Apple Fights Proposed Right to Repair Legislation With Warnings of Consumer Harm

[FairlyKors]

I like repairable devices, but not government legislation demanding manufacturers create such devices.

This desire to have X, Y or Z... “Without the damn government’s hands on me or my stuff!”... is as utopian a fantasy as any. America’s version of capitalism, free markets and democratic rule are not necessarily synergistic. Capitalism and effective democratic governance are actually bitter rivals. And lately, capitalism has been winning at the cost of personal freedom, personal protections from abusive and deceitful business tactics and also at the cost of *trying* to keep the environment and (all the plants and animals that depend on it) from knocked over with a steam shovel.

Federal and state government, with all its “laws” (as little as people seem to care for bureaucracy and politicians) is the only thing that’s keeping our brand of capitalism from destroying itself overnight. I’m not exaggerating here, either.

People who claim to be fiscally conservative but socially progressive also hold on to a similarly impossible catch-22. You don’t need have to be fiscally liberal to be socially progressive. But fiscal conservatives—especially as they exist right now—will bleed the poor dry just to add an extra 1/2 percent return to their already essentially non-taxed asset portfolios.

I’m not a fan on the Bernie Sanders semi-socialist agenda, but if I have to choose between that and a Koch Brothers endorsed, Ayn Rand approved “f— the poor, they should’ve been born smarter,” then that decision is made quite easy for me. The longer whomever have stolen the label of Republicanism refuse to talk or compromise, the stronger the ”socialist” movement grows, which is, again, a form of capitalism destroying itself. And in a very applicable way, why you’ll never have an “easy to repair” phone without some kind of intervention by someone with power, i.e., lawmakers.

 

[rafark]

I have Apple Care. Last week I dropped my XS and cracked the screen. In less than 2 hours I was out of an Apple Store with the screen replaced. Cost me $30 + tax.

The only people who care about this are the very tiny percentage of DIYers out there.

You didn't pay "$30", you payed for a High priced phone to begin with, then You paid and extra $$$ for apple care and even after that you still had to pay another $30.

That's a lot of money, how much was total, like 1.5k? That's not a good deal at all.

 

[ignatius345]

Apple: [glues batteries in place]

also Apple: "nobody but us should be able to repair our devices because of how difficult it is to remove batteries"

 

[imageWIS]

I don't think it's fair or appropriate to attack and characterize a member as having "money grubbing greed" solely because he is an Apple investor. You don't know anything about the guy. People get suspended for this type of thing.

I'm attacking the torll as many others have done ere as well. It's not just that someone only cares about money (that in itself is bad enough; and I'm not going to explain the morality or lack thereof of it), it's that s/he posted demonstrably incorrect facts and then doubled down about repairing Apple hardware.
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Apple: [glues batteries in place]

also Apple: "nobody but us should be able to repair our devices because of how difficult it is to remove batteries"

+a billion. The batteries could be screwed on or even friction fit and they wouldn't take up any more room.

 

[jeremiah256]

Those are safety laws, different. We have the right to buy products without fear of them unpredictably causing harm. This repair law isn't for the common good. It's just a design decision, and it only affects the usefulness of products they make, not the environment or people's wellbeing or anything, so it's a perfect example of something you can just let competition solve.

BTW, these discussions on restricting tech usually happen in the EU, not in California. Part of why innovations don't come from there.

You’re ignoring consumer rights laws. Which this falls under. And I respectfully disagree it’s not good. This issue is actually bigger than Apple. Farmers are going through the same argument with the right to repair. Tesla is pushing the issue. Ten to twenty years from now, depending on how these battles go, our world may look very different if these issues aren’t careful discussed and the laws don’t consider the long term affects on consumers.

And as for your statement on innovation, there are plenty of nations and states with far less rules, restrictions, lower taxes, etc than California, New York, Massachusetts, Washington, and other high tech states. Sure, the environment for business is important, but it takes much more than that or Kansas would be king.

