Apple Executive Greg Joswiak Dismisses Planned Obsolescence as 'Craziest Thinking in the World'

[Abazigal]

Don’t buy it.

Apple is a huge corporation with a fairly small amount of supported hardware compared to other OS’s. Apple is the only company that can’t support their computers for more than seven years. Doesn’t add up.

In this case, Apple is dropping support for Macs that don't support Metal apis.

Just like how iOS 11 dropped support for iOS devices that don't sport 64-bit processors, while iOS 12 continues to support those that do.

Could Apple invest the extra resources to support older hardware that don't meet certain criteria? Sure, but past a certain point, it's just a stay of execution, especially when it doesn't support your long-term development roadmap.

There is no conspiracy here.

 

[Substance90]

Supporting a device from 2013 shouldn't be a reason to be proud, that should be expected. It might be an accomplishment when comparing to Android but that's a very low bar to choose. The latest versions of Windows and most Linux distros for example work on archaic hardware. 2013 is like yesterday.

 

[BladeRunner95]

Pretty sure the European Commission will not agree with Apple on this. They need money badly, and wealthy US tech firms are firmly in their sights at the moment, so this is just the sort of thing they need as a reason for a huge fine. Of course Apple will be in full denial mode.

They're currently trying to nail Google for $11bn for 'abusing its dominance through Android', trying to reclaim $15bn from Apple already in back taxes, but more will be coming.

Not necessarily saying I agree or disagree with this, but when it comes to planned obsolescence - this isn't even up for debate. Whenever I upgrade older phones to a new IOS the menu's become super laggy and jerky. This usually lasts a month or so until an IOS with 'bug fixes' comes out to sort this, but I've been out and purchased a newer model iPhone at least once as a result of this (which obviously is the intention). Remains to be seen if they'll risk doing this in IOS 12 with there being so much focus on this now.

 

[[AUT] Thomas]

Your line of thinking doesn't make sense. People want smaller, thinner devices and part of doing that is making things as compact as possible. Look at TVs, there are very few user serviceable parts these days on them and people aren't complaining about that. Notebooks go the same way. You want thin, fast and light, you have to work to get most of the stuff on one board, not spread throughout.

There's only so much space to fit stuff and I'd rather take performance over a slower system that is user serviceable.

What if I told you that the one doesn't prevent the other? It's just about proper design -which Apple certainly is capable of.
I'm not talking about the logic board here. It's 99% about the battery & screens on phones and battery, memory, storage on laptops. By the latter I mean devices that certainly have enough space to accomodate RAM-slots and a connector for an SSD. Also, glueing in the battery is d**k move by Apple. There's no benefit whatsoever by using (ridicoulous amounts of) adhesives on the battery except planned absolescence. Even on the 12" why glue the battey over a large surface? They should use only the minimum amount of adhesive (if it has to be adhesive). By that the battery could be safely replaced (or removed for recycling) in a few minutes.

Frankly, I'm still waiting for some EU regulation on recycling that prevents exactly that kind of design.

 

[Sevendaymelee]

I don't believe this at all because of one sticking point. Ever try using a 4S with iOS 9 installed? Yeah, it's almost unusable. Now, certainly the people at Apple had to have known that iOS 7 and up was going to cripple the phone because they fully tested it before hand. Yet, did they do anything about it? No? Then... folks... that's all the proof you need.

Apple should be forced into making a "lite" version of iOS for old devices or letting people revert. If they won't, the federal government should step in and force them to. At the very least, it should be a law that before you update your older device, you get a massive warning saying it will slow down the phone and make it harder to use.

 

[recoil80]

Considering the focus on supporting the same devices with iOS 12 and trying to debunk the claim of planned obsolescence, why not do the same with MacOS? I understand the apps ported over from iOS require Metal and wouldn't run on 2011 Macs, but the rest of the OS can be made to work on OpenGL.

I see your point, but Macs and iOS devices are quite different.
Having the latest iOS version on an iPhone or iPad is really important since many apps take advantage of the latest API and you may miss important updates or not be able to install an app at all. That's because iOS is a relative young platform, each year important API are released and it is important to be on the latest version.
You don't have a similar problem on a Mac, your apps will continue to be fine on Sierra or High Sierra unless they need some of the new stuff. And I guess many people still have 32bit stuff, so staying on HS is even better.

