Apple Denied Request to Ban Tax Protestors From Its Stores in France

[hagar]

Activists are a cult that are a bunch of sheeps that just protest for the sake of it, morons

Please, explain more.

Please, don’t. The internet is already full of nonsensical posts.

Luckily there are many activists fighting important causes. Not sure if this is one but many activists deserve nothing but respect. Fighting for what you believe in is harder than posting negative things online.

 

[Dave245]

"Loophole in the system" => their secretive deals with Irish Gov't ignored EU regulations. Making their tax avoidance illegal.
Stop telling half-truths as the Cook/Ahrendts characters do. They will be held accountable someday.

You mean Ireland the country who should be free to make any deal they want without the EU sticking it’s nose in? My point is everybody would be doing the same thing if they could, anybody with a good accountant is doing the same thing so let’s not be hypocritical here

 

[Donoban]

No. I’ve always paid my fair share of tax, I’ve paid fair wages.... in all the businesses I’ve been part of. I actively and emphatically look down on those types of people that live in a country and fly into their tax haven country of choice for a few hours a year so they can be classed as residents. I think nothing but the worst for their kind whilst people in our country die of starvation. If you don’t like the govs rules then campaign to vote in another.


Drat I picked the wrong answer.... awkwaaaard.

No offence, I'm calling BS that you didn't try to minimise the amount of tax your business paid.

Only difference is the big end of town can get away with it at a much larger scale.

You can look down on people that do it, but the thing is, that ain't going to change anything.

I think we need to get better at accepting the world the way it is.

Like you said, people are starving today. Where are the protesters? Where is the change coming from? It's not going to come from Government. If you're a business owner, you have a great platform and team to do something about it today.

These people need you.

 

[Chupa Chupa]

On a higher level, Apple's arrogance and hypocrisy towards tax and labor exploitation and their outsmarting of the law is being confronted with more and more resistance worldwide.
The momentum is growing and they should prepare for it. The perceived "loss of sales" you fear is just a rimple in the water

Nah. It's just like when someone goes to sue and there are multiple defendants. The plaintiff always goes for the one with the deepest pockets. Every rational company -- every person --- seeks to pay the least amount of taxes legally required. Tax laws are mega complex and it's true sometimes companies get too cute by half. But it would be insanity for any Fortune 500 company let alone one of the biggest capitalized companies in the world to intentionally and bald-facedly cheat the system.

As for Apple "exploiting" labor, it's consistently rated as one of the best places to work, so there is that. If you are talking about Foxconn factories, that's Foxconn, and again, people use it to attack Apple because it's the biggest, easiest game to spear. But these are the same factories where Sony, Dell, Samsung, Google, Acer, Amazon, HP and so many other electronics companies use to make their hardware. Same employees. Crickets there. I agree China treats it's citizens like crap, but Chinese work laws are why all these companies make their goods in China. It will be good when Apple ramps up U.S. factories again and some of it's products will be made by workers getting a good wage and benefit plan.

 

[Alenore]

People are not allowed to go around defacing property. There's no room for debate here.

Here's an extract from the law in France:
"La destruction, la dégradation ou la détérioration d'un bien appartenant à autrui est punie de deux ans d'emprisonnement et de 30 000 euros d'amende, sauf s'il n'en est résulté qu'un dommage léger.

Le fait de tracer des inscriptions, des signes ou des dessins, sans autorisation préalable, sur les façades, les véhicules, les voies publiques ou le mobilier urbain est puni de 3 750 euros d'amende et d'une peine de travail d'intérêt général lorsqu'il n'en est résulté qu'un dommage léger." https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affi...Texte=LEGITEXT000006070719&dateTexte=20180223

Here's a quick summary: If you write stuff on something without authorization you'll be charged with a fine of 3750€ and have to do public work.

That's right.
Now tell apple to sue the guy who defaced the window, he'll most likely get charged if there's any proof.
However, just because some guy in the crowd of protester do things like that doesn't mean the whole manifestation should be put down.

