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iReality85

macrumors 65816
Apr 29, 2008
1,107
2,380
Upstate NY
Like 16GB RAM, check my 2011 got that. SSD? The one in my 2011 is plenty fast. The CPU + iGPU, like only 33% faster vs 2018, hardly going to make a difference since the 2012 model is fine and supported. The only reason the 2011 model got dropped is the iGPU is missing a/some functions they are using for metal. They could properly code those missing functions using slower pathways but couldn't be bothered to.

It's not like windows 10 runs on old systems, ohhh, wait it does.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/yes-windows-10-runs-great-on-old-hardware/

Microsoft is able to run on anything in the last decade, but somehow Apple can't even manage their own platforms with all the profits. I can only hope the next MacBook Pro is not like those 2016/2017 abominations, the only thing that would make me buy those is my current one dying and I would properly look for a cheap used 2015 first.

What a bunch of BS.

I just looked up the specs of a typical 13" MBP from LATE 2011 (because I couldn't remember, it's so long ago):

- Intel Sandy Bridge processors. That's Gen 2... we're on Gen 8 now. Get out of here with you're "only 33% faster" BS. Intel's Coffee Lake and iGPUs are WAY faster than that, not to mention capable of much more. I don't think you know what "fast" is if you're stuck with something from 2011, sorry to break it to you.
- 1333 MHz DDR3 RAM. Slow ass RAM, even for DDR3 speeds. DDR4 2666MHz is standard now.
- 1280 x 800 resolution for the 13". In other words, ancient.
- USB 2.0 only.
- Wireless N only. AC has been around for years now.
- Bluetooth 2.1. We're on 4.0+ now.

https://support.apple.com/kb/sp645?locale=en_US

So please, stop defending old systems. If you're fine with it, by all means stick with what you got. But the truth is, Apple wants to maintain a level of performance, experience, and expectations for Mac OS, and that means older systems do become obsolete since hardware becomes old.

By the way, Windows laptops and PCs from that time period now also perform like crap. Especially after the Spectre and Meltdown patches.

7 years might as well be an eternity in the tech world.
 
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gsurf123

macrumors 6502
Jun 1, 2017
470
846
iOS: We care about your older devices.

MacOS: Please throw away your MacBook (Late 2009), MacBook (Mid 2010), MacBook Pro (Mid 2010), MacBook Pro (Early 2011), MacBook Pro (Late 2011), iMac (Late 2009), iMac (Mid 2010), iMac (Mid 2011), Mac mini (Mid 2010), or Mac mini (Mid 2011).

What a great company...

(Sorry for the repost, but this is definitely relevant here.)

What Apple does in terms of supporting older hardware is unsurpassed in the consumer market. As for phones what they are doing in terms of support of older units is unbelievable. Your complaint is laughable.

These computers you are talking about are 7+ years old. They still work perfectly with your issue being the latest OS will not support your computer. Live with 10.13 and be happy. You cannot bitch about a company providing zero cost updates for 7+ year old computers. Additionally the reality of the situation is that Apple is now a phone company and computers sales represent a small portion of their total revenue. Companies will always go where the money is to keep the most people satisfied.
 
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alexgowers

macrumors 65816
Jun 3, 2012
1,338
892
Tech is always planned to be obsolete, if it wasn't it would improve at a glacial rate.

A bench might last hundreds of years, whereas a modern computer is unlikely to fail before an old apple II. Adding in encapsulated batteries and very heavy OS's that won't run on old hardware is planned obsolescence even if by accident.
 

ReneR

macrumors 6502
Jun 18, 2008
342
346
Berlin, Germany
Oh, MacRumors wrote a bad word.


So, you want indefinite free OS support for older Macs?

No, but more than unreasonably sort. Also Apple would not need to internally white and black list devices, and let users at least try to use it unofficially.
[doublepost=1528378568][/doublepost]
I am less concerned with planned obsolescence as it pertains to their software than I am as it pertains to hardware; User serviceable batteries, RAM, Hard drives, etc. All gone from their once flexible and expandable Macbook Pro line. Now, instead of simply upgrading my '13 MBP with a newer, bigger SSD and some more RAM, I get to throw it out and buy a new one.