I have a mid 2011 iMac and in fact I may have problems next year because I'm an app developer, I need Xcode and a future version of Xcode 10 may require Mojave. At that point my company will have to buy a new iMac, but after 7 years I think it isn't a problem at all, one of our web developers will have my old iMac and use it for at least another couple of years.
I think the support is still great, of course I wouldn't have said no to another year of support for my iMac but 7 years is a good amount of time

 

[asiga]

"If we only wanted you to buy new hardware, we would only have updates that support like six percent of our users," he joked.

Really? And how on Earth would you convince users of older devices to buy new hardware if they keep the original OS version that shipped with their devices and that runs blazingly fast?

This article has the highest number of lies per row that I've seen from Apple in my whole life. The number of lies is so high that they even confused theirselves and got that last joke with its meaning reversed.

Now, let's fix that joke for them: "If we only wanted you to buy new hardware, we would force you into newer updates even if you don't want to update". But, oops, that's not a joke because that's exactly what they're doing, so no wonder they got their own minds confused at the end of the interview.

 

[jonnysods]

Please stop with the complaints about old Macs not working with Mojave. Think about this, Snow Leopard, released in 2009, only supported Apple computers from 2006 and above. At that time, that meant only computers released in the last 3 years were supported. The 2009 and 2010 computers are actually, however hard it may be to believe, actually getting old. Next year is 2019, 10 years since 2009. After a while, things have to stop being supported. Thats why the iPhone 3GS isn't getting iOS 12, it just won't. Now, I'm sure that the top of the line, MacBook Pro from 2011 can run Mojave, but the lower ones can't. And apples not going to say, "If you got the most expensive MBP in 2011, you still get updates. Thats Just absurd. Why isn't the G1 still supporting the newest version of Android? Just stop. High Sierra will still be supported for at least the next 5 years, its fine. Most of the MacBooks I see at school and work places are still running Mavericks or El Capitan. And, they run it just fine. And Mavericks was released 5 years ago. But most apps still support it.

It only supported up until 2006 because it was for Intel chips only, but I see your point.

I have a 2010 iMac and I'm honestly fine with Mojave not running it. Make it for Metal computers only and squeeze every drop of power from newer machines. I have a 2016 mbp so no complaints here!

 

[chrono1081]

Your mind seems to have become Jonified in a serious manner

No, I'm just someone who works in tech and follows it closely that's all.
[doublepost=1528366040][/doublepost]

One more year of OpenGL support before next year's MacOS release goes Metal-only is not an unreasonable request. As I said earlier in this thread, one more year can make a big difference.

Deprecated doesn't mean non-functioning, it means no further updates and that it could (and usually is) removed in a future release. It doesn't mean the next release, just a future release. It doesn't mean a year from now at all. Developers have had 4 years to get used to Metal so it's not unreasonable on Apples part.

 

[sir1963nz]

Your line of thinking doesn't make sense. People want smaller, thinner devices and part of doing that is making things as compact as possible. Look at TVs, there are very few user serviceable parts these days on them and people aren't complaining about that. Notebooks go the same way. You want thin, fast and light, you have to work to get most of the stuff on one board, not spread throughout.

There's only so much space to fit stuff and I'd rather take performance over a slower system that is user serviceable.

I DONT want thinner !
What I want is a decent keyboard and a longer battery life. I want USB ports, ethernet port, SD card slot.
I want a laptop that in 12 months time I can upgrade the RAM or SSD and not be forced to buy a maxed out machine from the start or buy a new machine when my needs have changed.

My Current MBP is from early 2011. I upped the RAM myself to 16GB, I replaced the old slow HD with an SSD all at a cost of a damn sight less than Apple would charge.

Apples new keyboard is horrid.

Apple no longer makes a computer that I would be interested in, and thats sad.
I will be looking at a hackintosh , but I suspect in 10.15 you will need to have Apples propriety security chip to run so I am more likely to be heading to Linux.