During any manifestation, agroup of people always shows up with the intent to fight / break things. doesn't mean the whole thing should be forbidden, just that these individuals should be identified and prevented from doing anything illegal in the first place.
[doublepost=1519476185][/doublepost]

You mean Ireland the country who should be free to make any deal they want without the EU sticking it’s nose in? My point is everybody would be doing the same thing if they could, anybody with a good accountant is doing the same thing so let’s not be hypocritical here

Except they're not free to make any deal since they agreed to join the EU, which has laws every member must follow.

 

[RedKite]

No offence, I'm calling BS that you didn't try to minimise the amount of tax your business paid.

Only difference is the big end of town can get away with it at a much larger scale.

You can look down on people that do it, but the thing is, that ain't going to change anything.

I think we need to get better at accepting the world the way it is.

Like you said, people are starving today. Where are the protesters? Where is the change coming from? It's not going to come from Government. If you're a business owner, you have a great platform and team to do something about it today.

These people need you.

Nope. I don't swindle my taxes, don't see any point. I make enough that I'm happy with and having employed creative people I'm well aware of the troubles they face.... so like I said I pay them a fair wage too. We're not huge with just 35 full time employees... just profitable enough for my liking.

It's unhealthy to assume everyone is the same as you. I know looking down on tax cheats won't change anything. Please refer to the point where I said I wanted change? Perhaps other's just aren't as greedy. Perhaps if someone needs to cheat taxes in order to remain in business then they need to rethink their business as it certainly doesn't sound operable.

Where are the protesters? Well here it sounds like you're attempting that bully tactic, so I have some golden words for you.... no matter what positive steps people make there will always be problems. I see this a lot with feminism arguments online. "why are American women protesting against rape culture in the US when women in Saudi Arabia..... blah blah" It's insincerely conceited and boring. People will do what they can. I assume you're not actually interested in the steps I take to help starvation and homelessness in my area.... I donate to foodbanks, run apprenticeship schemes for underemployed and undereducated, my wife donates spare time and food to the local refugee centre. My wife also ran a campaign to get local shops to give unsold produce to local charities some years ago that I'm insanely proud of her for achieving.

I'm not Christian but I was raised in a christian household and never saw the need to be greedy if all is going okay for oneself. YMMV. I know for many, my wife's family especially, that being in poverty can either cause one to become greedy when they finally get what they were after, or become aware that others still have it bad.

I fully understand that it's difficult for others to see beyond their own horizons and that's fine.

 

[Jesse Waugh]

Not relevant, fact is you have freedom of speech in Europe, glad the judge denied Apple's request.

What a joke - there is no freedom of speech in Europe. You can be imprisoned for "inciting" or "denying" -- simply by speaking words. This "protest" in France is the EU grandstanding Apple trying to get what it thinks it deserves in taxes. Those "protesters" are paid stooges. Will the ignorance never end?

 

[Bacillus]

You mean Ireland the country who should be free to make any deal they want without the EU sticking it’s nose in? My point is everybody would be doing the same thing if they could, anybody with a good accountant is doing the same thing so let’s not be hypocritical here

Your sense of reality is that of a 10 years' old. Go live in Yoyoblaba island where nobody pays taxes and can eat bubble gum anyway.

 

[ocnitsa]

The post below explains it perfectly.



----


For all those quoting me on the same post/standpoint, I stick to my opinion, it's different and as long as nothing gets broken it is not vandalism.

You are entitled to your opinions...

I don't know how the law is written there, but the act of "defacement" in some places constitutes vandalism...doesn't matter if the paint is washable. Whether or not the act in the story constitutes vandalism is a matter of the legal definition of vandalism in the location where it happened...but I hear you saying that in your opinion it is not vandalism and that in your opinion Apple deserves what they get (probably up to a point).

 

[gnipgnop]

LOL...MacRumors may have discovered the new formula for getting clicks: cheesy Star Wars photo transformations of Apple executives.