Apple, tell me more about how you don't not engage in planned obsolescence!
This isn't realistic in the slightest. No company is going to keep two enormous OS code bases just to support older hardware than can't run Metal.

you mean unlike Linux and even Windows running on 10+ years old hardware?
[doublepost=1528378710][/doublepost]
Apple has had to support two major architecture transitions on the Mac, so don't tell me that maintaining some legacy code for one more release of the OS isn't a reasonable request. While I don't think they are doing this intentionally for planned obsolescence, they clearly see no financial incentive in continuing support on the MacOS side (vs. overcoming the lawsuits and bad publicity from updates slowing down older devices on the iOS side).

yes, and also I liked the last non flat mac OS 10.9. Neither did we ask Apple for yearly major releases, nor is it too much to ask to get security updates for a couple of more years if they dropped support for your older Mac, ..!
 

Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Nov 14, 2011
24,183
31,240
It is really ignorant to say planned obsolescence or built-in obsolescence are ridiculous. This is a standard practice in lots of industries. Cars, Light bulbs, Electronic goods, they all are designed to last for a well defined lifespan. And the whole business plan is build around that.
OK but then that’s not just specific to Apple and it’s not done for sinister reasons. Companies don’t make bad products so they can get you to buy new ones. Technology evolves and gets better.
 

baryon

macrumors 68040
Oct 3, 2009
3,880
2,941
Sure, there's "planned obsolescence" and there's "our new update, by its nature, makes older devices slower than they were and it's physically impossible to downgrade back, but hey updates are great!".

It's not that Apple is writing code that goes like "If (iPhone_age > 3 years) {low_performance_mode.activate};". It's that they're releasing new software that has more features, and therefore bogs down older devices. New features are great, but if your phone is so slow you can't even type on it anymore without waiting 1 second for each keystroke, and scrolling becomes choppy and a webpage takes 5 times longer to load than yesterday, then who cares about new features?

I think that the primary functions of a smartphone — such as typing, scrolling opening the default apps, loading webpages — should not become slower just because there are new emojis available, or that there's a new menu somewhere in preferences, or that there's a new version of ARkit available. The basic, everyday tasks that you *need* should have priority over the fancy new features that you didn't even know existed yesterday.

Also, how do they explain the active inability to downgrade back to the previous version of iOS? Why can't we do that? What if for whatever reason I preferred the previous version, why punish people and force them to use something they don't like?

I'd be happy to try out every new version of iOS, but I'm aware that one day, it will make my device slower than I'd like. At that point, I'll want to go back but can't. So as a precaution, I don't install them and have to read about it on forums and see what other people are experiencing. I should just be able to restore from a backup without any questions asked.

And then people will tell you to "just buy a new device" — why? If it worked perfectly fine yesterday, and should still work today had it not been for a bad software update, why discard the good hardware? There's a reason we're generating so much trash.

Also, let's say I don't have much money. I'd still rather buy an iPhone every 5 years, than buy an Android phone every 2 years. It comes out to the same price, and at least I have a phone that I like more. Apple should reward that and not punish it.





Oh and let's also talk about hardware.
  • Replace the battery? Nope. Buy a new one.
  • Add more RAM? Nope, buy a new one. Oh, the new one costs twice as much as the previous one did.
  • Something broke, out of warranty because you've been using it for a *whole year* (gasp)? Looks like it's time to buy a new one!
  • Power adapter cable frayed? Buy a new one.
And this isn't just for phones, but for super expensive computers, like the iMac Pro or the MacBook Pro. You know, with "pro" in the name, meaning you're *meant* to be using them in a professional, money-making environment, where you'll be using the hell out of them.
 
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[AUT] Thomas

macrumors 6502a
Mar 13, 2016
774
972
Graz [Austria]
What a bunch of BS.

