Anyone else abandoning ship?

[SDColorado]

Every machine makes design compromises, we all know that we all have to make the choice of which compromises work best for our own individual needs. Apple has made its own compromises by way of a lousy keyboard in the name of thin over function, a gimmicky touch bar, and questionable thermal management.

One of the earlier posts about the Surface Book 2 contained some "cherry-picked" quotes, for the sake of balance and keeping in the spirit of that post....

Here are some quotes about the keyboard:

“the worst product in Apple history” - John Gruber/Daring Fireball
"One of the biggest design screwups in Apple History" - John Gruber/Daring Fireball

"I depend on my laptop to do my job, but Apple's butterfly keyboard has proven to be unreliable. And the same oes for others who own MacBook laptops with the butterfly desin. - Antonio Villas-Boas/Business Insider (without correcting the keyboard generated errors)

"The new Apple keyboard is ruining my life. It's so bad" - Casey Johson/ The Outline

" I am adding my voice to the now sustained chorus of complaints about Apples redesigned Mac keyboard: How very much it sucks. Truly, madly, deeply." - Natasha Lomas/Techcrunch

On the Touchbar:

"If they really wanted to include a touch bar, why not put it above the top row of keys? Why take away a whole row of very useful keys? - Rob Peck

"As usual Microsoft did the "Touch Bar" first, but actually thought better of it." Surar/MSPoweruser

"To use the touch bar, I have to look at it. It’s a slippery glass screen thing with no feedback at all." Alex Rowe/Medium

"I bought my first personal Mac laptop in six years — and I said no to Apple's Touch Bar." Suzie Ochs/iMore

On the computer itself:

'The Touchbar MacBook Pro is a disposable embarrassment" - John Kheit/Mac Observer

"Oh No, The New MacBook Pro is Stupid, and so is the Touch Bar" Alex Rowe/Medium

Just having a little fun... relax Apple Fans, I do still *mostly* like my MBP

 

[MBAir2010]

What i like about apple is I can still use my 2010 products today!

 

[Painter2002]

What i like about apple is I can still use my 2010 products today!

Indeed this was one of the major attractions for the MacBook Pro lineup from 2008-2015. You knew for the most part that a machine made from this period could last you up to 10 years, with little to no issues. Aside from the graphics card issue this was mostly true and a great appeal to owning one of these computers.

The question i think a lot of people on this forum have now for the 2016+ MacBook Pro lineup is will these machines last/fair as well as those earlier models 10 years down the road. With all the issues, keyboard, flexgate, and other issues, we aren’t very reassured that we will be good to keep the computers for that long without an expensive repair.

 

[Thysanoptera]

What i like about apple is I can still use my 2010 products today!

But you can't watch Netflix in full HD on it, even if you have 12 physical cores running at 3.4 GHz, unless you bootcamp into Windows. I still marvel at the internals of cheesegrater Mac Pro (every time I have to swap the GPU with EFI compatible one) and find it hilarious that after 10 years with the right GPU it is still the fastest Mac on the planet in GPU depending tasks, faster than the $15k iMac Pro. But I bet Apple doesn't like it and throws some annoyances along the way every now and then, like being unable to stream DRM'ed content in FHD resolution or messing up the drivers even for otherwise MacOS supported GPUs.

 

[Mendota]

But you can't watch Netflix in full HD on it, even if you have 12 physical cores running at 3.4 GHz, unless you bootcamp into Windows. I still marvel at the internals of cheesegrater Mac Pro (every time I have to swap the GPU with EFI compatible one) and find it hilarious that after 10 years with the right GPU it is still the fastest Mac on the planet in GPU depending tasks, faster than the $15k iMac Pro. But I bet Apple doesn't like it and throws some annoyances along the way every now and then, like being unable to stream DRM'ed content in FHD resolution or messing up the drivers even for otherwise MacOS supported GPUs.

I loved the cheese graters at the universities. They were the bomb!

 

[MBAir2010]

But you can't watch Netflix in full HD on it, even if you have 12 physical cores running at 3.4 GHz, unless you bootcamp into Windows. I still marvel at the internals of cheesegrater Mac Pro (every time I have to swap the GPU with EFI compatible one) and find it hilarious that after 10 years with the right GPU it is still the fastest Mac on the planet in GPU depending tasks, faster than the $15k iMac Pro. But I bet Apple doesn't like it and throws some annoyances along the way every now and then, like being unable to stream DRM'ed content in FHD resolution or messing up the drivers even for otherwise MacOS supported GPUs.