 

[ke-iron]

This is wrong. While the sidewalk belongs to the city Apple is responsible for it. This judge is telling us it’s ok to write on people’s property, partially block the sidewalk and disrupt services because it’s their right to freedom of speech. Utter nonsense. If this judge cannot put his or her personal feelings and separate what is legally and morally right or wrong, he or she should not be a judge.

 

[Dave245]

Except they're not free to make any deal since they agreed to join the EU, which has laws every member must follow.

Fair point I’m just glad we are leaving, when we actually get on with it and leave that is. My original point about all of this tho is that anybody would do the same thing, if you can get away with keeping more of your money you will, anybody with a good accountant is doing the same thing. These people protesting should find something better to do, I find it hypocritical when faced with the same situation they would also be finding ways to avoid paying the full amount of tax.

 

[ocnitsa]

I must have missed where they raised the legal age to drive to 21. In all states it's 14-16 to drive a car with a learner's permit, many require driver's ed until perhaps 18 before applying for the full license. Some states have restrictions on the full license for younger teenagers such as no driving at night without a job or whatever. I don't know of any state where it's 21. Gun buying ages are also state regulated.

Yeah, I think he probably wanted to say 21 to buy a beer.

 

[Bacillus]

Nah. It's just like when someone goes to sue and there are multiple defendants. The plaintiff always goes for the one with the deepest pockets. Every rational company -- every person --- seeks to pay the least amount of taxes legally required. Tax laws are mega complex and it's true sometimes companies get too cute by half. But it would be insanity for any Fortune 500 company let alone one of the biggest capitalized companies in the world to intentionally and bald-facedly cheat the system.
As for Apple "exploiting" labor, it's consistently rated as one of the best places to work......

Kids trying to steal chocolate bars always have their stories and perspectives - that on the longer term don't seem to work.
Says enough about the moral level of Cook & Co.

 

[Garrod]

Please, don’t. The internet is already full of nonsensical posts.

Luckily there are many activists fighting important causes. Not sure if this is one but many activists deserve nothing but respect. Fighting for what you believe in is harder than posting negative things online.

I couldn't agree more. Regarding your first sentence in your reply - you said it far more eloquently than the rant I was tempted to type; someone that can't punctuate or use words correctly calling others 'morons' was going to be my starting point.

 

[Dave245]

Your sense of reality is that of a 10 years' old. Go live in Yoyoblaba island where nobody pays taxes and can eat bubble gum anyway.

My reality is down to earth actually, your telling me that if there was a way you could keep more of your money instead of paying it in taxes you wouldn’t do it? Of course you would and as i’ve said it’s hypocritical to say otherwise.

 

[SoGood]

You have displayed you have little understanding of the law and how Ireland and Apple breached it. Apple and Ireland ARE guilty. If they don’t pay then the EU will punish them, simple really.

You are jumping the gun there unless you have ALL the facts and can be impartial. There’s clear disagreements and then it’s up to the courts to rule on the legality of it all. If what Apple has done is legal, then it’s not their problem. As I see it, the whole issue is one where the law makers know they don’t have a legal case where the laws they oversee have long permitted to encouraged these arrangements, hence all the publicity being generated.

 

[69650]

Apple could be a force for good in the world but they choose to be greedy tax dodgers.

 

[apolloa]

Nah. It's just like when someone goes to sue and there are multiple defendants. The plaintiff always goes for the one with the deepest pockets. Every rational company -- every person --- seeks to pay the least amount of taxes legally required. Tax laws are mega complex and it's true sometimes companies get too cute by half. But it would be insanity for any Fortune 500 company let alone one of the biggest capitalized companies in the world to intentionally and bald-facedly cheat the system.

As for Apple "exploiting" labor, it's consistently rated as one of the best places to work, so there is that. If you are talking about Foxconn factories, that's Foxconn, and again, people use it to attack Apple because it's the biggest, easiest game to spear. But these are the same factories where Sony, Dell, Samsung, Google, Acer, Amazon, HP and so many other electronics companies use to make their hardware. Same employees. Crickets there. I agree China treats it's citizens like crap, but Chinese work laws are why all these companies make their goods in China. It will be good when Apple ramps up U.S. factories again and some of it's products will be made by workers getting a good wage and benefit plan.