I just looked up the specs of a typical 13" MBP from LATE 2011 (because I couldn't remember, it's so long ago):

- Intel Sandy Bridge processors. That's Gen 2... we're on Gen 8 now. Get out of here with you're "only 33% faster" BS. Intel's Coffee Lake and iGPUs are WAY faster than that, not to mention capable of much more. I don't think you know what "fast" is if you're stuck with something from 2011, sorry to break it to you.
- 1333 MHz DDR3 RAM. Slow ass RAM, even for DDR3 speeds. DDR4 2666MHz is standard now.
- 1280 x 800 resolution for the 13". In other words, ancient.
- USB 2.0 only.
- Wireless N only. AC has been around for years now.
- Bluetooth 2.1. We're on 4.0+ now.

https://support.apple.com/kb/sp645?locale=en_US

So please, stop defending old systems. If you're fine with it, by all means stick with what you got. But the truth is, Apple wants to maintain a level of performance, experience, and expectations for Mac OS, and that means older systems do become obsolete since hardware becomes old.

By the way, Windows laptops and PCs from that time period now also perform like crap. Especially after the Spectre and Meltdown patches.

7 years might as well be an eternity in the tech world.
Sorry, but that's far from reality...

Sandy Bridge to Kaby Lake was a huge step in terms of power per watt, but mostly by reducing the watt.
  • The performance difference is approx 50% in similar devices. http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i5-7300U-vs-Intel-Core-i5-2430M/m223355vsm429
  • Slow ass RAM is entirely irrelevant for office work. RAM speed is mostly relevant for the integrated GPU.
  • Resolution is bad, yes... still bad on new devices from Apple. See Macbook Air. Not an argument.
  • USB 2.0 is slow, but not argument either when the 12" MB has just one port which is blocked when charging. For anything except hard drives USB-speed is basically irrelevant.
  • Wireless N is still fast enough for almost anything except bulk file transfer. In that case ethernet is the first choice anyway. AC is nice, but mostly on paper. The huge benefit of AC is when lots of clients are connected to the same AP.
  • Bluetooth 4.0 is nice, but mostly irrelevant on laptops
The times were 5+ years have been an eternity in tech world are long gone... Systems are no longer outdated after 2 years.

What is not gone, but got worse is security. And that highly depends on the OS.
BTW: My gaming sys with Ivy Bridge and a recently added 1080 just performs fine. Most likely for another ~4 years.
 
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HarryWild

macrumors 68020
Oct 27, 2012
2,043
710
Still not going to update to iOS12! I not sure what version my 5C can go up to. it it has 7.01 currently!If Apple were on the level, they would open it up to more earlier models other the the iPhone 6 and later.
 

alphaod

macrumors Core
Feb 9, 2008
22,183
1,245
NYC
The amazing part of "planned obsolescence" is that years ago before iOS, you really never got updates your phone OS. I remember my Windows Mobile days and I had to basically get pirated copies of a new Windows Mobile version and anything newer was impossible.

Now basically as you put in more updates that get resource heavier of course it would seem like Apple or the like are deliberately slowing things down. I just took out my old Palm Pilot to this day it still doesn't feel slow, but the OS is so old and basically any cheap phone is better these days. You can't even imagine getting an OS update!

So the idea itself is crazy manifestation of what is essentially being good to the consumer. Would you buy a phone or tablet today that never gives you updates beyond what comes from the factory?
 

Unimpossible

macrumors member
Jun 1, 2018
56
29
Oh and doesn’t planned = intentional? Just because new software might not always work well on older hardware doesn’t mean it was intentionally designed that way.
Not only the apps. How about that iOS itself becomes so unresponsive and slow it's useless.
Try an iPad 2 whit the last iOS version you could "upgraded" it with.
 

raghu8912

macrumors 6502
Dec 5, 2016
345
168
San Jose
What a bunch of BS.

