Sidebar Sidebar
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

Apple Files Countersuit Against Nokia

dguisinger said:
Typically when patents are put in a pool for licensing, there is an organization setup to handle the licensing.

For example, VoIP compression codecs. Many of these have patents from 30+ organizations, you don't deal directly with those organizations, you deal with a organization setup by the whole group to make it easy to get a license to use these patents, and the license only covers using said patents for the original combined purpose... meaning I wouldn't be able to get access to a patent used in G.729 and use it on something else without contacting and licensing from the original patent holder.

So... my question is two fold:
1) Why is Apple having to deal with Nokia directly on their GSM patents, is there not a group setup handling the patents like other standard patent pools?

2) When licensing a standard, there is almost always a set fee that is non-negotiable setup by the pool process, and there is NO reciprocal licensing. Having a separate entity handling those licensing agreements in such a way prevents a company from trying to do what Nokia is doing, leverage their ownership of patents to force a company to give up rights to patents that aren't automatically theirs.

Of course, there are plenty of examples of abuse. Take Rambus. Rambus was part of the working group that created DDR memory technologies. Part of the agreement was the companies involved must disclose all patents pending or issued that would conflict and provide them to the committee. Rambus didn't, then after DDR memory became standard, sued everyone for violating their agreement. Its a backdoor approach to suing.

It appears Apple is trying to license on the same terms as everyone else, and is completely willing to and should be able to. Nokia is trying to force Apple to give away the farm so Nokia doesn't step on Apple's innovations; so they try to block Apple from making a GSM product using industry standard license for a fee practices to force Apple to hand over their touch patents.
Click to expand...

the licensing organization may have been set up when phones were just used to talk on. they may claim the iphone is a portable computer and is not covered by the GSM license
 
maelstromr said:
I'm guessing you're talking about INvention. So your analysis is - only Thomas Edison can make money off any phone-related patent? Brilliant. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

maelstromr said:
It's always nice to be remembered.

I hate grammar nazi-ing as much as the next guy, but can't we all calm down and do one, just one, reread of our angry posts before clicking?
Click to expand...

Is FACT nazi-ing less hate-worthy?!?! :)
 
Some of Gruber's musings

Apple Says Nokia Wanted Cross-License for Apple iPhone Patents

Engadget’s Nilay Patel is reading Apple’s filing, and I think he’s found the heart of the disagreement:

Apple says Nokia’s patents aren’t actually essential to GSM / UMTS, denies infringing them, and says they’re invalid and / or unenforceable anyway. Apple also says Nokia wanted unreasonable license terms for the patents, including a cross-license for Apple’s various iPhone device patents as part of any deal, which Apple clearly wasn’t willing to do.

The big question about this dispute all along has been why Apple didn’t just license Nokia’s GSM/UMTS patents. Supposedly every other GSM phone maker (or at least all the other major ones) does, and they’re relatively cheap. The answer is that Nokia didn’t just want licensing fees from Apple: they wanted cross-license rights to Apple’s own iPhone patents.

★
Daring Fireball 09-12-11 12:47 PM John Gruber http://daringfireball.net/

http://www.engadget.com/2009/12/11/apple-countersues-nokia-for-infringing-13-patents/
 
Full text of Apple's filing

http://digitaldaily.allthingsd.com/20091211/apple-countersues-nokia/

In 2007, Apple introduced the iPhone a ground-breaking device that allowed users access to the functionality of the already popular iPod on a revolutionary mobile phone and Internet device. The iPhone is a converged device that allows users to access and ever expanding set of software features to take and send pictures, play music, play games do research, serve as a GPS device and much more….The iPhone platform has caused a revolutionary change in the mobile phone category.

In contrast, Nokia made a different business decision and remained focused on traditional mobile wireless handsets with conventional user interfaces. As a result, Nokia has rapidly lost share in the market for high-end mobile phones. Nokia has admitted that, as a result of the iPhone launch, “the market changed suddenly and [Nokia was] not fast enough changing with it.

In response, Nokia chose to copy the iPhone, especially its enormously popular and patented design and user interface….

As Anssi Vanjoki, Nokia’s executive Vice President and General Manager of Multimedia, stated at Nokia’s GoPlay event in 2007 when asked about the similarities of Nokia’s new offerings to the already released iPhone: “if there is something good in the world, we copy with pride.” True to this quote, Nokia has demonstrated its willingness to copy Apple’s iPhone ideas as well as Apple’s basic computing technologies, all while demanding Apple pay for access to Nokia’s purported standards essential patent. Apple seeks redress for this behavior.
 
