Apple Facing Class Action Lawsuit for Offering Refurbished Replacement Devices Under AppleCare+

[nviz22]

Right, but @BarcelonaPaul was saying that Apple should give new phones to people who bring in their used phones for warranty replacement because Apple "is the richest company in the world" and has consumers who have worked so hard to afford Apple products in the first place. His logic may be accepted as rational in Spain (where I assume he's from), but it doesn't apply in the U.S., which is where this class-action suit is happening.

Oh, yeah, what I said and you said stands. Refurbs before other options. Electronics depreciate, so Apple isn't going to turn around and give us new devices and say "go knock yourselves out." The EU is different with their warranty laws. Our product liability laws are very vague and limited. But there is enough for Apple to win this case with ease. If we forced companies to give new devices each time, we waste more resources and have higher priced Apple Care.

 

[pat500000]

If Apple is greedy then people will get greedy.

 

[kdarling]

How pray tell are they going to prove that a 'refurbished item' is not as reliable as their original new item, which becomes equivalent to refurbished the moment they take it out of it's wrapping.

Hardly. A new item has not been subject to temperature swings for possibly months. Or humidity. Or coughs or illnesses.

Most importantly, a new phone has only had its connectors put together just once... never taken apart and refitted to another circuit board. This becomes a new potential failure point.

I am amazed about how many people are siding with Apple on this one. Would you be ok for Apple to sell you a refurbished phone when you go to buy a new one? It almost looks like you'd be, and you'd be happy about it.

That's why I always make an offer: the next time they buy a brand new iPhone, they can swap it directly to me for a much cheaper refurb I'll buy.

Then I'll end up with a more valuable brand new device that I can resell for a profit, and they'll end up with what they claim is a "better than new" or "equivalent" refurb.

So far, haven't had any takers. Wonder why. Oh yeah, because there's a reason why refurbs are cheaper than new. They're made of used and possibly abused parts with an unknown history. Instead of "refurb", they should be called "Frankenstein" or "patchwork" phones, since they're returned phones cobbled together from various working modules to make a working device.

That said, I've bought refurbs on purpose. But that was because they were cheaper, not because I thought they were better than new!

 

[iMacC2D]

Removed.

 

[v0lume4]

I'm not taking sides here, just sharing the one experience I had with a refurb iPhone from Apple. The refurb phone stopped working one month after the refurb warranty ended. The iPhone wouldn't boot and would display a critical error that not even Apple could fix. So I had to pay for an out-of-warranty replacement refurb again. That sucked.

Did every person that signed the class action lawsuit have as bad an experience as me? Probably not.

--

Edit: cleared up a grammatical inconsistency

 

[JayLenochiniMac]

It might go through. I remember Apple was ordered to give a brand new devices in separated lawsuit somewhere else.

Clearly, some judge disagree with Apple.

You're talking about the Dutch lawsuit? Their law is pretty clear that it must either be repaired or replaced with a brand new device and hence the woman in that lawsuit succeeded, however frivolously. It doesn't allow for Apple's method of replacing a broken device with a remanufactured device instead of doing the actual repair.

We have no such law here so it's likely to be thrown out. Apple could have elected to send the iPhones to the depot for the actual repair, but is providing white box replacements on the spot out of convenience to the customer because 1) the customer won't have to be without their iPhone for a week at a time (like they currently do with the Apple Watch) and 2) they get the additional benefit of receiving a like-new device instead of getting back a repaired device that may be full of customer-induced scratches.

 

[JDW]

lawyer-bashing and all the other clicheed knee-jerk response, need to tone down the rhetoric.

Those words in your post were incentive for me to tone-UP the rhetoric. No doubt for others too. Please stop "fellow forum member bashing." Live and let live. But to repeat...

Why so many lawsuits in America?
Answer: Way to many lawyers.

These guys get paid huge sums for what they do. They couldn't care less if anyone bashes them, which is why it's foolish for anyone to stand up for them. They only thing standing up for lawyers does is scream, "I'm a legalist! And somehow, I am not a hypocrite either!"

The fact remains there are still too many lawsuits in America. That truth transcends Apple and this forum.
END MOST LAWSUITS NOW!

And while you're at it, buy more Refurbs just to spite these numbskulls filing the suit. There's nothing wrong with refurbs. Yes, I buy refurbs and have zero issues. Refurbs, in my experience, offer the buyer a great product that's tested too. Your mileage may vary, but I nevertheless happily recommend Apple Refurbs.