I just looked up the specs of a typical 13" MBP from LATE 2011 (because I couldn't remember, it's so long ago):

- Intel Sandy Bridge processors. That's Gen 2... we're on Gen 8 now. Get out of here with you're "only 33% faster" BS. Intel's Coffee Lake and iGPUs are WAY faster than that, not to mention capable of much more. I don't think you know what "fast" is if you're stuck with something from 2011, sorry to break it to you.
- 1333 MHz DDR3 RAM. Slow ass RAM, even for DDR3 speeds. DDR4 2666MHz is standard now.
- 1280 x 800 resolution for the 13". In other words, ancient.
- USB 2.0 only.
- Wireless N only. AC has been around for years now.
- Bluetooth 2.1. We're on 4.0+ now.

https://support.apple.com/kb/sp645?locale=en_US

So please, stop defending old systems. If you're fine with it, by all means stick with what you got. But the truth is, Apple wants to maintain a level of performance, experience, and expectations for Mac OS, and that means older systems do become obsolete since hardware becomes old.

By the way, Windows laptops and PCs from that time period now also perform like crap. Especially after the Spectre and Meltdown patches.

7 years might as well be an eternity in the tech world.

But the truth is, Apple wants to maintain a level of performance, experience, and expectations for Mac OS, and that means older systems do become obsolete since hardware becomes old.

If Apple does update 2011 MBPs then they will be slower & people will complain about slower MBPs and blame Apple for planned obsolescence .
I think Apple doesn't want to update older Macs due to Metal graphics compatibility.
 

gnasher729

Suspended
Nov 25, 2005
17,980
5,565
Apple permanently locks devices to iOS versions that render the device useless.

An iPhone 4S would be perfectly usable today on say iOS 6 -- just without the new features and app support. But once it's stuck on iOS 9, stick a fork in it.

It can't even type letters without lagging the heck out. Even my 6 on iOS 10/11 ran so poorly at the simplest tasks that even the 3G/3GS did without issue.

That's interesting. I have a 4s running iOS 9, and I have a 6+ running iOS 11, and they both run perfectly fine.
[doublepost=1528397395][/doublepost]
Performance? Please point out how non upgradable RAM leads to better performance. That sounds like planned obselence to me. User upgrable parts does not equal slower. They used the same form factor for the 2012 and 2014 Mac mini’s.
RAM that is soldered in actually lasts longer. It doesn't get lose when you carry your phone in the pocket all the time. Contacts don't become rusty.
 

Unimpossible

macrumors member
Jun 1, 2018
56
29
How would that make it any different than anecdotal in the context of "useless"?
You'll find people with legitimate issues.

And on the other hand, you won't find many people with legitimate fast and smooth iPad 2's on iOS9.
 

JGowan

macrumors 68000
Jan 29, 2003
1,766
23
Mineola TX
SO MUCH COMPLAINING! I stopped coming to Macrumors because of all the non-stop Negativity years ago. Still boring me to tears. Seacrest out (again!)
 

C DM

macrumors Sandy Bridge
Oct 17, 2011
51,392
19,458
You'll find people with legitimate issues.

And on the other hand, you won't find many people with legitimate fast and smooth iPad 2's on iOS9.
There are definitely people with issues of all kinds of varieties with all kinds of devices on all kinds of OS versions. That doesn't change that there isn't some universal thing here that makes it all completely useless to everyone.
 

Heat_Fan89

macrumors 68030
Feb 23, 2016
2,549
3,251
What a bunch of BS.

So please, stop defending old systems. If you're fine with it, by all means stick with what you got. But the truth is, Apple wants to maintain a level of revenue and that means older systems do become obsolete since hardware becomes old.

By the way, Windows laptops and PCs from that time period now also perform like crap. Especially after the Spectre and Meltdown patches.

7 years might as well be an eternity in the tech world.
There fixed it for you and on to your point of laptops running like crap from 7 years ago, I call BS to your statement. I have a 2007 IBM ThinkPad T60 with 3GB of ram with a 160GB spindle drive that runs Windows 10 Pro x64 just fine and should I say, pretty snappy too.
 
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