Anyone else abandoning ship?

[shaunp]

As I type this on my company issued 2017 MBP 15... I backspace to fix the double strikes. I bang harder on the keyboard to get some to type. I constantly have to deal with dongle hell just to do my daily job functions. I don't have the physical keys I need to touch type my way through my job.

I am a HUGE Apple fan. I have been an all in guy for a decade plus. But this is just getting ridiculous. I'm serious considering bouncing off to Linux because M$ is just not an option in my mind. I'm not going back to virus hell. I'm just wondering if I'm alone? Is this part of the plan? Is Apple pushing us to iPad Pros? It just feels like I got a "MacBook Plus" not a "Pro" machine. By that I mean it seems like somebody let a marketing person convince them that they could up sell people out of MacBook with bells and whistles and didn't bother giving a Pro line machine features and function I needed.

Again, I'm not some Windows or Android zealot here to start a flame war. Just a hardcore Apple guy wondering what Apple is thinking these days and if they just aren't that "into" the laptop market anymore?

Serious question, why do you think Windows is virus hell these days? I can't remember the last time I had a virus on a PC, I think it was back in the NT 4 days - that's around 1996-7. I've seen one around 2 years ago but that was down to old servers that hadn't been patched properly and none of the desktops were affected. On a properly maintained PC together with some common sense (don't go downloading stuff from random places and don't go to dodgy websites) and you will be fine. Same goes for all the snooping, turn it off by default and the amount of stuff that get's sent back is virtually nothing. You can view the data been sent to MS and there is nothing identifiable in there and I was surprised as just how little there is.

I have 4 Windows PC's (given up on Mac products since the touchbar MBP was released) and they are all very stable and reliable. Same as the desktop I have to use at work. All of the apps I previously used (with the exception of Apple Messages) work just as well if not better under Windows.

I get the appeal of iCloud and Mac OS together with multiple Apple products, it's great. However if Apple aren't making hardware you like (and they don't seem to be in a hurry to fix stuff) then it's time to move on. There are a lot of good PC laptops and for desktops you can either build one yourself or get one built to your exact specs.

 

[grmlin]

In my experience software that’s available on both platforms tends to run better on windows. With the exception of apps that got ported to windows from Mac. They often don’t run that great.
All in all my windows desktop feels much faster and snappier than my MacBook Pro from 2014. I hope they keep working on the windows UI. That’s not my favorite after the Windows 8 debacle and it still suffers imo

 

[apolloa]

I've used my 10" Samsung Android tablet with a Bluetooth keyboard and mouse like a mini laptop on many occasions. It was useable, but something of an ergonomic pain at times. It will be interesting to see how this develops.

Yeap, but with the iPad being able to connect to a monitor, the ergonomic pain disappears potentially..
As you said will be interesting to see how it develops.

 

[MBAir2010]

I've always been a fan of Apple, but totally relate to this topic. Little bit less than a year ago I finally bought my first Apple pc - macbook pro. Everything's fine, couldn't imagine myself with any other pc, but that keyboard, omg... It's killing me. And I'm not sure what to do, should I just bring it to warranty and tell them to fix the keyboard or what? I'm concerned that they would just give me the new pc, as they do it with iphones when you break the glass, because I don't want refurbished pc.

By all means, bring the MBpro in to get repaired, they are very experienced and by now, used to repairing their products!

 

[shaunp]

I've always been a fan of Apple, but totally relate to this topic. Little bit less than a year ago I finally bought my first Apple pc - macbook pro. Everything's fine, couldn't imagine myself with any other pc, but that keyboard, omg... It's killing me. And I'm not sure what to do, should I just bring it to warranty and tell them to fix the keyboard or what? I'm concerned that they would just give me the new pc, as they do it with iphones when you break the glass, because I don't want refurbished pc.

And be prepared to wipe all the data from your laptop before you send it in as there is no guarantee you will get the same machine back.