 

[cube]

What harm? Harming consumers by selling defective products?

 

[curtvaughan]

I posted plenty of facts. I can see why Apple doesn't want just anyone screwing around in their hardware. Quality of repair is a huge issue.

It wasn't "their hardware" once a bill of sale indicated that you purchased it. It then is the purchaser's hardware, and you as the owner should have the right to get it repaired wherever you wish, at your discretion and your risk. If that somehow voids Apple's warranty or repair obligations, then so be it. There are two issues where Apple appears a bit nefarious:

1) They often charge excessive fees to work on out-of-warranty devices and generally will only replace complete board assemblies (such as motherboards or keyboard assemblies), refusing to test and repair individual components. This is one reason people take their devices to independent repair shops for other options.

2) They hinder independent repair shops from getting access to OEM parts and schematics, making it difficult and sometimes impossible to deliver needed repairs for customers.

Right to Repair addresses these issues. If Apple doesn't want to do component level repair, they should be willing to sell parts and schematics needed for others to do it.
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You're right that Rossman has become vehemently agitated with Apple, but he is no idiot. He's been illustrating Apple's decreasing integrity for years. He was (unsuccessfully) sued by Apple for obtaining genuine parts for customer repairs. And Apple's relentless and unjustified efforts to prevent Rossman and his like from offering their services is a tiring battle.

If you haven't been personally compromised by Apple's occassional but significant missteps, and don't see any risks with tech's roadmap in general... fine. Continue playing with your toys, but don't depend on others, like Rossman, to fight for you when those toys—and the company's policies—are flawed.

Well said! Rossmann has acquired a disdain for Apple due to his years of experience dealing with the company and his extensive time-acquired knowledge of their Mac products. That someone would call him an "idiot" is beyond my comprehension. You may choose to be offended by some of his at times "ribald" delivery (I'm generally amused), but he knows of what he speaks. Jessa Jones (iPad Rehab) is another "idiot" whom I would trust with any of my i-Thingies. Ms. Jones is a self-taught expert in micro-soldering of micro components of iPhones and iPads, who happens to also hold a PhD in molecular biology. She appears to really enjoy her work and takes pride in her company. She and Rossmann complement each other quite nicely in independent repair of Apple products that the "mother" corporation would rather avoid.

 

[apolloa]

According to this s article by The Verge, a lobbyist who works for Apple directly has got the California right to repair bill delayed until ‘at least’ 2020...

Well done him, idiot will no doubt get a nice fat bonus:

http://www.theverge.com/2019/5/1/18525542/apple-right-to-repair-bill-california-lobbyist-comptia
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Have you ever checked out Microsoft’s scores on iFixit?

If they had a minus score, it would be in there...

 

[curtvaughan]

Agreed, but you gotta see the other side. If people start repairing iPhones in large numbers and mess them up, it screws up the brand and also the secondary market.

Apple is trying to defend their business and I don’t believe it’s only because they want repair money themselves. They don’t want to standard to fall.

I think cars are a different story. More moving parts, more variability in parts, lots of easy jobs, few hard jobs. The hard jobs are still better left with the dealer, particularly if software is involved.

I think that Apple is bothered that, in trying to repair Apple devices, people are discovering that most contemporary Apple products are designed to discourage DIY or repair by non-Apple technicians. Take your out-of-warranty device to an Apple Store and you are generally offered the option of a hugely expensive repair charge, or an option to "upgrade" to a new item. Once out of warranty, Apple would prefer that customers replace devices once they fail. Their soldered-in, glued-in components and non-standard screws, etc., restrictions on purchasing of OEM parts and components, and hostility toward release of technical schematics for their hardware is illustrative of a throw-away philosophy of planned obsolescence. Apple wasn't always this way, but you have to go back a decade or so (around the time some former CEO/founder guy faded away and died) to find the Apple that gained customer loyalty and respect - it's unfortunate, as many of Apple's oldest and most loyal customers are moving to other pastures.

