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we don't know that he did or not. You're right, but apparently the assumption he's making is that the quantum of new subscriptions will be small compared to the $60 discount charge on every single iPhone and Apple TV sold.

Apple won't be able to take a $60 charge out of every device sold.

In countries where there is no Apple TV+ service then they aren't providing it. so can't charge for it.

the 1 year offer expires 3 months after product is activated. For the people who don't claim it. They can't charge for it long term.

some folks won't be able to claim it. ( only one subscription on a family plan).

I still haven't seen what the nitty gritty terms on "stacking" these few trails but if can't that is another stack of devices which will never create a claim for service so Apple can't charge for ( that pot o money gets assigned to another 'freebie" service or just to the Scrooge McDuck money pit) .

Not saying it isn't a substantial sum they'll be shifting. But it won't be 'every device sold'. Which is probably a substantive part of what Apple is talking about. (in part that he is way overcounting. )
 
Ouch I bet Apple is feeling a little stung from Goldman Sachs slapping them a little bit.

Yeah well - it is a bit ridiculous. It was timed out so well - great day to release their propaganda.

But that's the stock market I guess. I made a killing on Sept 20th 220 options, but I bet a lot of "shorts" got stuck this week and needed a little help from GS. My prediction is that Monday or Tuesday we see more AAPL rally to the upside. In part because of the iPhone brisk sales, but also because Apple's refute will sink in and take effect.

Just imagine if you could play this Yo-Yo AAPL action with perfect timing and precision. It is such horse bananas, but wow
 
That analyst is clueless. He has no idea how powerful, how entrapping and addicting the Apple Ecosystem is. Once Apple customers get sucked into the Apple Ecosystem, it's very difficult to bail out. And often it starts with a Free Trial. Remember all the clueless analysts that said Apple Music would fail? That it would never ever compete or catch up to Spotify etc? LOL

Apple Music also started with free trials.

To be fair, there's way more music available on Apple Music than content on Apple TV+. And people tend to listen to music and the same stuff more often too. There are just more opportunities for listening to music. I listen to music in the morning while getting ready for work, while eating breakfast, while in the car, sometimes while at work, during lunch break, when I'm out running, etc.

How many times do people re-watch a movie or tv show? Not very often compared to music, and it requires constant attention to do so, whereas music can just be playing in the background (coffee shop, bar, restaurant, elevator, retail store, etc.). That's why Apple Music is successful.

Also, Apple News+ hasn't been very well received last I saw.

But yeah, the analyst call is dumb.
 
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That analyst is clueless. He has no idea how powerful, how entrapping and addicting the Apple Ecosystem is. Once Apple customers get sucked into the Apple Ecosystem, it's very difficult to bail out. And often it starts with a Free Trial. Remember all the clueless analysts that said Apple Music would fail? That it would never ever compete or catch up to Spotify etc? LOL

Apple Music also started with free trials.


Apple Music wasn’t given away for an entire year. I am betting most like me will drop it after the year. Had I not gotten the free year with the 11 I wouldn’t even consider Apple TV +
 
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Apple’s move was brilliant. Analyst is completely clueless.
Either an incompetent one or something is going on between GS and Apple that prompted GS to try and “hurt” Apple stock to leverage something else (would be a dangerous move)
 
THIS.

I pay currently:

$9.99 iCloud Family Storage
$10.71 AppleCare+ My iPhone
$10.71 AppleCare+ Wife iPhone
$16.08 Apple Music
$10.71 Apple News

And I will get Appletv+ for another $4.99 plus tax. I will never get Apple Arcade but that would be another charge.

Even if you don't cut the price that much can you at least bundle it into one charge? It's getting ridiculous.

And pay with Apple Card and get 3% cash back.
 
Does anyone know how I can get Disney+ to watch the Star Wars series in Nov. I only have Comcast cable, do I need to order an Apple TV?
 
It's not that often that my professional expertise is relevant on this forum but, let me offer some insight into what is going on here - Revenue Recognition, Bundles, and Multi-Element Arrangements.