Whats a nexfix? My 2010 macbook air works, my 2010 ipod touch works and they look beauuuuuuutiful!
At the computer store every laptop seemed cheap and ready to board noah’s ark either black or silver black
Apple laptop stood out design wise

 

[Thysanoptera]

Whats a nexfix? My 2010 macbook air works, my 2010 ipod touch works and they look beauuuuuuutiful!
At the computer store every laptop seemed cheap and ready to board noah’s ark either black or silver black
Apple laptop stood out design wise

Yes, there was nothing like it. I still have Powerbook G4, and it is actually in use, running MorphOS, all hardware components are working like they did 14 years ago, including the keyboard. When I use it nowadays I can't help but think every time that you could easily dissipate 150W of heat from this chassis, still looks great and not that bulky even by today's standards.

 

[Novus John]

I switched to Linux/Win10 last year, I needed a decent workstation with Nvidia gpus, on which I could run Linux. So, I switched. It's fine, I didn't pay through the nose for 64gigs of memory and 8 cores and I got to install an Nvidia card for ML and data science work. No serious problems so far. It is worth mentioning that Win10 and Linux have a large variety of GUI and usability problems, but after a while you get used to them and they stop being a problem.

On the other hand, I still have my 13" MacBook Pro (2018), which I use all the time. I still had to buy a thunderbolt 3 dock to make sense of it and the Touch Bar is by far the most useless thing I've ever seen on a laptop, but overall it's not a bad machine, just a very expensive machine that has been compromised by questionable decisions made by Apple; because of the finicky keyboard, nowadays, I always keep a can of compressed air in my office.

 

[MBAir2010]

What is a GUI and iGPU functions or problems?
I know that some chips or computers cant graphic interface with running apps at maximum speeds.
Is that it?

 

[booksbooks]

I have to agree with the other folks. Just because MS made these design compromises doesn't make the Surface line bad, just different. It's like car folks make changes/compromises in their designs. You either like them or you don't but it doesn't make them bad, just different.
So, sorry to say but @Mendota and the others are winning the debate at this time. At least as far as I am concerned. You need a different tactic other than just stating opinion which is all you are actually doing.

I never said that the Surface Book was “bad”. Such a blanket statement.

I point out design compromises in the context of a discussion of why Apple doesn’t do an iOS capable, and/or multi-touch laptop.

So another strawman...
[doublepost=1554000035][/doublepost]

The battery life is better than most laptops and since it is not just a tablet your point is moot. The screen is thicker because the computer is in the top. The hinge goes back farther than many mainstream laptops just not as far as those such as the Yoga. Again these are not compromises but a different design choice... But you know what. I am not beating this dead horse any longer. You obviously have a deep need to believe what you want and that is your right. I have better things to do. Corel Draw 2019 has just dropped and I need to get it installed on my Book, I have some new sketches in mind.

Go on and give yourself the last word, keep insisting that you are right, I know you need to. But I am moving on and not derailing the thread further.

No, the battery life of the tablet is absolutely not moot since it proves my point. It is roughly half the battery life of leading tablets, so as a tablet, its battery life is compromised.

This is why Apple will not make a lawnmower with wings which is effectively what these 2-in-one devices are.

The Surface Book does several things well but as a laptop alone or as a tablet alone, it is compromised.

 

[Martyimac]

I never said that the Surface Book was “bad”. Such a blanket statement.

I point out design compromises in the context of a discussion of why Apple doesn’t do an iOS capable, and/or multi-touch laptop.

So another strawman...

And there you go using the strawman argument again. Your whole post that I quoted literally screams the word "Bad". The syntax and way the comments are used does that. Granted you never "said" bad, but I suspect many folks would see your comments as saying "bad".
So again I say, you need to try a different tactic. OR, you could just accept the fact that some of us don't agree with your opinions, like me.

 

[richinaus]

I loved the cheese graters at the universities. They were the bomb!

they would certainly be a bomb if you dropped one out a plane, given how heavy they were / are

just an aside - I heard from someone who worked in industrial design for a major manufacturer in China, and they told me there was only a certain place those cheese graters could be made due to the aluminium dust and subsequent danger from that to health.
If the Chinese back then thought it was bad, it must have been very bad for health to make them!

 

[booksbooks]

And there you go using the strawman argument again. Your whole post that I quoted literally screams the word "Bad". The syntax and way the comments are used does that. Granted you never "said" bad, but I suspect many folks would see your comments as saying "bad".
So again I say, you need to try a different tactic. OR, you could just accept the fact that some of us don't agree with your opinions, like me.

I am not using any strawmen.

Some Surface Book design compromises. FACT, not opinion.

• The hinge creates a large bulge and makes the laptop much thicker at the point, also creating a large gap: design compromise.
• The battery life of the tablet is ~half of what leading tablets are: design compromise.
• The screen is thicker and heavier than laptop screens: design compromise.
• The degrees of the freedom of the hinge are relatively limited: design compromise.

