Apple Executive Greg Joswiak Dismisses Planned Obsolescence as 'Craziest Thinking in the World'

[Altis]

That's interesting. I have a 4s running iOS 9, and I have a 6+ running iOS 11, and they both run perfectly fine.
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RAM that is soldered in actually lasts longer. It doesn't get lose when you carry your phone in the pocket all the time. Contacts don't become rusty.

"Run perfectly fine", I suppose, if you have the patience of a saint.

And desktop/laptop RAM doesn't "become rusty". The fact that you can't upgrade it means it will have a shorter useful life should that be the limiting factor (which it often is, especially for Apple products).

 

[dk001]

Projected lifespan and customer lock-in (potential) is always calculated into the cost and sales projections of a product. If he says no, he is lying out of the side of his mouth or completely ignorant.
Either way, it likely made for some good sales / marketing laughs across the world

 

[Unimpossible]

There are definitely people with issues of all kinds of varieties with all kinds of devices on all kinds of OS versions. That doesn't change that there isn't some universal thing here that makes it all completely useless to everyone.

But it's not "issues of all kind of varieties". This is a well known issue, and in my opinion, a piece in "planned obsolescence".

 

[C DM]

But it's not "issues of all kind of varieties". This is a well known issue, and in my opinion, a piece in "planned obsolescence".

And yet still not something that is "useless" for everyone.

(And interestingly enough when Apple decides to drop support for some older devices when a new update comes out likely because the update wouldn't run well on it, then essentially the same people call that "planned obsolescence" as well, while if they keep supporting an older/weaker device for longer than it should be and it doesn't perform well then it's also "planned obsoleteness". Damned if you, damned if you don't. And surely it makes total sense for Apple to maliciously do things that would make the experience worse, because upsetting users is what gets them to stay with you and keep on getting more and more from you, right?)

 

[jeremiah256]

What Apple does in terms of supporting older hardware is unsurpassed in the consumer market. As for phones what they are doing in terms of support of older units is unbelievable. Your complaint is laughable.

These computers you are talking about are 7+ years old. They still work perfectly with your issue being the latest OS will not support your computer. Live with 10.13 and be happy. You cannot bitch about a company providing zero cost updates for 7+ year old computers. Additionally the reality of the situation is that Apple is now a phone company and computers sales represent a small portion of their total revenue. Companies will always go where the money is to keep the most people satisfied.

Speaking only for myself? I’m fine with Mojave not supporting my 2011 MBP. What I’m salty about is that the latest version of High Sierra I can use on it, suddenly blocks eGPU capabilities, coincidentally when it added those capabilities to newer Macs. Apple tried to gimp every Mac without Thunderbolt 3, removing a feature that would provide some future proofing with regards to graphics performance, and a means to bring multiple displays on older Macs.

 

[trifid]

I think everyone is forgetting a crucial component within the context of John Gruber's original comment about planned obsolescence, the fact that Apple BANS users from downgrading, meaning that they are stuck with a slow iOS release and can't downgrade.

So historically newer iOS releases slow down a phone and in many cases it forces people to buy a new iPhone given they have no choice to downgrade.

Before someone shouts that it's their fault for upgrading, keep in mind Apple's constant nagging to upgrade is severely annoying and frustates many people to the point they end up upgrading.

Apple gives no choice to downgrade, nor to turn off the nagging, conveniently fitting perfectly into a planned obsolescence scheme (intended or not).

 

[Speedy2]

Oh dear. The feeling of entitlement is strong in this thread.
The simple truth is, people are so enormously pissed because others get a free update and they don't.
End of story.

It's not that your phone/computer will turn into dust on the day the new OS is released, right?
Also, everyone seems to forget the fact that it has *always* *been* *this* *way* in the tech world from day one. In fact, it was much, much worse. And still people just can't stop complaining. Boohoo. Cry me river. Get real.

 

[hans1972]

How is it a meme when my persona ldevices and of many users are affected?

Just because newer versions of iOS runs slower on older iPhones does not prove PLANNED obsolescence.

You have to prove that Apple intended and in effect planned for this, that they used resources to specifically make it more slow. If there is no plan, there cannot be PLANNED obsolescence.
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Isn't one of the main ideas of planned obsolescence making something so it has to be replaced?