To the customer, the service is being offered as free however from an accounting perspective Apple is combining two products into a single hardware + software revenue contract where one of the products is being discounted at 100%. Since this product has standalone value (something called SSP under ASC 606) Apple needs to apply an accounting policy that appropriately estimates how much recurring revenue uplift they will receive from people continuing to use AppleTV+ after the free trial..

What the analyst is concerned about is Apple taking the full $60 and moving it from hardware to services and overstating how much of their revenue growth is coming from selling new services (analysts prefer subscription services growth since it's recurring - so this number accelerating is beneficial to a company).

What is important to note here is that in Jan 2018 the way that every public company reports their revenue numbers changed under new regulation known as ASC 606. Companies, analysts, and auditors still have different opinions on how the principals of this new standard should be applied so disagreements like this have been really common over the past year and will continue to be for a few years. To put it another way.. the bugs are still being worked out with how companies recognize revenue.

Here are some good articles for people who would like more information:

https://www.accountingtoday.com/opinion/welcome-to-year-one-of-asc-606

https://www.investors.com/news/tech...oking-revenue-faster-could-shake-up-earnings/

https://www.accountingtoday.com/new...ouble-from-fasbs-revenue-recognition-standard

thanks.
really well said. and the links you included were very explanatory.

there was (and now again, is) also a kind of similar event going on. not services, but hardware.
in the early days of iPhone (maybe 2008 or 2009?) there was some piece of internal hardware included in the iPhone that was not being "turned on" (yet).
and the discussion was about how to handle this from an accounting perspective, as it was likely that apple at some future date would in fact simply make a software adjustment to turn on this functionality.
and at that time, apple decided to change accounting practices to a way to defer a part of the initial sales that could be attributable to that piece of hardware.
this method of deferring sales to a later, even recurring, was heavily opposed by the securities analysts at the time (!).
but, in fact, GAAP really forced apple to account for it this way.

now there is the most the recent rumor with iPhone 11 that there may be wireless recharging capability already inside the iPhone 11, but simply not ready to be used without necessary software to access that feature.
we will never ever see how apple is attributing revenue from this hardware, but if we could, we would know if apple is intending to turn on that feature at some point for these iPhones that have that hardware.

one additional point about the GS analyst's final conclusion that the apple TV+ subscription model would have such a huge negative impact on APPL:
the analyst was actually using standard GAAP accounting practices as a large part of his reason to downgrade his forecast very very heavily.
in fact, to make that large of a downgrade assertion/calculation, the analyst at the same time is also saying that this particular "bundling" of hardware+services somehow will yield potentially less benefits to apple's total sales and profitability.
other analysts would mention this GAAP accounting practice, and move on, saying it was a net change overall at worst.
 
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Also, add up all iPad, iPhone, AppleTV and Mac purchases going forward and thats how many subscribers Apple can claim for AppleTV+. Makes numbers look really good when compared to other streaming services, sure to drive serious ad revenue.

Apple has advertised this scheme as ad free. Is it your opinion that apple is running a bait and switch scheme?
 
Ouch they just bit themselves in the arse. Apple will ditch them in a few years once the Apple Card customer loyalty has build up. Apple will open their own bank and the reliable paying customers with Apple Cards will be switched over to apples own internal bank.
 
Goldman is not accusing Apple of improper accounting but believes that hardware profit margins will suffer as a result of this TV+ free trial and investors will react negatively.

Hall explained that Apple has taken “a very similar approach” to its accounting methods before, for so-called embedded services such as Apple Maps and its Siri artificial assistant. The Goldman analyst expects the free trial TV+ revenue will add 25% to Apple’s gross margin contribution, which, due to the lower product revenue, will result “in a negative calculated impact to EPS of 16%” for fiscal first quarter 2020, Hall said.

“We currently assume this is an introductory offer that runs for just one year. Should it run longer our out year forecasts would also likely need to be adjusted in a similar way,” Hall added.

Here’s an example of how Hall expects Apple’s accounting will work in this instance. You buy a new iPhone 11 Pro for $1,000 (Hall rounded the $999 price to make the example easier). Apple accounts for the purchase as a bundle, as you’re getting an iPhone 11 Pro and and a year of TV+, valued at $1,060. But the $60 discount for TV+ “is not solely apportioned to the TV+ revenue,” Hall said, and Apple instead proportionally divides the discount to both.