 

[jeremiah256]

It wasn't "their hardware" once a bill of sale indicated that you purchased it. It then is the purchaser's hardware, and you as the owner should have the right to get it repaired wherever you wish, at your discretion and your risk. If that somehow voids Apple's warranty or repair obligations, then so be it. There are two issues where Apple appears a bit nefarious:

1) They often charge excessive fees to work on out-of-warranty devices and generally will only replace complete board assemblies (such as motherboards or keyboard assemblies), refusing to test and repair individual components. This is one reason people take their devices to independent repair shops for other options.

2) They hinder independent repair shops from getting access to OEM parts and schematics, making it difficult and sometimes impossible to deliver needed repairs for customers.

Right to Repair addresses these issues. If Apple doesn't want to do component level repair, they should be willing to sell parts and schematics needed for others to do it.
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Well said! Rossmann has acquired a disdain for Apple due to his years of experience dealing with the company and his extensive time-acquired knowledge of their Mac products. That someone would call him an "idiot" is beyond my comprehension. You may choose to be offended by some of his at times "ribald" delivery (I'm generally amused), but he knows of what he speaks. Jessa Jones (iPad Rehab) is another "idiot" whom I would trust with any of my i-Thingies. Ms. Jones is a self-taught expert in micro-soldering of micro components of iPhones and iPads, who happens to also hold a PhD in molecular biology. She appears to really enjoy her work and takes pride in her company. She and Rossmann complement each other quite nicely in independent repair of Apple products that the "mother" corporation would rather avoid.

Plus, even if one does trust Apple to not abuse this power that we'd be giving them, it's not just about them.

Consumers would be screwed.

Every tech company would copy Apple and say the same thing. Everything piece of tech you'd purchase going forward would end up using some version of 'protecting the consumer or protecting our proprietary hardware/software' spiel.

 

[Brandhouse]

I wouldn't trust any other hundreds of backyard places in shopping centres that spring up saying they can repair my phone etc. They'll claim they've been trained but all they've done is watch YouTube etc. I wouldn't go anywhere other than an authorised repairer, especially while my things are still under warranty.

 

[curtvaughan]

I wouldn't trust any other hundreds of backyard places in shopping centres that spring up saying they can repair my phone etc. They'll claim they've been trained but all they've done is watch YouTube etc. I wouldn't go anywhere other than an authorised repairer, especially while my things are still under warranty.

I've mentioned this previously, but this kind of thing could be regulated with implementation of some sort of licensing of independent repair technicians. Carpenters must go through a qualifying process in order to acquire the license to operate as skilled carpenters. Some similar licensing regulations should be implemented for skilled repair technicians. I think such an implementation should accompany any Right to Repair legislation. I want to know and trust that people supervising the construction of my house are qualified to do so; I would like to have a similar guarantee accompanying shops repairing my expensive electrical/computer hardware. The construction industry has had training skills organized through apprentice/journeyman/master licensing for a long time. Something similar is needed for skilled technical repair.

Additionally, I would only take hardware under warranty to the seller/manufacturer or its officially authorized repair representatives. That is less out of concern for the quality of work than it is that the conditions of the warranty be maintained. As much as I would trust Rossmann Repair Group or iPad Rehab to repair my Apple devices, if they were under warranty, I'd only go to Apple for repair or replacement. That's just financially practical. Once out of warranty, though, the jury's out.

 

[dennyc69]

Apple is fighting Right to Repair initiatives in California by telling lawmakers that consumers could hurt themselves attempting to repair their own devices, reports Motherboard.

Over the course of the last few weeks, an Apple representative and a lobbyist for ComTIA, a trade organization representing major tech companies, have been meeting with legislators in California with the aim of killing right to repair legislation that would make it easier for customers to repair their own electronics.

Image via iFixit​

The pair have met with members of the Privacy and Consumer Protection Committee, which held a meeting on a right to repair bill this afternoon. Apple told lawmakers that customers could potentially injure themselves by accidentally puncturing the batteries in Apple devices during attempted repairs.Apple has continually lobbied against right to repair legislation across multiple states. Such legislation would require companies like Apple to provide repair parts, tools, and make repair information available to the public.