[doublepost=1554007421][/doublepost]

Every machine makes design compromises, we all know that we all have to make the choice of which compromises work best for our own individual needs. Apple has made its own compromises by way of a lousy keyboard in the name of thin over function, a gimmicky touch bar, and questionable thermal management.

One of the earlier posts about the Surface Book 2 contained some "cherry-picked" quotes, for the sake of balance and keeping in the spirit of that post....

Here are some quotes about the keyboard:

“the worst product in Apple history” - John Gruber/Daring Fireball
"One of the biggest design screwups in Apple History" - John Gruber/Daring Fireball

"I depend on my laptop to do my job, but Apple's butterfly keyboard has proven to be unreliable. And the same oes for others who own MacBook laptops with the butterfly desin. - Antonio Villas-Boas/Business Insider (without correcting the keyboard generated errors)

"The new Apple keyboard is ruining my life. It's so bad" - Casey Johson/ The Outline

" I am adding my voice to the now sustained chorus of complaints about Apples redesigned Mac keyboard: How very much it sucks. Truly, madly, deeply." - Natasha Lomas/Techcrunch

On the Touchbar:

"If they really wanted to include a touch bar, why not put it above the top row of keys? Why take away a whole row of very useful keys? - Rob Peck

"As usual Microsoft did the "Touch Bar" first, but actually thought better of it." Surar/MSPoweruser

"To use the touch bar, I have to look at it. It’s a slippery glass screen thing with no feedback at all." Alex Rowe/Medium

"I bought my first personal Mac laptop in six years — and I said no to Apple's Touch Bar." Suzie Ochs/iMore

On the computer itself:

'The Touchbar MacBook Pro is a disposable embarrassment" - John Kheit/Mac Observer

"Oh No, The New MacBook Pro is Stupid, and so is the Touch Bar" Alex Rowe/Medium

Just having a little fun... relax Apple Fans, I do still *mostly* like my MBP

Cherry picked quotes? Everything is cherry picked. Some people like Apple’s new keyboard. Some people don’t. You are wasting your time because nobody said that Apple didn’t make design compromises either. Because other companies make design compromises doesn’t invalidate Microsoft’s design compromises. The point I was making was that Apple will not make a device like the Surface Book because it resembles a lawnmower with wings. It creates a situation where a device is trying to do too many things, and ends up not doing each of those things the best in its category.

The iPad? The best tablet. Because it has all day battery life, a massive App ecosystem, a simplistic design that is the essence of what a tablet computer is, etc.

The MacBook Pro? Used to be the best laptop until the new ones. And it’s been copied by many, including Microsoft.

What Microsoft has done with the Surface Book is notable in many respects. But it’s trying to do too many things. The tablet is very large for starters. The battery life half that of leading tablets. The software is a half way in between for mouse input and touch input. It doesn’t do touch the best because of this (smaller hit targets; a mix of larger and smaller targets that create a poor experience) so the software is compromised. The hinge creates significant thickness and gaps in the laptop when closed, and it’s designed that way because it has to move the screen away farther from the base to support the high weight screen that is a tablet itself.

I hate the new keyboard on the MBP to the point that today, I have bought two new MacBook Pros (2015 versions) and am right in the middle of installing new fast SSD drives into them. I’m relegating my new MBP to being plugged into a monitor at work. And I’ve never found any value in the touchbar, and the trackpad is stupidly big.

These latter three issues are not design compromises. They are mistakes that Apple made in designing this.

 

[Martyimac]

I am not using any strawmen.

Some Surface Book design compromises. FACT, not opinion.

• The hinge creates a large bulge and makes the laptop much thicker at the point, also creating a large gap: design compromise.
• The battery life of the tablet is ~half of what leading tablets are: design compromise.
• The screen is thicker and heavier than laptop screens: design compromise.
• The degrees of the freedom of the hinge are relatively limited: design compromise.

I see you think repeating yourself makes it true. It's still nothing more than opinion. NOT fact. Opinion.

 

[booksbooks]

I see you think repeating yourself makes it true. It's still nothing more than opinion. NOT fact. Opinion.

Fact. Demonstrate how it’s opinion.

 

[Painter2002]

Fact. Demonstrate how it’s opinion.

Oh lord, another MacBook Pro thread here where people are arguing over fact vs opinion. Unless you have supporting evidence (from Microsoft themselves for example), your design “compromises” are in fact just opinions. All the things you mentioned were things Microsoft could’ve designed differently if they truly wanted to if they had deemed them “compromises” as you said.

It doesn’t make your opinions any less valuable, but trying to label them as facts is in fact incorrect.