 

[Deuce on the Clock]

Yes, that's the entire process of refurbishing a board in a nutshell, and Apple does exactly that. Across a board are numerous test points for probing power and signal lines. If a power rail is down, you would then trace that rail back until you find the component or components in the chain that require replacement to restore that board to service.

After all, where does everyone think those Logic Boards for the MacBook Pro (Early/Late 2011) graphics repair extension program are coming from? Apple doesn't have factories churning out brand new 2011 era boards. Some component suppliers wouldn't even be manufacturing the components needed to produce that board anymore. They're all reworked boards that have failed in some way, from component failure to user inflicted damage, that have then been returned to Apple as exchange parts so they can be repaired and returned back into the service parts pool.

If the processor failed, nobody would be sweeping inside the processor to find the bad link. They would just replace the entire processor. But the board itself can certainly be repaired, and in all honesty it isn't that difficult. Even I've repaired Apple Logic Boards before, current generation Retina Pro boards with little more than a couple of hundred dollars worth of bench soldering and inspection tools. That includes liquid damaged ones.

"Yes, that's the entire process of refurbishing a board in a nutshell, and Apple does exactly that."
No this is not what Apple does. They replace whole components not the pieces to the components.

 

[tentales]

Those words in your post were incentive for me to tone-UP the rhetoric. No doubt for others too. Please stop "fellow forum member bashing." Live and let live. But to repeat...

Why so many lawsuits in America?
Answer: Way to many lawyers.

These guys get paid huge sums for what they do. They couldn't care less if anyone bashes them, which is why it's foolish for anyone to stand up for them. They only thing standing up for lawyers does is scream, "I'm a legalist! And somehow, I am not a hypocrite either!"

The fact remains there are still too many lawsuits in America. That truth transcends Apple and this forum.
END MOST LAWSUITS NOW!

And while you're at it, buy more Refurbs just to spite these numbskulls filing the suit. There's nothing wrong with refurbs. Yes, I buy refurbs and have zero issues. Refurbs, in my experience, offer the buyer a great product that's tested too. Your mileage may vary, but I nevertheless happily recommend Apple Refurbs.

1) I wasn't "standing up" for lawyers. I agree, too many frivolous lawsuits exists.
2) "bashing fellow forum member" , really? seems like you're the hypocrite here.
3) We agree on refurbs.
4) Your angry tone is exactly what needs to tone down.

FWIW, I voiced an opinion like many here, I did not engage in "fellow forum member bashing", you did!

 

[paulomagrani]

Apple is facing a new class action lawsuit, levied today by customers in California who are unhappy that their iPhones and iPads were replaced with refurbished devices under Apple's AppleCare or AppleCare+ warranty plan.

Filed by Vicky Maldonado and Joanne McRight, the lawsuit, first shared by Cult of Mac, accuses Apple of failing to provide replacement devices that are "equivalent to new in performance and reliability" as stated in the company's terms and conditions.

Both plaintiffs purchased replacement devices under AppleCare protection plans and were given refurbished devices rather than new devices, which they claim is a violation of the aforementioned line in the AppleCare Terms and Conditions.

The plaintiffs claim they were deprived of the "use and value" of their original devices when Apple replaced them with refurbished devices, suffering an economic loss in the amount of the cost of the AppleCare plans, the loss of value of their original non-refurbished devices, and the purchase cost and replacement cost paid to Apple.

Apple is being accused of breach of contract, breach of warranty, concealing information from the public, deceptive marketing, violating labeling requirements, and unfair competitive practices. The lawsuit covers all customers who purchased an AppleCare or AppleCare+ plan for an iPhone, iPad, or iPod touch after July 11, 2011.

The plaintiffs are seeking damages, attorneys fees, an order that would prevent Apple from replacing damaged or defective iOS devices with refurbished devices in the future, updated AppleCare+ terms and conditions, and an option to get a refund for a broken device instead of a repair.

Article Link: Apple Facing Class Action Lawsuit for Offering Refurbished Replacement Devices Under AppleCare+

The terms mean "good as new" not "new." Stupid, frivolous lawsuit by wasteful idiots who want to pretend like there's a functional difference. Also, they want Apple to issue a refund NOT for devices that are defective, but also that consumers break?! Ridiculous.

 

[JDW]

1) I wasn't "standing up" for lawyers.

Yes, you really were. That remains true regardless of your feeling that too many lawsuits exist.

2) "bashing fellow forum member" , really? seems like you're the hypocrite here.

By defending lawyers with the words you used before, you essentially said, "I'm a LEGALIST." I for one am not a legalist for the specific reason that you cannot be a legalist and somehow NOT be hypocritical insofar as we all are imperfect human beings. Therefore, my context of using "hypocrite" had its proper place. In your previous post, you used it against me as an emotionally charged weapon.