Apple devices are notoriously hard to repair given the small, proprietary components and large amounts of adhesive, with repair site iFixit giving Apple products almost universally low repair scores.

Still, the difficult repairability has not stopped thousands of small independent repair shops from making iPhone repairs. Nathan Proctor, director of consumer rights group US PIRG's right to repair campaign, told Motherboard that suggesting there are safety concerns related to spare parts and manuals is "patently absurd."

"We know that all across the country, millions of people are doing this for themselves. Millions more are taking devices to independent repair technicians," he said.

Article Link: Apple Fights Proposed Right to Repair Legislation With Warnings of Consumer Harm

 

[jeremiah256]

I wouldn't trust any other hundreds of backyard places in shopping centres that spring up saying they can repair my phone etc. They'll claim they've been trained but all they've done is watch YouTube etc. I wouldn't go anywhere other than an authorised repairer, especially while my things are still under warranty.

Then don't trust them. Do a Google/Yelp/Angie's List/whatever search and get some reviews. Ask someone you know who's used a repair service. Or, take it to an Apple approved site (especially if you're still under warranty). The regulation doesn't force customers to use 'Sanford and Son's Phone Repair Shop'. You get more choice, not less.

 

[dennyc69]

I've spent the last 20 plus years fixing all sorts of PC's laptops, etc etc... But I'm on the other end of the argument when it comes to right to repair. I am not completely for the law as it's has be presented. I'd say most of us posting have some expertise or background in repair, but were not the general public. The law is aimed keeping people safe from those who don't have any educational background or real hands on experience working on technology. Giving your equipment to someone who isn't insured and can't cover the cost of replacing an item they broke while "fixing" is a very real thing. "Yeah, I think.... I should be able to fix this for you" isn't something you want to hear from someone when you bring your device in

Then there's the data privacy issue, where no one is held accountable for your deleted data during a repair or copied to another drive and then sifted through by someone from that repair shop, and you have no idea that someone just found your credit card number and those naked pictures of your spouse you took. We here writing about this story know that you need to back up data before having it fixed and to remove those nude photos stored on your drive, but believe me there are so many people who are so computer dumb that they don't think about those things even though we do. I'm not opposed to battery changes for you iPhone, as long as the person doing it knows what the hell they are doing, but how do you know they do? Because they told you they did?

There's the rising cost of parts, if Apple or Samsung has made parts available for repair shops, the cost of manufacturing and shipping those parts gets passed on to the repair shop and then to you, the consumer.
It's not the same as it used to be when I started fixing computers, it's easy to go and buy a logic board, RAM, and a processor on Tiger Direct.com and make you a nice Windows PC tower to game on but those parts that you buy on Tiger Direct aren't priced like parts that are made for Apple or Lenovo. Asus makes those logic boards and RAM as parts, and price them accordingly.

These large companies have a completely different structure for the production, manufacturing and distribution of their hardware and software. You can be sure that if the Right to Repair law goes into effect, it's going to cost everyone more money. The big companies will have no problem passing the buck along to you.

I spent my money getting an education and certifications for what I did, and we all started in our bedrooms working on our own stuff including myself. But I don't know about the other guy or gal and if I want to take my equipment in to get repaired, I want to make sure the people doing the fixing know what they are doing and have the resources to back up their work.

The MacBook I'm using to write this post on has been in to Apple for repair (bad Touch ID sensor) and I know that the hardware used in the repair came from Apple, and an Apple technician worked on it, and I know my data and privacy was kept in mind and in tact. I can't always get that from the Best Buy guys or some other computer repair shop (even though you would like to think the person behind the counter is a good and smart repair person and a lot of them are).