 

[richinaus]

I see you think repeating yourself makes it true. It's still nothing more than opinion. NOT fact. Opinion.

I am unsure how you reach the conclusion of his points being opinion rather than fact?

The hinge design increases the depth of the laptop, when closed, in comparison to a traditional laptop, due to the 2:1 format.
The tablet does not have equivalent battery to say an iPad
etc.....

I do like the surface books and think they were a great concept, however when something is absolute fact there is no reason to argue.

I would be arguing with a Lenovo Yoga or something. The C930 is a great design and very tempting indeed, whereas the surface book was great, but needs some refinement now in the hinge department [even though I would 100% agree it looks great when open].
[doublepost=1554008889][/doublepost]

Oh lord, another MacBook Pro thread here where people are arguing over fact vs opinion. Unless you have supporting evidence (from Microsoft themselves for example), your design “compromises” are in fact just opinions. All the things you mentioned were things Microsoft could’ve designed differently if they truly wanted to if they had deemed them “compromises” as you said.

It doesn’t make your opinions any less valuable, but trying to label them as facts is in fact incorrect.

they are compromises in achieving the 2 in 1 design.
[doublepost=1554009092][/doublepost]These discussions on 'compromised design' apply to the current MBP also.

Reduced thickness encouraged the keyboard design, thermal design issues and being glued together [like the surface book].

 

[Martyimac]

Fact. Demonstrate how it’s opinion.

How about you demonstrate how they aren't opinion.

 

[fourthtunz]

I don’t think you understand what this thread is about. We are not windows users who became windows users. We are Mac users who can’t believe we are now windows users. Or we are Mac users who are considering windows.

Also, go to pc sites. They definitely complain about PCs.

Oh I understand the thread, I just don't understand people going to a site to complain about something
they don't use but, no harm, I don't need to understand, evidently you just have more time than i do.

 

[booksbooks]

How about you demonstrate how they aren't opinion.

Demonstrate how they're opinion. They are facts.

The product manager for the Surface said, in relation to why the hinge was designed the way it is... when first unveiling the Surface Book...

"We did it purposely... All that battery... All that energy you need to make it a full clipboard experience..." It balances the weight and distributes it so the device doesn't tip over because the screen, which is a tablet, is relatively heavy.

Another issue is just how big the tablet actually is: 13.5" diagonally. That's a huge tablet: harder to handle.

 

[SweWriter]

Oh I understand the thread, I just don't understand people going to a site to complain about something
they don't use but, no harm, I don't need to understand, evidently you just have more time than i do.

People complaining (sorry, ”commenting”) about others complaining is so meta.

Regardless, people who used macs for ten years, and are now using/considering using Windows 10 is noteable.

 

[richinaus]

People complaining (sorry, ”commenting”) about others complaining is so meta.

Regardless, people who used macs for ten years, and are now using/considering using Windows 10 is noteable.

The whole thread is a rant

The Apple of 10 years ago is not the same company as today. It’s focus has shifted which is why the computers do not suit long time users [such as myself]. Suffice to say I was in boot camp for most of the day today using a windows only app [Lumion for those that know it] and TBH it would be really no big deal at all for me to use Win 10 full time. I just prefer MacOS and the Mac hardware but really give me a pc workstation and I will be productive.

 

[MBAir2010]

is it better to be a strawman or a lyin'?

 

[Martyimac]

Demonstrate how they're opinion. They are facts.

The product manager for the Surface said, in relation to why the hinge was designed the way it is... when first unveiling the Surface Book...

"We did it purposely... All that battery... All that energy you need to make it a full clipboard experience..." It balances the weight and distributes it so the device doesn't tip over because the screen, which is a tablet, is relatively heavy.

Another issue is just how big the tablet actually is: 13.5" diagonally. That's a huge tablet: harder to handle.

Thank you for making the point that I was trying to make, obviously unsuccessfully. Again, thank you.
NOW, back to the general topic of the thread.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Oh I understand the thread, I just don't understand people going to a site to complain about something
they don't use but, no harm, I don't need to understand, evidently you just have more time than i do.

I think the “complaining” in this thread, for most of us, is directly commensurate with amount of love and time spent touting and loving the Mac OS and hardware. I remember defending it to so many people over the oughts and teens. I had to use windows for work, but my real work and joy was using Apple Macs at home.

Apple has taken advantage of that. They have coasted for years in all the wrong directions as they have gotten fat suckling off iPhone sales.

The “complaining” isn’t because we have nothing better to do and all the time in the world. It is in spite of being a writer, artist, programmer, as well as my personal life. No, we are in a state of mourning, and are here to mourn with others. We loved macs that much. It’s a shame that Apple doesn’t share that love.