No, the main idea is that a PLAN must exist.

Isn't changing machines from being easily serviceable and upgradeable, to making it impossible or difficult enough to do that most people just replace the machine, a form of planned obsolescence?

No, because this might only be a side effect from what they intended.

If the intention for example was to reduce production cost and the side effect was that people bought new Macs because the old ones were difficult to repair, you would not have PLANNED obsolesence, but maybe UNPLANNED obsolescence.

 

[JungleNYC]

iOS: We care about your older devices.

MacOS: Please throw away your MacBook (Late 2009), MacBook (Mid 2010), MacBook Pro (Mid 2010), MacBook Pro (Early 2011), MacBook Pro (Late 2011), iMac (Late 2009), iMac (Mid 2010), iMac (Mid 2011), Mac mini (Mid 2010), or Mac mini (Mid 2011).

What a great company...

(Sorry for the repost, but this is definitely relevant here.)

I think if they were better about the state they left the previous OS in, it would be better/fairer. Right now, though, if you're stuck with an older OS on an older machine, chances are it has a ton of unfixed blatant bugs in it. But the Devs have moved onto newer OS, and only do security updates to the older systems. Apple should dedicate a tad more effort to cleaning up these older versions imo.

 

[Michael Goff]

I’ve asked it before and I’ll ask it again:

Why do people that believe Apple is actively screwing them over continue to buy Apple products?

 

[Aloft085]

Now, instead of simply upgrading my '13 MBP with a newer, bigger SSD and some more RAM, I get to throw it out and buy a new one.

For most people, that's going to make marginal or no improvement to their user experience. If you have a ton of things stored on your Mac, an external hard-drive will fix that problem. More RAM? This isn't the 90's, it's very unlikely your Mac is being slowed by only the RAM. Even if you wanted newer RAM, much of it will not be compatible with an old motherboard, and your processor is likely slowing you down significantly by that point as well.

Not only that, but you're asking for this hardware in a very compact 13" MBP. So should Apple make larger and bulkier computers that are compatible with after-market upgrades for the .01% of consumers that actually want those things?

 

[Abazigal]

I’ve asked it before and I’ll ask it again:

Why do people that believe Apple is actively screwing them over continue to buy Apple products?

Because people are weird.

 

[trifid]

I’ve asked it before and I’ll ask it again:

Why do people that believe Apple is actively screwing them over continue to buy Apple products?

Because there is iOS and Android, that's it. Out of this duopoly you have to choose one of the lesser evils.

But seriously Apple fans have endured all sorts screwing from their beloved company, yet they keep choosing the platform because that's the best option available, it's as simple as that. That doesn't mean we can't call out Apple when we need to call them out.

 

[Abazigal]

Because there is iOS and Android, that's it. Out of this duopoly you have to choose one of the lesser evils.

But seriously Apple fans have endured all sorts screwing from their beloved company, yet they keep choosing the platform because that's the best option available, it's as simple as that. That doesn't mean we can't call out Apple when we need to call them out.

And I agree that criticism should definitely be doled out when warranted.

I just wished that Apple also got credit and recognition for what they do well. Seems like we are getting nothing but criticism hurled at Apple one after another. Hearing the vitriol levelled at Apple today, you would think that Apple has absolutely zero redeeming qualities whatsoever when in reality, Apple products continue to deliver excellent user experiences despite their shortcomings. Or sometimes, precisely because of their perceived “shortcomings”.

 

[Michael Goff]

Because there is iOS and Android, that's it. Out of this duopoly you have to choose one of the lesser evils.

But seriously Apple fans have endured all sorts screwing from their beloved company, yet they keep choosing the platform because that's the best option available, it's as simple as that. That doesn't mean we can't call out Apple when we need to call them out.

There’s criticism and then there's conspiracy theories. Also, if Apple is screwing you then Android would be better just on that point.

Why not get a Taizen Phone, Windows Phone, or Sailfish Phone?

 

[31 Flavas]

I think everyone is forgetting a crucial component within the context of John Gruber's original comment about planned obsolescence, the fact that Apple BANS users from downgrading, meaning that they are stuck with a slow iOS release and can't downgrade.