Apples slow abandonment of OSX Server is obvious, so for my needs at home a Mac Mini running OSX server will need to be the same Mac Mini now running Linux.

I manage a couple of hundred Macs at work and I am having to plan an exit strategy. Apple does not allow for their OS to run on non Apple hardware, so using a VDI that can be spun up for a few months to do some high end number crunching is all Linux based now, I can get a 16 core Ubuntu VDI with 256GB of ram and 10TB of storage for just a few months if I need it almost overnight. With 10Gb ethernet its feasible to directly connect Mass Spectrometers, DNA Analysers, Bioinformatics data sources etc etc directly with these VDI based machines. We are already doing this for Graphics intensive work.

So we are slowly shifting users from Mac dependant software over to Windows and Linux.

The Mac Pro is still ages away, the mac mini too and the iMacs are just too closed. Even when these products come out, Apple is still just skating to where the puck was. For big business, universities, high end users the reality will be a long way away from Apples vision.

 

[AnthonyHarris]

You might have been able to apply these things to Apple a few years ago when they were making all plastic products, but they now have some of the most recyclable machines on the market. They also have a recycling programme and will take your computer from you and deal with it properly. The fact that somebody somewhere will probably BUY your computer and keep using it for years to come has also obviously bypassed you.

Take your arguments of waste and the poor suffering because of it to the YouTubers that buy new products and smash them up. They are the ones that don't know the value of what they own or the repercussions of their pointless destruction.

I do too; however that new stuff is building up waste in other countries and polluting land and water. And causing health and other issues for people worldwide. This isn't ecology bull, it's the truth and at some point everyone, in particular the privileged, need to take this into consideration. We need to develop a more sustainable business model, particularly in the IT industry and I would hope Apple would take the lead (as they have in so many areas like privacy). There are only so many TV's a person needs in their possession, and the same for computers, smartphones, etc. Everyone person having 10 models + of each of these items in a lifetime, with little to no recycling, and that for the majority of the people on the planet is not sustainable.

 

[Cloudane]

"If we only wanted you to buy new hardware, we would only have updates that support like six percent of our users," he joked.

#rekt

Well, it's a little different in that Android has multiple manufacturers. The nearest analogy would be "we would only have updates going back 2 years" per the Pixel, or "we wouldn't release updates at all, just empty promises", per the Lenovo phones.

 

[WhiteHawk]

That 95% satisfaction rating for iOS 11 though, who were you asking?

 

[_Refurbished_]

In this case, Apple is dropping support for Macs that don't support Metal apis.

Just like how iOS 11 dropped support for iOS devices that don't sport 64-bit processors, while iOS 12 continues to support those that do.

Could Apple invest the extra resources to support older hardware that don't meet certain criteria? Sure, but past a certain point, it's just a stay of execution, especially when it doesn't support your long-term development roadmap.

There is no conspiracy here.

There may not be a conspiracy, but there is a ryrhmic pattern.

Mojave is an exception due to Metal, as I may have mentioned earlier in the thread (definitely did in another). It also makes sense to flesh out Metal in the year they would be dropping support for non-metal GPUs. Even though Metal support is required, based on history, the dropped Macs would have been dropped regardless.

Apple gives an end life to support for all of their computers (average of 7 years). I don’t necessarily think it’s too short of a time to support a product, as you’ll still get a few years of productive usage after its expiration date.

It is clear, however, that they choose to drop support for specific products, rather than the products not being capable of support.

 

[AnthonyHarris]

The software that Apple push to older devices is essentially a 'lite' version and for the most part the phones that are supported run perfectly well. My iPhone 5s was just as good on iOS 11 last year. I've since bought a 6s, which has also been absolutely fine. I had a 4 and 5, and don't remember either of them being particularly crippled by later iOS updates either... Perhaps my perception of speed is different to younger generations. I remember when I used to have to wait for the modem to dial out before I could use the internet and it would take about five hours to download a 4 minute song.

I don't believe this at all because of one sticking point. Ever try using a 4S with iOS 9 installed? Yeah, it's almost unusable. Now, certainly the people at Apple had to have known that iOS 7 and up was going to cripple the phone because they fully tested it before hand. Yet, did they do anything about it? No? Then... folks... that's all the proof you need.