3) We agree on refurbs.

I'm pleased to hear that.

4) Your angry tone is exactly what needs to tone down.

Anger implies excess emotion is involved, but such is not the case. All caps are easier to see, not necessarily a sign of screaming, regardless of how they are normally interpreted on forums like this. My tone is not angry insofar as I am not angry. I actually have a smile on my face right now, with no animosity toward you, as I write this. Seriously.

FWIW, I voiced an opinion like many here, I did not engage in "fellow forum member bashing", you did!

You simply do not comprehend the impact of your own words then. When you say "lawyer bashing" to your fellow forum members, you are assuming that everyone will agree you are the sane and stable one who is bashing no one. But in fact, simply because someone in this forum mentions a lawyer in a less than positive light does not necessarily mean they are "bashing." If by using your own "here's a basher" criterion we label someone in this thread as "lawyer-bashing," then by that same criterion, you would be guilty of "bashing your fellow forum members."

So how do we avoid any resemblance of bashing anyone? By either saying nothing at all or by praising or siding with them. That's not to say you cannot disagree. But when we disagree, someone out there will allows perceive a tone as "aggressive, angry, bashing, etc." The problem with disagreement is that it is usually charged with emotion. If I myself have any emotion here, it is not against you. It is against the mindset that encourages the free and endless flow of American lawsuits. That, my friend, is infuriating. Perhaps if more Americans could be infuriated by it, they would speak up and ask for change.

With that said, I am happy you feel there are too many lawsuits. And I am very happy you feel refurbs are a good buy. Let's end on that positive note and stay there!

Best wishes.

 

[paulomagrani]

In Brazil there is no Apple Care for iPhone, yet!
But Apple charges in advance R$1.890,00 = USD630,00 for an iPhone 5S.
And 80% of the time they send a refurbished iPhone back to the customer.
The worst point is that a New iPhone may cost less than R$1.300,00 at any retail store.

 

[duffman9000]

Oh, yeah, what I said and you said stands. Refurbs before other options. Electronics depreciate, so Apple isn't going to turn around and give us new devices and say "go knock yourselves out." The EU is different with their warranty laws. Our product liability laws are very vague and limited. But there is enough for Apple to win this case with ease. If we forced companies to give new devices each time, we waste more resources and have higher priced Apple Care.

One component doesn't work? Throw the entire thing away it's garbage now. That's the new American way!

 

[beaker353]

I thought all the parts that receive wear and tear were new parts?

- New case
- New screen
- New battery
- New buttons
- New connectors

Basically the only thing that could be "used" is the PCB inside? Something that doesn't suffer wear and tear at all?

People are either idiots, or greedy. I'm gonna vote for the latter mostly.

NAND flash memory (the technically correct engineering term for the storage of solid state drives, USB flash drives, and storage on pretty much every phone) has limited write/rewrite cycles. Once a cell has reached the end of its life and fails it will either hopefully be substituted with a spare cell on the silicon if any are available. If not, either the storage available to the OS will drop and/or data errors will start to pile up and cause the device to flip-out. Wear leveling and other technology to reduce the damage each write places on the cells will help lengthen the life of flash, but this only goes so far. Ultimately, a used NAND flash device has less of a lifespan until it begins to fault and fail. This is not a debatable function, it's a scientifically proved fact of the physics of the technology. Some of the highest rated common TLC (triple level cell) memory are only rated for 150 cycles before failure.

Greedy, no. Idiot, no. Understand the technical limitations of used technology and don't want to be screwed over, yes.

-beaker353

 

[oldmacs]

I've received two faulty iPad replacements (1 broken home button and 1 faulty sim card reader) and 2 faulty iPhone replacements (1 volume button and 1 defective screen).

I don't see how it is fair if your device breaks within the first month (like mine did) that you get a refurb. Pretty sure flash memory has limited numbers of writes anyway.

 

[Robert.Walter]

We have purchased a large number of Apple devices over the past 5 years as well as convinced many acquaintances and friends to go with Apple (it has been fun to do this).

We have had mixed results with Apple Care but in each case, Apple seemed to remember Steve's counsel to Tim of "do the right thing", and came through.

Background:
My mother bought a new 64GB 4s about 5 years ago. After about a year, the speakerphone/ringer speaker failed. Mom went to the Apple Store and received a refurb unit. When visiting me a few months later for a small trip, I removed her otter box and replaced it with a Mophie battery case (from day 1, her iPhones were always in the otter box, the Mophie was so that she could take videos without draining her battery.). What I noticed was that the refurb unit was missing both of the screws adjacent to the dock connector. Mom confirmed that they didn't repair her old phone, but gave her a different unit.