I find it incredible that Apple don't have laptops that are more service-friendly like ThinkPads or Latitudes where common parts are easily replaceable. I understand they want to create appliances and have everything closed which is fine for the public (at a push), BUT they use this stuff internally and not having the ability to just swap out a keyboard, RAM or an SSD in a few minutes must hurt them. All corporations over a certain size, of which Apple is one, have internal engineering teams to deal with the high number of laptops and desktops they need to support their operations. I know Apple never listen to the customer, but surely noise coming from their own tech support managers must tell them they have this wrong.

 

[Mendota]

And be prepared to wipe all the data from your laptop before you send it in as there is no guarantee you will get the same machine back.

I find it incredible that Apple don't have laptops that are more service-friendly like ThinkPads or Latitudes where common parts are easily replaceable. I understand they want to create appliances and have everything closed which is fine for the public (at a push), BUT they use this stuff internally and not having the ability to just swap out a keyboard, RAM or an SSD in a few minutes must hurt them. All corporations over a certain size, of which Apple is one, have internal engineering teams to deal with the high number of laptops and desktops they need to support their operations. I know Apple never listen to the customer, but surely noise coming from their own tech support managers must tell them they have this wrong.

My guess, and think I heard this somewhere, but many Apple employees use Windows.

 

[shaunp]

My guess, and think I heard this somewhere, but many Apple employees use Windows.

Wouldn't surprise me if the core business functions run off PCs. Some of the enterprise level apps they will need to run the business just wont' be available on a Mac unless they have written them inhouse. And this is what baffles me about them, if they know they need this to support their business, how do they expect their 'Pro' customers to run off Apple kit given the recent levels of quality.

 

[maflynn]

I find it incredible that Apple don't have laptops that are more service-friendly like ThinkPads

My guess is that philosophically they want consumers to replace and not repair the machines, i.e., disposable products.

 

[09872738]

My guess is that philosophically they want consumers to replace and not repair the machines, i.e., disposable products.

I agree. Wanna see what hypocrisy looks like? Here we go: https://www.apple.com/uk/environment/

 

[PhoneI]

Wouldn't surprise me if the core business functions run off PCs. Some of the enterprise level apps they will need to run the business just wont' be available on a Mac unless they have written them inhouse. And this is what baffles me about them, if they know they need this to support their business, how do they expect their 'Pro' customers to run off Apple kit given the recent levels of quality.

Which apps are you referring to exactly?

 

[Howard2k]

I agree. Wanna see what hypocrisy looks like? Here we go: https://www.apple.com/uk/environment/

Why is it hypocritical?
What is Apple's recovery rate of components and material from old units? And how does that compare to industry norms?

 

[09872738]

Why is it hypocritical?
What is Apple's recovery rate of components and material from old units? And how does that compare to industry norms?

Because bragging around how environmentally friendly their products are while at the same time encouraging (not to say enforcing) people to throw their stuff away as frequently as possible is environmentally as hostile as it gets, irrespective of how the recycling rate is. Throwing stuff away that should be repairable in the first place is nothing but nonsense from an environmental viewpoint, no marketing spin can change that

 

[rawweb]

I haven't been this excited about a laptop since 2012's Retina MacBook Pro. Seriously considering switching. 100% DCI-P3 OLED display, TB-3, SD Card, real keyboard...I can see that dual screen being super useful for touch editing on my resolve video timeline.

https://www.asus.com/Laptops/ZenBook-Pro-Duo-UX581GV/

 

[Howard2k]

Because bragging around how environmentally friendly their products are while at the same time they encourage (not to say enforce) people to throw them away as frequently as possible is environmentally as hostile as it gets, irrespective of how the recycling rate is. Throwing stuff away that should be repairable in the first place is nothing but nonsense, no marketing spin can change that

But they're not encouraging (for enforcing) people to throw them away as frequently as possible.

I know it's a bit absurd to expect an informed discussion on environmental impacts on a forum like this, but sometimes the hyperbole is just astounding.

 

[09872738]

But they're not encouraging (for enforcing) people to throw them away as frequently as possible. .

Yes they do. The Macbook line has non-replacable batteries. Non-upgradable RAM. Non-upgradable SSDs. Once the customer is in need of an upgrade she has no option but to buy new.