The iPhone 5s and iPad 4 on launch of iOS 12 will be a 5 year old devices. 5 year old devices that will get an OS update that will not just continue their support for another year, but improve their performance. And seemingly not just subtly, but significantly. That's antithetical to the tentpole of "planned obsolescence" which is that it is to be a clandestine means to drive hardware sales.

Interestingly, to me at least, Apple's "severely annoying" and constant nagging to upgrade will drive this performance update on to devices operated, not by the tech illuminati, but operated by the uneducated masses. The "sheeple" who are supposed to be most susceptible to planned obsolescence. Moreover, as you state Apple will BAN everyone from reverting to iOS 11 after upgrading. If that's not killing the goose that lays the golden eggs - what is?

Is this just a ruse so that -next year- they can release a *6th* OS update (iOS 13) for the iPhone 5s and iPad 4 that will really tighten the screws and make these sheeple think it's time to upgrade? ... Not that Apple couldn't have skipped all of this and just left them with iOS 11 in the first place.

 

[trifid]

The iPhone 5s and iPad 4 on launch of iOS 12 will be a 5 year old devices. 5 year old devices that will get an OS update that will not just continue their support for another year, but improve their performance. And seemingly not just subtly, but significantly. That's antithetical to the tentpole of "planned obsolescence" which is that it is to be a clandestine means to drive hardware sales.

Interestingly, to me at least, Apple's "severely annoying" and constant nagging to upgrade will drive this performance update on to devices operated, not by the tech illuminati, but operated by the uneducated masses. The "sheeple" who are supposed to be most susceptible to planned obsolescence. Moreover, as you state Apple will BAN everyone from reverting to iOS 11 after upgrading. If that's not killing the goose that lays the golden eggs - what is?

Is this just a ruse so that -next year- they can release a *6th* OS update (iOS 13) for the iPhone 5s and iPad 4 that will really tighten the screws and make these sheeple think it's time to upgrade? ... Not that Apple couldn't have skipped all of this and just left them with iOS 11 in the first place.

I remember Apple promising better performance and responsiveness with iOS9, it was in their marketing materials, and it turned out to be a complete disaster with multiple lawsuits accusing Apple of rendering iPhone 4 unusable. That was the only time I can remember Apple explicitly marketing better performance on a new iOS release in the last 10 years and it actually delivered the opposite.

So I'm excited and all to see reports of the iOS12 beta showing better performance, but before we make grand statements lets remember we've had a clear pattern over the last 10 years of slowness, keyboard hiccups, stuttering, etc etc on each iOS release. Whether it's intentional neglect or not, it's extremely convenient to say the least that each iOS release for the last 10 years has been bogging down iPhones.

But it's more convenient that Apple only gives you 2-4 weeks to downgrade, and then exiles you from doing so. Why not give you a few months? Security concerns? Really? It was announced only 80% are using iOS11, what about the other 20%? 20% represents MILLIONS of users supposedly with disastrous unsecured iOS10 or earlier. It's armageddon right? Please.

iOS 12 might deliver on the promise of better performance. That's one iOS release in 10 years that might reverse a trend. But what's going to happen in iOS13? Do you see Apple really going out of their way to optimize old hardware? I don't, we have 10 years of evidence, Apple generally doesn't care.

If there is no conspiracy then allow users to downgrade, because I guarantee you that either iOS13, 14, 15 will bog down iPhones and we'll be back on the same boat.

 

[C DM]

I remember Apple promising better performance and responsiveness with iOS9, it was in their marketing materials, and it turned out to be a complete disaster with multiple lawsuits accusing Apple of rendering iPhone 4 unusable. That was the only time I can remember Apple explicitly marketing better performance on a new iOS release in the last 10 years and it actually delivered the opposite.

So I'm excited and all to see reports of the iOS12 beta showing better performance, but before we make grand statements lets remember we've had a clear pattern over the last 10 years of slowness, keyboard hiccups, stuttering, etc etc on each iOS release. Whether it's intentional neglect or not, it's extremely convenient to say the least that each iOS release for the last 10 years has been bogging down iPhones.