Hall believes the combined discount is 5.7%, or $60 divided by $1,060. Applied to the bundle, the iPhone is discounted to $943.40 (or 94.3% of $1000) and TV+ annual price discounted to $56.60 (or 94.3% of $60). As a result, and assuming the iPhone is not bought with an installment plan, Hall found that, while the iPhone has a lower average price, it also comes at a lower profit to Apple because the cost of goods is not affected by the company’s discount. However, at the same time, Hall expects the discounted TV+ revenue will be credited as “deferred revenue” and then “recognized on a monthly basis over the 12-month trial period,” he said


taken from https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/13/gol...ok-for-apple-predicts-26percent-downside.html

The guy has a valid argument :)
If we only read first before...
 
That analyst is clueless. He has no idea how powerful, how entrapping and addicting the Apple Ecosystem is. Once Apple customers get sucked into the Apple Ecosystem, it's very difficult to bail out. And often it starts with a Free Trial. Remember all the clueless analysts that said Apple Music would fail? That it would never ever compete or catch up to Spotify etc? LOL

Apple Music also started with free trials.
Apple is very smart. This is long run business.
 
It makes sense to start so low. I don’t remember how much Netflix started with but it was much lower compared to today.
 
It's not that often that my professional expertise is relevant on this forum but, let me offer some insight into what is going on here - Revenue Recognition, Bundles, and Multi-Element Arrangements.

To the customer, the service is being offered as free however from an accounting perspective Apple is combining two products into a single hardware + software revenue contract where one of the products is being discounted at 100%. Since this product has standalone value (something called SSP under ASC 606) Apple needs to apply an accounting policy that appropriately estimates how much recurring revenue uplift they will receive from people continuing to use AppleTV+ after the free trial..

What the analyst is concerned about is Apple taking the full $60 and moving it from hardware to services and overstating how much of their revenue growth is coming from selling new services (analysts prefer subscription services growth since it's recurring - so this number accelerating is beneficial to a company).

What is important to note here is that in Jan 2018 the way that every public company reports their revenue numbers changed under new regulation known as ASC 606. Companies, analysts, and auditors still have different opinions on how the principals of this new standard should be applied so disagreements like this have been really common over the past year and will continue to be for a few years. To put it another way.. the bugs are still being worked out with how companies recognize revenue.

Here are some good articles for people who would like more information:

https://www.accountingtoday.com/opinion/welcome-to-year-one-of-asc-606

https://www.investors.com/news/tech...oking-revenue-faster-could-shake-up-earnings/

https://www.accountingtoday.com/new...ouble-from-fasbs-revenue-recognition-standard

Thank you for taking your time to share this with the rest of us in a way that’s easy to understand and without destructive criticism. :)
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You clearly have zero understanding of what a sell-side research analyst does (or is). The opinions of research analysts are protected by law as their function is to provide advice to institutional investors. This, of course, presents an inherent conflict between the investment banking side of the business (which would love to have the sell-side research analysts only publish positive opinions) and the research side of the business, which is supposed to provide advice without being influenced by investment bankers. The two sides are not even allowed to speak to one another without a compliance chaperone strictly monitoring the conversations.
This is why so many people lost money and their homes in 2007-2009... because they listened all the over-optimistic opinions from these analysts who were swearing the Housing market was going to keep booming for a long time.
That’s why I take their opinions with a grain of salt.
 
Impact earnings when it didn’t even exist and doesn’t exist until November? Apple will more than make up for a free year with all of the devices they’re going to sell. In addition the likelihood of customers renewing their sub after a year is high if the content is good due to the low price.

Apple’s lineup is much better than last year. $50 off the base 11, just $600 for the XR and a bigger 10.2” base iPad and iPhone 8 for $329. Lots of value for those that don’t need the current flagships.
 
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Impact earnings when it didn’t even exist and doesn’t exist until November? Apple will more than make up for a free year with all of the devices they’re going to sell. In addition the likelihood of customers renewing their sub after a year is high if the content is good due to the low price.
So the ball is at Apple’s court. I they play it right by providing high quality content, we have know who will win.
 
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