The last being how everything has gotten thinner and lighter: I have a 2010 MBP that I upgraded myself, maxing out the RAM and putting in an SSD drive. Those upgrades made it a new machine, so much faster, it was like a new laptop. When I compare the thickness of my 2010 to the 2017 MBP I have now, amazingly thinner. Not all, but a lot of that has to do with how the newer MBP and other laptops are made. A lot of parts were made smaller or changed in order to reduce the weight of the device. (When you're carrying around six pounds worth of tech all day, it gets heavy and it wears you out. I did a lot of traveling doing tech stuff for banks. Those people who have never a traveling job don't know what it means to have smaller and lighter devices, it means a lot.)

So, I'm not for the "Right to Repair" as iFixit It has it, for them it just means selling more of their tools and increasing their profits. It's their business model. I believe not everyone who thinks they can fix a PC or laptop should be out there working on their neighbors stuff when they aren't insured and don't have the resources at hand to back up their work when something goes wrong, and there are a lot of people out there that fit that to a tee.

Remember when Google gave Android to any one who wanted it? Now thanks to Google's hippie attitude, Android is the worlds largest mobile malware platform. Giving everyone the right to repair and call themselves a repair tech with no formal training will cost everyone alot more money and if your not careful, a lawsuit.

 

[Hieveryone]

At the risk of getting a lot of heat...

Is anyone else concerned if this right to repair thing passes then it would compromise apple products?

What if the next iPhone has to be made 1 inch think b/c "Mr. Right To Repair" dude gotta change out his battery

I would rather just have apple make it as thin and good as need be and just forget about repairing it myself

Now if they can keep the products as thin and nice and efficicient but also allow us to repair easily then sure i'd probably be all for this right to repair

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

I might harm myself using a steak knife to cut a steak....I'm glad Apple is there to protect me against myself!

 

[fairuz]

You’re ignoring consumer rights laws. Which this falls under. And I respectfully disagree it’s not good. This issue is actually bigger than Apple. Farmers are going through the same argument with the right to repair. Tesla is pushing the issue. Ten to twenty years from now, depending on how these battles go, our world may look very different if these issues aren’t careful discussed and the laws don’t consider the long term affects on consumers.

And as for your statement on innovation, there are plenty of nations and states with far less rules, restrictions, lower taxes, etc than California, New York, Massachusetts, Washington, and other high tech states. Sure, the environment for business is important, but it takes much more than that or Kansas would be king.

I'm not ignoring consumer rights, but that has nothing to do with this. That's about deceptive practices. People know exactly what they're buying here. Yes, I don't argue that this law has no effect, just that it's not the right way to effect things.

Other states don't have fewer restrictions AFAIK, except for environmental ones that just affect manufacturing cost, and lower taxes maybe. They don't do stuff like this. Europe is pretty comparable in other ways to populous US states, and somehow not a single place there manages to be a tech innovator.

 

[jeremiah256]

I'm not ignoring consumer rights, but that has nothing to do with this. That's about deceptive practices. People know exactly what they're buying here. Yes, I don't argue that this law has no effect, just that it's not the right way to effect things.

Other states don't have fewer restrictions AFAIK, except for environmental ones that just affect manufacturing cost, and lower taxes maybe. They don't do stuff like this. Europe is pretty comparable in other ways to populous US states, and somehow not a single place there manages to be a tech innovator.

While protecting consumers vs deceptive practices and harm makes up the vast majority of consumer protection/rights laws, there are also laws the are more focused on providing consumers the information they need to make informed choices, such as country of origin labeling laws and supply chain transparency laws.

Massachusetts, by the way, is the lead in the US on the right to repair, first taking on the automobile industry and it was passed via a ballot initiative. The voters passed it with an easy majority. That was automobiles, this is electronics, but there are twenty states with similar proposals about electronics.

 

[fairuz]

While protecting consumers vs deceptive practices and harm makes up the vast majority of consumer protection/rights laws, there are also laws the are more focused on providing consumers the information they need to make informed choices, such as country of origin labeling laws and supply chain transparency laws.