Aside:
The genius also failed to both give her back her SIM card (sending her to the Verizon store to get another) and to properly set up (setting up from an incomplete iCloud backup) her phone even though she brought her MacBook with a current iTunes backup along with her.

Although mom used her refurb unit for another 2 years without problems before trading it in on a 128GB iPhone 6, it can not be disputed that both the refurb tech failed to do his job correctly and the QC process failed to catch this.

So that was the bad.

Now the good:
I have been involved in the purchase of several refurb MacBooks (and time capsules) and all were cosmetically indistinguishable from new and have performed fine over the last 1-3 years (depending on when bought.)

I received a refurb iPad Air 2 as a replacement for a new one that (correction) had a rear camera failure. The refurb looked new and has performed flawlessly over the past year.

Now the comparators:
I bought a new iPad 3 which came with a dead pixel. Although this pi$$ed me off, I never bothered to replace it.

My mother, sister and I all bought 128 GB iPhone 6 units on the first day of availability (them in late Sept 2014 and since I'm in Europe, and this unit was not available here until late Dec 2014.)

Within a month of purchase, sister (screen color issues) and mother (don't recall issue) both had problems with their new units and, recalling the 4s refurb w/o screws, demanded new, not refurb, phones as replacement. It took a couple of days of back and forth complaining and demanding to get the approvals from management but Apple came through.

In the case of my 6, within a month or so many various performance issues developed. But rather than immediately replacing it, and after making it clear that if we couldn't fix it I wanted a new unit, I agreed to work with an Apple Sr Tech to see if we could figure out the issue.

It was thought that a software update would cure the problems but after two (or was it 3?) software updates the problems continued. So after about 2 months of giving it the old college try (please note that Apple did not demand I go through this process, rather it was I who suggested we try to discover the issue) Apple agreed to send me a new phone.

As for all the other many new devices I bought, for myself or others, they have been fine. (Except my Apple TV3, which was covered under a poorly publicized replacement program, for streaming issues, that expired before I knew it existed. I still think this was lame because although Apple knows who had suspect devices - automatically registered via AppleID**.)

Summary:
We never misunderstood Apple Care as a "get a new device" program, but in the case of full price 128GB iPhone 6 units that went rogue so soon after purchase (and given mom's previous 4s quasi-refurbished refurb experience) none of us thought it was appropriate to receive anything other than a new unit as a solution to the problems we experienced.

Had we had the phones longer before a hardware problem developed, none of us would have had a problem accepting a refurb unit in exchange for what would have been used units. But since we believed that there was an issue in the memory, storage or processors of our early build units, we just didn't want to replace them with a refurb early build unit and be back in the same boat again.

Aside from standing our ground and taking a few days of back and forth as the issue escalated to whoever had authority to get this done, we were satisfied and happy in the end.

Now the hammer:
** If Apple should be sued for something, it should be for the abhorrent way they administer their safety recalls. In the past 1-2 years, they have recalled the Europe 5W iPhone charger (burn risk) and the European duck head adaptor for the 20W charger, Mac charger, travel adaptor kit***, and AA rechargeable battery kit**** (electrocution risk). Despite knowing who has the most of these items because most iPhones, iPads and Macs are related to an AppleID (which is the owner's email address), and registered in Apple's My Support Profile, to my knowledge, Apple never bothered to contact anybody I know.

*** the World Travel Adaptor was forgotten from Apple's January recall notice, and only added after I sent an email to Apple and then was called by a person in Executive Relations who (kind of arrogantly) tried to convince me that the recall notice was prepared by experts (reminded me of the "top men" scene from Raiders of the Lost Ark) and I was mistaken; I insisted I was not mistaken. A couple of days later she called me back leaving me a message that I was correct (with IIRC not as much as a thank you or apology.). The notice was amended in the beginning of February.

**** None of the "top men" notice preparers, caught on to the fact that they forgot to add the AA rechargeable battery kit. And despite my IIRC informing the Apple contact person about this additional oversight, the recall notice was never amended to include it.

In my deep experience in handling automotive recalls, Apple either due to being very incompetent in their recall organization (with any kind of decent materials management system -and I expect Apple has the best- anybody could easily compile a list of all items using a recalled component), or due to someone not wanting to do this for reputation or cost reasons.

