apple and especially my beloved Mac OS, I do hope that Tim Cook will be history soon enough, and that his replacement will change top people in Apple. Lately there are more issues with Apple products then 'magic'.

Very much agree, what Apple does need to cancel is the Butterfly keyboard. It's a major brand, it's simply ridiculous that they have so little regard for the customer and such a limited capacity to deal with multiple products and or updates...

Q-6

 

[jeremiah256]

Sure, except Dell's professional version of the XPS is called Precision 5530 and that one currently costs $2,709.00 (on special offer) for comparable config, so more or less identical to the MBP.

Internal construction wise, the MBP is much closer to the Precision and uses more expensive components and a more complex board layout than the XPS (just compare pictures of the logic boards of the two laptops). MBP has more thunderbolt controllers, a hardware GPU multiplexer (like Precision), better WiFi chip, advanced surge protection, custom manufactured GPU (thats not a cheap thing to have), and I don't know what else, not counting custom Apple coprocessors and stuff like the Touch Bar of course.

And please don't get me wrong: I am not trying to claim that the MBP is 40% "better" than the XPS in any regard. I am simply pointing out that the price difference is not just due to Apple charging some arbitrary high amount of money, but because the MBP is actually a significantly more expensive product to make. Whether it makes it any better in practice is a different question and its up to the user whether they want to pay more money for some engineering features they probably won't notice.

Thanks for the info. I'm still sorting through the multiple lines of computers that all PC manufactures seem to have, so it's not always apparent which to look at when comparing them, and especially when comparing them to a Mac. Luckily I have some time.

As for MBPs and the expense to make them, I'm all for that...if that extra expense benefits me and I derive some kind of satisfaction. For those that still enjoy using Apple laptops, great. I understand. For me, maybe I'm getting old, Apple's laptop line is no longer something I enjoy.

The inaccessibility of MacBooks bugs me. Punishing those that don't want the Touch Bar by not making a comparable model bugs me. The inability to buy an external...an external eGPU with an Nvidia card bugs me. The trend toward uniformity across all their laptops, the cookie-cutter approach, bugs me.

Strangely enough, the first step toward me leaving the Apple laptop world will be to get an iMac to do the heavy lifting my 2011 MBP used to do for the family. That's happening within two week. After that, I'm under no pressure and I can shop around for a PC laptop to replace my personal MB.

 

[MBAir2010]

The Developer Edition XPS13 ships with Ubuntu preinstalled and without Windows.

And yes, I've run Linux (and even FreeBSD) on laptops occasionally for the past 20 years. For a short time in the mid '00s I actually contributed new drivers to the Linux kernel to make my laptop work, but eventually I had no time for that.

I'm running Fedora on my old 2015 MBP. I'm not totally opposed to running Windows but I'd prefer not.

I was running Mint last year on a web project, the os is very clean, now I'm using windows at another job now.There is not a difference we realize using windows because we are intent on our projects until an alert appears suggesting i use some DNA.com to see if my grandparents were robotic luggage thieves years ago!

 

[Mendota]

Strawman: an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument. You continue to argue. You continue to erect strawmen. You refuse to acknowledge the objective fact and reality that the Surface Book makes design compromises. You are unable to accept facts and truth.

1.Your opinions are not facts;
2. Your so called position in this discussion is that Surface Book has a "design" flaw. I have stayed with that subject and pointed out over and over again why you are in error.
3. Despite the definition you seem to be laboring with the delusion that a "strawman" is anyone who doesn't agree...
4. No in debate both sides present their views on opposing sides, often times with facts to support the argument but also well versed opinions.

I have stay right with the subject and given my rebuttal of your points one after the other. You have not provided any actual counter points, but instead have been throwing "strawman" out incorrectly.

Let me say it once again. The Surface Book is designed differently than most laptops to serve various purposes. It is only a compromise if you have no need of the extras it's design brings. If all you want and need is a laptop than the Book isn't for you. You tried to make the argument that the Yoga did it better. The Yoga is not better if you want to game for example. It is not better if you want to be able to shed some of the weight in tablet mode as it doesn't separate.