Massachusetts, by the way, is the lead in the US on the right to repair, first taking on the automobile industry and it was passed via a ballot initiative. The voters passed it with an easy majority. That was automobiles, this is electronics, but there are twenty states with similar proposals about electronics.

Available information is fair too, and it's kinda part of anti-deception, but this isn't that either. With autos, the law almost makes sense because people are unlikely to know how much everything costs, but IMO it's still not a good idea cause there are good enough metrics to use for that (e.g. lease costs). Phones are much simpler, and Apple tells you exactly how much it costs to fix things, so what's wrong with that?

 

[jeremiah256]

Available information is fair too, and it's kinda part of anti-deception, but this isn't that either. With autos, the law almost makes sense because people are unlikely to know how much everything costs, but IMO it's still not a good idea cause there are good enough metrics to use for that (e.g. lease costs). Phones are much simpler, and Apple tells you exactly how much it costs to fix things, so what's wrong with that?

I believe Apple does not provide a way for third parties (shops or individuals) to get access to the parts and schematics that they provide their authorized dealers. Going back to cars, it's like Toyota refusing to provide the parts and information to replace a part and telling consumers you have to go to their shop or nothing.

 

[fairuz]

I just realized the title makes it sound like Apple is threatening consumers with physical harm, lol
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I believe Apple does not provide a way for third parties (shops or individuals) to get access to the parts and schematics that they provide their authorized dealers. Going back to cars, it's like Toyota refusing to provide the parts and information to replace a part and telling consumers you have to go to their shop or nothing.

Oh, I meant information about usage of the product, so the consumer knows what they're buying. They don't need to know about schematics. I still don't see the problem with your Toyota example. AFAIK they could do that if they really wanted to, but they probably don't want to. There are car companies that do what you described or something in between, e.g. Maserati, and it's fine, just means the car basically costs more.

 

[SSDGUY]

This desire to have X, Y or Z... “Without the damn government’s hands on me or my stuff!”... is as utopian a fantasy as any. America’s version of capitalism, free markets and democratic rule are not necessarily synergistic. Capitalism and effective democratic governance are actually bitter rivals. And lately, capitalism has been winning at the cost of personal freedom, personal protections from abusive and deceitful business tactics and also at the cost of *trying* to keep the environment and (all the plants and animals that depend on it) from knocked over with a steam shovel.

Federal and state government, with all its “laws” (as little as people seem to care for bureaucracy and politicians) is the only thing that’s keeping our brand of capitalism from destroying itself overnight. I’m not exaggerating here, either.

People who claim to be fiscally conservative but socially progressive also hold on to a similarly impossible catch-22. You don’t need have to be fiscally liberal to be socially progressive. But fiscal conservatives—especially as they exist right now—will bleed the poor dry just to add an extra 1/2 percent return to their already essentially non-taxed asset portfolios.

I’m not a fan on the Bernie Sanders semi-socialist agenda, but if I have to choose between that and a Koch Brothers endorsed, Ayn Rand approved “f— the poor, they should’ve been born smarter,” then that decision is made quite easy for me. The longer whomever have stolen the label of Republicanism refuse to talk or compromise, the stronger the ”socialist” movement grows, which is, again, a form of capitalism destroying itself. And in a very applicable way, why you’ll never have an “easy to repair” phone without some kind of intervention by someone with power, i.e., lawmakers.

What's that sound in old cartoons when someone is seeing stars after a wallop over the head? "Bugadabugada?" Something like that.

 

[tubomac]

Please Tim Apple, do not lie anymore!
Just say you want more money and I may buy your product anyway (but onl because I’m ecosystem addicted).

 

[hellopupy]

There is no such thing as a Right to Repair > Apple's and their shareholders' private ownership and right to determine the direction of their business.

If Apple does not provide a solution to the consumer's urge to self-repair, the market will create solutions for it or people will walk away, thats how supply and demand works, the very reason Apple exists is to solve a problem and fill a demand.