Regardless of root cause, Apple's process doesn't fully respect or protect it's customers, and this, more than anything I can think of, puts both the company's reputation and customer goodwill at risk and reflects very poorly upon Apple. (I want to note that I am a tremendous fan of Apple, but do not let that blind me to the fact that Apple could do much better on this point. It would be so easy to turn recalls into a legendary sticky customer experience but somebody in Cupertino doesn't know how to handle recalls.)

 

[JayLenochiniMac]

I don't see how it is fair if your device breaks within the first week (like mine did) that you get a refurb. Pretty sure flash memory has limited numbers of writes anyway.

If your device broke down within the first week, you had the right to return it for a full refund (as you were within your 14-day return period) and purchase another retail box. Why didn't you do that?

 

[JDW]

One component doesn't work? Throw the entire thing away it's garbage now. That's the new American way!

It's actually more the Japanese way. We in Japan simply store that garbage in separate boxes labeled plastics, glass, metals, paper, etc.

Seriously, when people buy a used home here in Japan, in almost every case they bulldoze the old home to make room for the new. I've lived here 21 years, but that mentality still boggles the mind. Sure they have a lot of quakes here. But the quest for NEW is a very serious quest indeed in Japan. As such, Japanese people would likely have more of a problem with getting a refurb as a replacement than most Americans. And yet, the Japanese simply DON'T SUE. Hmmm...

 

[oldmacs]

If your device broke down within the first week, you had the right to return it for a full refund (as you were within your 14-day return period) and purchase another retail box. Why didn't you do this?

I meant month sorry. That 14 day return period only applies to stuff bought directly from the Apple store anyway.

Regardless, why should anything newish be replaced with a device that has an unknown number of writes to the flash storage.

 

[CarlJ]

Can't tell you how many iPhone replacements I've received with wear and tear on the sides.

You've had an uncountable number of devices replaced? Are you incredibly clumsy or something? I've had three devices replaced (my iPad after I cracked the screen, totally my fault, yet they replaced it for AppleCare+ pricing several months after my AppleCare+ expired, and two iPhones my wife broke - she was, indeed, a bit clumsy). All three replacement devices came out of the plain white replacement boxes and were absolutely indistinguishable from new. Sorry you've had bad luck, but your characterization of Apple replacement devices having "always been ******" is demonstrably wrong.

 

[dacreativeguy]

The terms mean "good as new" not "new." Stupid, frivolous lawsuit by wasteful idiots who want to pretend like there's a functional difference. Also, they want Apple to issue a refund NOT for devices that are defective, but also that consumers break?! Ridiculous.

Because these people want to get their item replaced near the end of their warranty, then sell the replacement as a new device to fund their next purchase. If that replacement has a refurb serial number (they are coded differently), those replacements, while still new, don't have the same value as a new stock item with a normal serial number. Apple is clever enough to know this, and in fact, I would not be surprised if all the replacement items ARE new devices that simply have the different serial number coding to flag them as replacements so the unscrupulous can't con them.

 

[oldmacs]

All three replacement devices came out of the plain white replacement boxes and were absolutely indistinguishable from new. Sorry you've had bad luck, your your characterization of all Apple replacement devices being "*******" is demonstrably wrong.

What makes your characterisation any better? Maybe you've had good luck. I've had 4 faulty refurb replacements and know many with similar issues. My Dad got a faulty battery in his 5 replacement, brother in his touch replacement, and friends with non working cameras in iPhone 5 replacements etc. Pretty poor service for what were fairly new devices.

 

[iMacC2D]

Removed.

 

[JayLenochiniMac]

I meant month sorry. That 14 day return period only applies to stuff bought directly from the Apple store anyway.

I'm pretty sure most retailers have at least a two-week return period. I.e., you can return a bum iDevice back to Best Buy within the return period if you bought it there.

 

[AndrewR23]

You've had an uncountable number of devices replaced? Are you incredibly clumsy or something? I've had three devices replaced (my iPad after I cracked the screen, totally my fault, yet they replaced it for AppleCare+ pricing several months after my AppleCare+ expired, and two iPhones my wife broke - she was, indeed, a bit clumsy). All three replacement devices came out of the plain white replacement boxes and were absolutely indistinguishable from new. Sorry you've had bad luck, but your characterization of Apple replacement devices having "always been ******" is demonstrably wrong.

In 9 years, I've had 5 iPhone replacements. All 5 were crappy, had marks on the side and one had another users apple ID popping up. Im not clumsy.

The reason I said "couldn't tell you...." is bc I couldn't. So I went into my apple records and found all the paperwork. 5. in 9 years. Five. None since 2013.