They have a "change keyboard" program - but what they do is replace the whole upper case (including battery) because the whole upper case is glued together.
So they deliver a notebook equipped with a keyboard prone to fail; and each time they replace a keyboard they also replace the battery.
Its a worst case scenario environmentally. And don't get me started with "hyperbole", cause its not. Its just a very sober view on the realities of Apple 2019. I wouldn't even mention if they weren't bragging around about how environmentally responsible they are, while the fact is: they aren't, not at all, not even a tiny bit.
If the environment were a factor in their decisions, they wouldn't glue and solder everything together. Clearly, their priority is profits and streamlined production, anything else at best an afterthought

 

[Howard2k]

...while at the same time encouraging (not to say enforcing) people to throw their stuff away as frequently as possible...

But they're not encouraging (for enforcing) people to throw them away as frequently as possible.

Yes they do.

I get it that you're not happy with the non-upgradability, but how many Apple devices have you thrown in the garbage?


EDIT: Actually no need to reply. If you're throwing your old devices in the trash then that's your call. Apple isn't making you do that. You can recycle them through a recycle centre or take them to Apple. Apple isn't making you do that, you're doing that.

 

[09872738]

I get it that you're not happy with the non-upgradability, but how many Apple devices have you thrown in the garbage?


EDIT: Actually no need to reply. If you're throwing your old devices in the trash then that's your call. Apple isn't making you do that. You can recycle them through a recycle centre or take them to Apple. Apple isn't making you do that, you're doing that.

So bringing a device that could still be used to a recycling centre is environmentally friendly how? Agreed, its not as bad as disposing it in a landfill or something.
By the same token its not environmentally friendly, because recycling the thing still costs energy, etc. A part actually will be disposed somewhere nonetheles. Most importantly: if the device in question were upgradable and/or battery replaceable there wouldn't be a requirement of getting rid of the thing in the first place.

Gluing, soldering, etc. just is not environmentally friendly, recycling - at best - just the second best solution. Besides, their habit of gluing is nothing but a marketing decision; so the environment very apparently does not enjoy first priority treatment at Apple. At least the environment loses against marketing.

Again, I wouldn't mention it, if they weren't constantly emphasising their environmental efforts. But that's just a marketing spin, sadly.

 

[Howard2k]

So bringing a device that could still be used to a recycling centre is environmentally friendly how? Agreed, its not as bad as disposing it in a landfill or something.
By the same token its not environmentally friendly, because recycling the thing still costs energy, etc. A part actually will be disposed somewhere nonetheles. Most importantly: if the device in question were upgradable and/or battery replaceable there wouldn't be a requirement of getting rid of the thing in the first place.

Gluing, soldering, etc. just is not environmentally friendly, recycling - at best - just the second best solution. Besides, their habit of gluing is nothing but a marketing decision; so considering the environment very apparently does not enjoy first priority at Apple

See, now we're having a discussion.

You don't have to regularly throw your stuff in the trash. None of my Apple stuff is current gen and Apple isn't knocking on my door asking me to throw it away.

Neither am I not convinced that the recycling movement is a "pure" as many would like to believe. Where there's money to be made... And as you rightly point out, even the best recycling procedures are not perfect.

What would be really interesting to see would be the impact of a Macbook from manufacture to end of life (say 10 years down the road) and then into the trash, vs 10 years down the road and returned to Apple for recycling, vs recycling on the 3 year mark, vs a Lenovo or similar upgradable laptop over time.

I'm sure there are some plusses and minuses to both groups of scenarios. Lenovo are big on recycled plastics, for example. But I don't know that their material recovery is as advanced as Apple's is. Certainly plastic cannot be reused as much as Apple claims can be done with the aluminium alloy they use.

So I'm actually not sure whether Apple's commitment to recycling yields a reduced environmental impact or not. I'm just not willing to say for sure that either is better without seeing some real details.

I just know that it's complicated. I also know that I don't throw away my old Apple stuff at Apple's behest (or at all, actually) and try to recycle it where I can.

 

[09872738]

I agree, I don't throw away my stuff either. E.g. still got 2 Powerbooks sitting around. But - those were upgradeable. Battery user replaceable by just flicking a switch.