But it's more convenient that Apple only gives you 2-4 weeks to downgrade, and then exiles you from doing so. Why not give you a few months? Security concerns? Really? It was announced only 80% are using iOS11, what about the other 20%? 20% represents MILLIONS of users supposedly with disastrous unsecured iOS10 or earlier. It's armageddon right? Please.

iOS 12 might deliver on the promise of better performance. That's one iOS release in 10 years that might reverse a trend. But what's going to happen in iOS13? Do you see Apple really going out of their way to optimize old hardware? I don't, we have 10 years of evidence, Apple generally doesn't care.

If there is no conspiracy then allow users to downgrade, because I guarantee you that either iOS13, 14, 15 will bog down iPhones and we'll be back on the same boat.

As much as I support being able to install whatever version, Apple can certainly have valid potential reasons from their side of things to not provide downgrading abilities that don't involve any particular conspiracies.

 

[OUsooner08]

Considering the focus on supporting the same devices with iOS 12 and trying to debunk the claim of planned obsolescence, why not do the same with MacOS? I understand the apps ported over from iOS require Metal and wouldn't run on 2011 Macs, but the rest of the OS can be made to work on OpenGL.

They are supporting Macs back to 2012 with Mojave. You're older Macs will still work, just not run the latest OS update. That's no different than any other company. Technology changes, you can't indefinitely support a computer/phone/tablet with software updates.

 

[trifid]

I'd like to add this little gem as well, which I think is very telling:

Phil Schiller thinks it’s sad that people use 5-year-old computers

 

[ROGmaster]

IMHO (and I emphasize this is IMO) Windows 10 is a reskinned Windows XP, which is why it installs on older hardware. There are no features that make it dependent on newer hardware and most of the changes are UI, with some under the cover optimizations, similar to IOS 12 strategy). However, Microsoft has stated (and I don't know if they have changed their mind) older releases 7,8,8.1 will not run on newer chips beyond a certain point. So there is that.

That's absolute nonsense.
Windows 10 works on older hardware because Microsoft made it backwards compatible (windows 10 has all the necessary drivers to work no problem on hardware older than 10 year). It's kind of their thing.

 

[TheTissot11]

How did they calculate 95% customer satisfaction?? I must be in 5% then. Also it would be nicer if they compare the customer satisfaction for each iterations of OS. I'm sure iOS 10 will fare better than iOS 11.

 

[AnthonyHarris]

Still not going to update to iOS12! I not sure what version my 5C can go up to. it it has 7.01 currently!If Apple were on the level, they would open it up to more earlier models other the the iPhone 6 and later.

4/5 years of software updates is much more than you'd expect on other platforms.

A lot of unrealistic expectations in here, particularly in the tech world.

I know right. Anyone complaining can always go and buy (insert name of generic tablet) and see how many updates that gets.

 

[I7guy]

That's absolute nonsense.
Windows 10 works on older hardware because Microsoft made it backwards compatible (windows 10 has all the necessary drivers to work no problem on hardware older than 10 year). It's kind of their thing.

There is virtually nothing windows 10 can do that windows xp can’t. Talking some basic UI differences. And yes Microsoft did get smarter about optimization. Automatic -delayed service startup for one, but that was windows 7.
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I'd like to add this little gem as well, which I think is very telling:

Phil Schiller thinks it’s sad that people use 5-year-old computers

At least quote something from wwdc 2018.

 

[ROGmaster]

There is virtually nothing windows 10 can do that windows xp can’t. Talking some basic UI differences. And yes Microsoft did get smarter about optimization. Automatic -delayed service startup for one, but that was windows 7.
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At least quote something from wwdc 2018.

So you are trying to deflect now. LoL
You claimed that because Windows 10 works on old computers it's just a skinned version of XP, that's completely wrong.

And off the top of my head I can give a few examples of things Windows 10 can do while XP can't:
It can boot much faster
It's arhitecturaly more secure
It can run on ARM SOCs
It better uses hardware resources like modern multicore CPUs, SSDs, higher RAM quantities
Facial recognition
UWP apps
Tablet mode
Notifications
Gaming mode

and so on

There are a crazy amount of under the hood difference between W10 and XP. Or you want to deny this more than obvious fact and stick with your ideea that it's just a "skinned version"?