At the end of the day different manufactures have chosen different designs to get the two and one effect. There is no one "right" way to do it as you have continuedly tried to imply. Microsoft created the concept of the two and one to show that there was more to mobile computing than just a laptop. And they have been successful in that endeavor. It doesn't matter to them what design is chosen, theirs, Yoga, or HP, or Asus, etc.

 

[Jaekae]

Thinking of buying a nice PC and Hackintoshing it so I can run Garageband/Logic and be able to plug my usb midi devices and a microphone jack that Apple left out of a PRO machine.

Not even an ethernet port? WIFI is great for surfin' but sometimes you need to connect to the ethernet. (At least I do) HDMI would be nice, and a thunderbolt port...I have external hard drives that need Firewire...and the crumby keyboard. Pro users run software that require the F-keys.

So, can anyone recommend a PC that can replace my beloved Macbook Pro?

Tb3 ports have ethernet and hdmi and firewire..
If yoi hold fn all the F keys come or you can change to have the F keys on as default..

And hackintosh need that you builda customdesktop with only components that has drivers in macOS. So no laptop i would guess

 

[c0ppo]

Tb3 ports have ethernet and hdmi and firewire..

True. But only if you have the right dongle or a right cable. Otherwise, it's just a port you can't use anywhere else besides your own setup.

Guys, no one is disputing TB3. I USE IT everyday! And I love TB3.
Dispute is just in going all in on TB3. 2 TB3 ports would be more then enough. You could still use tb3 as you use it today, but have a fail safe in usb-a/hdmi/sdcard.

If yoi hold fn all the F keys come or you can change to have the F keys on as default..

Those are just function keys, they don't have the same functions as 'old' keys had, and they are still just touch screen keys, and you still have to look away from the screen to use them.

And hackintosh need that you builda customdesktop with only components that has drivers in macOS. So no laptop i would guess

Actually, there are a lot of hackintosh laptops out there as well.

 

[aajeevlin]

I have been thinking to jump. I have a Mac mini 2009, MacBook Pro 2011 and a fixed up Mac Pro 2009 (my primary machine right now). I can certainly afford a new MacBook Pro. However, I feel that the current price on these machines are just ridiculous and the quality seems to have gone down hill. I’m not sure if I can justify buying a MacBook Pro of the same specs as a Lenovo and paying 3x the amount. For now I’m holding off on all purchased. But I’m ready to jump.

I plan to still continue to use my Mac because I do very much still like the ecosystem and the total integration of the Apple system. But that’s not enough for me to want to buy a new machine.

 

[booksbooks]

1.Your opinions are not facts;
2. Your so called position in this discussion is that Surface Book has a "design" flaw. I have stayed with that subject and pointed out over and over again why you are in error.
3. Despite the definition you seem to be laboring with the delusion that a "strawman" is anyone who doesn't agree...
4. No in debate both sides present their views on opposing sides, often times with facts to support the argument but also well versed opinions.

I have stay right with the subject and given my rebuttal of your points one after the other. You have not provided any actual counter points, but instead have been throwing "strawman" out incorrectly.

Let me say it once again. The Surface Book is designed differently than most laptops to serve various purposes. It is only a compromise if you have no need of the extras it's design brings. If all you want and need is a laptop than the Book isn't for you. You tried to make the argument that the Yoga did it better. The Yoga is not better if you want to game for example. It is not better if you want to be able to shed some of the weight in tablet mode as it doesn't separate.

At the end of the day different manufactures have chosen different designs to get the two and one effect. There is no one "right" way to do it as you have continuedly tried to imply. Microsoft created the concept of the two and one to show that there was more to mobile computing than just a laptop. And they have been successful in that endeavor. It doesn't matter to them what design is chosen, theirs, Yoga, or HP, or Asus, etc.

Some Surface Book design compromises. FACT.

• The hinge creates a large bulge and makes the laptop much thicker at the point, also creating a large gap: design compromise.
• The battery life of the tablet is ~half of what leading tablets are: design compromise.
• The screen is thicker and heavier than laptop screens: design compromise.
• The degrees of the freedom of the hinge are relatively limited: design compromise.

 

[Martyimac]

Some Surface Book design compromises. FACT.