Today, situation is different. 2016+ MBPs are all glued. What is a user supposed to do if (or when?) her keyboard fails and warranty is expired? Replacing at own cost is horrendously expensive. What when the battery approaches EOL? Its just not sane to glue everything... you can't even up internal storage.
So yes, clearly Apple prefers customers get rid of their stuff early (compared to, say, 10 years ago) or they just don't care, which is bad both for the user as well as mother earth.

So in that regard, Apple is not one of the good guys. Their marketing narrative of caring about the environment an apparent spin... not encouraging a favourable view on Mr. Cook and his Lieutenants.

 

[Howard2k]

I agree, I don't throw away my stuff either. E.g. still got 2 Powerbooks sitting around. But - those were upgradeable. Battery user replaceable by just flicking a switch.

Today, situation is different. 2016+ MBPs are all glued. What is a user supposed to do if (or when?) her keyboard fails and warranty is expired? Replacing at own cost is horrendously expensive. What when the battery approaches EOL? Its just not sane to glue everything... you can't even up internal storage.
So yes, clearly Apple prefers customers get rid of their stuff early (compared to, say, 10 years ago) or they just don't care, which is bad both for the user as well as mother earth.

So in that regard, Apple is not one of the good guys. Their marketing narrative of caring about the environment an apparent spin... not encouraging a favourable view on Mr. Cook and his Lieutenants.

I think Apple's intent is that this stuff all comes back to them and they can recycle it. Buy it, use it for three years, send it back to Apple. It wouldn't surprise me to see them offering Macbook as a Service at some point.

It could be argued that the lack of repairability then becomes less of an issue to the consumer (assuming Apple has specialized disassembly techniques like they do for iPhone).

I could be totally wrong. I know there are claims of reliability improvements with soldered components etc. My gut feel is that it's a conscious decision by Apple and that's the route they're taking in order to try to capture recurring revenue streams. Ultimately it would lead to consumers shelling out small but consistent dollars to Apple every month for hardware lease and services (iTunes, AppleTV, iCloud). There's got to be a pretty compelling set of dollar signs there.

Apple then gets to claim even stronger recycling statistics too.

 

[MBAir2010]

i'm happy people are expressing their discontent, but sad to read how much faith is lost and their grievances in this company.
the mac mini is on craigslist if that sell, im happy if not i dont care.
the ipad ain't what it used to be, that is next to go!

 

[09872738]

I know there are claims of reliability improvements with soldered components etc.

I don't buy that one second. For one, I never experienced or heard of RAM or SSDs failing because of failed sockets.
On the other hand, Apple does not hesitate to sell Macbooks with poor reliability, now 3 years and counting. They also glue that onto the top case which includes the battery. And if they replace, they replace it with the same design prone to fail.

So if you'd be correct this would mean: They solved a problem where no actual problem ever surfaced (RAM/SSD), at the same time introducing a much worse problem by gluing the keyboard to the top case, and as sugar on top they just replace in case of failure, but with the same flawed design resulting in no persistent fix at all.

So gluing/soldering actually decreased reliability. If reliability of said components actually was their intention - highly doubtful - they massively screwed up, didn't they?

 

[MBAir2010]

Theys should make a new laptop law: "We hereby proclaim that a SSD should never be solder onto the motherboard of any produced laptop, except huawei, they are in their own spectrum, Honor This!"
i guess with ram, that could be embedded.

 

[Mendota]

I haven't been this excited about a laptop since 2012's Retina MacBook Pro. Seriously considering switching. 100% DCI-P3 OLED display, TB-3, SD Card, real keyboard...I can see that dual screen being super useful for touch editing on my resolve video timeline.

https://www.asus.com/Laptops/ZenBook-Pro-Duo-UX581GV/

It does look really good, and it fits one of my most important criteria. It has a stylus with built in digitizer! Might have to pick up this one.

 

[09872738]

Theys should make a new laptop law: "We hereby proclaim that a SSD should never be solder onto the motherboard of any produced laptop, except huawei, they are in their own spectrum, Honor This!"
i guess with ram, that could be embedded.

Well, I guess Apple's lobbying against the right to repair is pretty revealing