Apple should be forced into making a "lite" version of iOS for old devices or letting people revert. If they won't, the federal government should step in and force them to. At the very least, it should be a law that before you update your older device, you get a massive warning saying it will slow down the phone and make it harder to use.

 

[kaloangel]

So that's why batteries have 400 cycles, oleophobic coatings last a year and all repairs at the Apple Store have a 2000% markup!

 

[I7guy]

All 3 have been hacked to run on the newer chips with fully functioning updates. So unofficially you can.

“Hacked”? You proved my point. Thank you.

 

[Wanted797]

What a JOKE! Lmao

After almost everyone’s MacBook is now shot cause of mojave coming in the fall 2011 and below

Well that was 7 years ago, go find a windows pc still working and try put windows 10 on it.

 

[I7guy]

IDK, I was referring to the outcry in the iOS 11 time. Haven't heard complaints before that.

The password cracking is not a flaw in the software. It's the way it's designed. 4-6 decimal digits isn't enough entropy, and no kind of auth mechanism or hardware can secure that. I don't blame Apple for it cause it's good enough for most people, but they falsely indicated that it was uncrackable. Tim Cook incorrectly called devices that crack it "backdoors."

He might have called the devices backdoors to avoid an additional extended conversation about why.

 

[Wanted797]

Oh how I miss the old macrumors commenters. (Where did you go?)

He was spot on with that comment near the end, if Apple wanted you to update they’d have said iOS 12 is only supported on iPhone 6s and later.

As the the Macs. I have a 2011 MBP. That is 7 years old! 7!! It’s been used for two degrees and two jobs in that time, cost $1500(aud). My previous windows PC cost about the same and was lucky to last 2 years.

 

[I7guy]

The software that Apple push to older devices is essentially a 'lite' version and for the most part the phones that are supported run perfectly well. My iPhone 5s was just as good on iOS 11 last year. I've since bought a 6s, which has also been absolutely fine. I had a 4 and 5, and don't remember either of them being particularly crippled by later iOS updates either... Perhaps my perception of speed is different to younger generations. I remember when I used to have to wait for the modem to dial out before I could use the internet and it would take about five hours to download a 4 minute song.

Perception of speed is relative. One person’s fast is another person’s drive line a granny.( go granny go). Some people claim to feel a millisecond difference in response...I don’t know how those people drive in traffic.

 

[Winter Charm]

Those devices are 7+ years old. hardware has come a long way since then. GPU's that old literally do not support features of Metal nor can they effectively run Metal, or Vulkan, or DX12.

 

[Aeiou321]

Apple: Consumers have always known that batteries are consumable parts.

Also Apple: We glue the batteries onto the top case of our MacBook Pros and inside our iPhones that are practically welded shut.

Also Apple: Even though we glue batteries to the casing of our products, we're eco-friendly because somewhere there's a robot named Liam

Have you ever actually tried to replace a battery in an iPhone? Takes me about 15 min. Hardly “welded shut.”

 

[Sunshoopa]

Oh how I miss the old macrumors commenters. (Where did you go?)

He was spot on with that comment near the end, if Apple wanted you to update they’d have said iOS 12 is only supported on iPhone 6s and later.

As the the Macs. I have a 2011 MBP. That is 7 years old! 7!! It’s been used for two degrees and two jobs in that time, cost $1500(aud). My previous windows PC cost about the same and was lucky to last 2 years.

I still have a custom built desktop PC with no new added parts from 2008 that runs Windows 10 fine. What brand was yours if you don’t mind me asking?

If they improve the speed on older iOS devices, I’m not complaining!

 

[Frantisekj]

Yes joke. Why it was enough to invest 10 bucks to newer wifi card and my 2008 Macbook Pro is running High Sierra fine? But can not be installed with original installer but via hack?

If there would be willingness to support older hardware as it is possible, then they would check hw configuration not machine ID. And even suggest upgrade option.

PS: Macbook is upgraded with SSD drive, that is important as well. Works like champ.
And what is even more important is that this fixed faulty USB drivers of OS X 10.11 that Apple never fixed even it was last supported system on my machine. High Sierra does not have that problem.