You don’t live in Britain then? Because we are sick and tired of these corps dodging taxes. Amazon, Google, Apple, Starbucks, are the American ones NAT stand out and we are sick of paying for the infrastructure they use. You want to have property in a country you pay your taxes then.
Thankfully things are being down to close the loopholes that should never have existed in he first place!
People seem to forget things like, if this corporation doesn’t pay its taxes then someone else will, and normally it’s everyone else.

 

[SoGood]

Except they're not free to make any deal since they agreed to join the EU, which has laws every member must follow.

If Ireland acted illegally, then that’s something Ireland has to sort out with the EU. It’s not Apple’s call on what Ireland does under their EU agreement.

 

[Chupa Chupa]

Kids trying to steal chocolate bars always have their stories and perspectives - that on the longer term don't seem to work.
Says enough about the moral level of Cook & Co.

I'm not sure I understand your analogy. Stealing is a clear violation of the the law in every country and culture. There is nothing illegal about trying to engineer the most favorable tax bill. True, that attempt may be later found to fall on the wrong side of the law, but it's rare that a high profile company intentionally tries to break the law. There is no point to that. It's not like they can go under the radar like individuals that don't even bother to file taxes do.
[doublepost=1519478614][/doublepost]

You don’t live in Britain then? Because we are sick and tired of these corps dodging taxes. Amazon, Google, Apple, Starbucks, are the American ones NAT stand out and we are sick of paying for the infrastructure they use. You want to have property in a country you pay your taxes then.
Thankfully things are being down to close the loopholes that should never have existed in he first place!
People seem to forget things like, if this corporation doesn’t pay its taxes then someone else will, and normally it’s everyone else.

You are talking about loopholes, not intentional refusal to pay taxes due. Who established those loopholes? Your parliament or did Amazon, Google, Apple, somehow get a vote in your country to set tax policy?

U.S. tax policy is riddled with loopholes too. They are called loopholes for a reason. They might smell, they might actually have a good purpose, but they are the law.

 

[9081094]

Paint which can easily be removed by washing the windows is not "vandalising".



Erm, no.

Anyway, im offering Apple to clean those windows for a billion.

 

[manu chao]

I must have missed where they raised the legal age to drive to 21. In all states it's 14-16 to drive a car with a learner's permit, many require driver's ed until perhaps 18 before applying for the full license. Some states have restrictions on the full license for younger teenagers such as no driving at night without a job or whatever. I don't know of any state where it's 21. Gun buying ages are also state regulated.

I think bladerunner confused this with the right to buy alcohol (which requires you to be 21 in quite a number of states in the U.S.).

 

[9081094]

I’m somewhat torn here; but the comments that are “well serves Apple right! They should pay their taxes!” Kind if bug me. In my humble, narrow-minded opinion, there’s not a single person, liberal or conservative, that wouldn’t take a tax loophole if offered to them. Apple has a lot of money and can pay for really smart people to search for loopholes and you can’t tell me if someone said to you “hey I can lower your tax liability by 75% and it’s totally legal” you wouldn’t take it.

I say the law needs to be fixed more than anything.

Normally I would agree with you. It’s natural to find ways to pay as less as possible on tax. But for a company that’s so loudly politically active, it’s hypocritical. Can’t think otherwise.

 

[manu chao]

It states there’s no vandalism.

I am not 100% sure that the photo and the court decision refer to the same event (but I might have missed that).

I’m not sure though if protest is warranted in this case. Apple was convicted and needs to pay the missing tax. So if there’s already a conviction why protest?

Apple is still appealing the decision that ordered it to pay. So this protest could be understood as asking Apple to withdraw that appeal. In a wider sense it could be seen as trying to force Apple to not use (legal) loopholes that save them a lot of tax in general. Of course, what is a loophole and what is just plain normal law is almost by its nature a disputed topic.