• The hinge creates a large bulge and makes the laptop much thicker at the point, also creating a large gap: design compromise.
• The battery life of the tablet is ~half of what leading tablets are: design compromise.
• The screen is thicker and heavier than laptop screens: design compromise.
• The degrees of the freedom of the hinge are relatively limited: design compromise.

I have to agree with the other folks. Just because MS made these design compromises doesn't make the Surface line bad, just different. It's like car folks make changes/compromises in their designs. You either like them or you don't but it doesn't make them bad, just different.
So, sorry to say but @Mendota and the others are winning the debate at this time. At least as far as I am concerned. You need a different tactic other than just stating opinion which is all you are actually doing.

 

[c0ppo]

• The hinge creates a large bulge and makes the laptop much thicker at the point, also creating a large gap: design compromise.

Indeed. True.

• The battery life of the tablet is ~half of what leading tablets are: design compromise.

Thing is, Surface Book ≠ Tablet.
It's 2in1. Of course it won't be the best tablet out there, or even the best laptop. It's aim is to be the best 2in1. And that it is.

As far as battery goes, SB2 battery in laptop mode is way better then any MBP on battery. So is MBP compromised then?

• The screen is thicker and heavier than laptop screens: design compromise.

Why is this a problem? Screen is thicker, so what? Hinge on SB2 is great IMHO. If you want to use it in laptop mode, hinge will hold the screen in place without any issues. So why is the thickness of the screen a problem or a compromise?

• The degrees of the freedom of the hinge are relatively limited: design compromise.

Actually, you can do a lot with 2in1 and with hinge. Even use the screen in 'backwards mode'. How is this a design compromise?

 

[MBAir2010]

I sold a MacBook air 2018 silver at a computer store about 2 hours ago, the lady was going to leave until i spat out how i loved my mba, and these last forever. She was not concerned about the typing defect some macbooks have.
The funny thing was the retarded sales person just stood there listening to my 5 minute apple schpeel taking notes!

 

[Mendota]

Some Surface Book design compromises. FACT.

• The hinge creates a large bulge and makes the laptop much thicker at the point, also creating a large gap: design compromise.
• The battery life of the tablet is ~half of what leading tablets are: design compromise.
• The screen is thicker and heavier than laptop screens: design compromise.
• The degrees of the freedom of the hinge are relatively limited: design compromise.

The battery life is better than most laptops and since it is not just a tablet your point is moot. The screen is thicker because the computer is in the top. The hinge goes back farther than many mainstream laptops just not as far as those such as the Yoga. Again these are not compromises but a different design choice... But you know what. I am not beating this dead horse any longer. You obviously have a deep need to believe what you want and that is your right. I have better things to do. Corel Draw 2019 has just dropped and I need to get it installed on my Book, I have some new sketches in mind.

Go on and give yourself the last word, keep insisting that you are right, I know you need to. But I am moving on and not derailing the thread further.

 

[maflynn]

Some Surface Book design compromises. FACT.

• The hinge creates a large bulge and makes the laptop much thicker at the point, also creating a large gap: design compromise.

Surface Book hinge, its a unique design. Some hate it, others don't. I'm oik with it, I'm neither defending it, or criticizing it. If you don't like it, then that's fine. I disagree with your assessment that's its a design compromise, not when you can easily remove the screen at a touch of a button and use the display as a tablet.

• The battery life of the tablet is ~half of what leading tablets are: design compromise.

Lets compare apples to apples, you cannot say that its a bad tablet because the Surface Book is not a tablet, its a 2 in 1. It works well as a laptop and tablet.
From MS:
Battery Life Up to 17 hours of video playback1

Compare that with Apple's MBP
Battery and Power2

• Up to 10 hours wireless web
• Up to 10 hours iTunes movie playback

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Clearly the SB2 has better battery life.

• The screen is thicker and heavier than laptop screens: design compromise.

Yup, and the MBP is a lot thinner, and we know what's happening there, throttling, flexgate, bad keyboards. I guess, I'd take a few milimeters in thickness if it gets me more durability

• The degrees of the freedom of the hinge are relatively limited: design compromise.

The same exact thing can and is said about the MBP.