RogueWarrior65 said:
Somebody 'splain to me why it is that piddly-ass companies or hulking giants with zero new ideas are able to come along YEARS after a competing and widely successful product is released and sue. If you're Nokia, you figured out within days of the iPhone's release that they might be infringing on your patent. IMHO, if you wait to sue until Apple dominates the market, you're just being a child throwing a temper tantrum.
Click to expand...

Although this may be true, I come to realize the same thing when I hear of a company suing another over something. I think it has something to do with getting a iphone and disecting it and perhaps getting R&D papers from Apple as well as the paperwork for the iphone from the Patent office which could just take time to do based on all the Patent suits being thrown around. If I'm wrong, please let me know. I'm curious on why it takes so long as well but that's my best guess on why it does.

Keith
 
*LTD* said:
http://digitaldaily.allthingsd.com/20091211/apple-countersues-nokia/

In 2007, Apple introduced the iPhone a ground-breaking device that allowed users access to the functionality of the already popular iPod on a revolutionary mobile phone and Internet device. The iPhone is a converged device that allows users to access and ever expanding set of software features to take and send pictures, play music, play games do research, serve as a GPS device and much more….The iPhone platform has caused a revolutionary change in the mobile phone category.

In contrast, Nokia made a different business decision and remained focused on traditional mobile wireless handsets with conventional user interfaces. As a result, Nokia has rapidly lost share in the market for high-end mobile phones. Nokia has admitted that, as a result of the iPhone launch, “the market changed suddenly and [Nokia was] not fast enough changing with it.

In response, Nokia chose to copy the iPhone, especially its enormously popular and patented design and user interface….

As Anssi Vanjoki, Nokia’s executive Vice President and General Manager of Multimedia, stated at Nokia’s GoPlay event in 2007 when asked about the similarities of Nokia’s new offerings to the already released iPhone: “if there is something good in the world, we copy with pride.” True to this quote, Nokia has demonstrated its willingness to copy Apple’s iPhone ideas as well as Apple’s basic computing technologies, all while demanding Apple pay for access to Nokia’s purported standards essential patent. Apple seeks redress for this behavior.
Click to expand...

OK I was going to mention Creative Labs had it's patent UI used by Apple but that was for the iPods, Nano and Mini.. Not the iPhone. I could've sworn that was the case but it wasn't.

Article here:
http://www.macsimumnews.com/index.p...creative_100_million_in_ipod_related_lawsuit/
 
Wow, some of those patents Apple are claiming infringement for are dating back to 1992 and relate to some really low level user functionality.

Anyone knowledgeable enough to explain what they really mean in laymans terms?

Object-orientated Notification system

Patent Link

'a combined graphic and text processing system in which a user can invoke a dynamic object at the location of the cursor and invoke any of a variety of functions from the object. This type of natural interaction with a user improves the user interface and makes the application much more intuitive.'

Reads like a basic core function of an operating system ? I really don't know enough to comment but wouldn't that basically knock Nokia out of OS game totally?
 
When Palm or whoever kept spoofing Apple USB keys to gain access to iTunes for their music player, Apple went to the USB committee only after the other guy did, then simply showed they were compliant and the other guy was not.

This lawsuit feels like about the same thing. The original plaintiff made a claim Apple unintentionally violated their patents, Apple said those patents were part of a consortium with stated licensing terms they were willing and able to comply with, if not actively prevented from doing so.

Then comes the response that once you wake up the Apple legal team they do a few weeks of research into the many and varied patents they own, the other guy is violating, initially unintentionally, but then as a result of public statements, the legal standard drifts to intentionally.

Looks like not only will Apple prevail on net (despite nit-picky details), but they will get most of their legal costs paid by the other guy.

This case looks ripe for a fast and favorable settlement. :)

Rocketman

Beyond patent trolls and patent grabbers, there are patent expirations. Build a business on exploiting every patent as it expires.
 
Nokia's post settlement mobile phone

;)

old_telephone.jpg
 
*LTD* said:
Apple Says Nokia Wanted Cross-License for Apple iPhone Patents

Engadget’s Nilay Patel is reading Apple’s filing, and I think he’s found the heart of the disagreement:

Apple says Nokia’s patents aren’t actually essential to GSM / UMTS, denies infringing them, and says they’re invalid and / or unenforceable anyway. Apple also says Nokia wanted unreasonable license terms for the patents, including a cross-license for Apple’s various iPhone device patents as part of any deal, which Apple clearly wasn’t willing to do.

The big question about this dispute all along has been why Apple didn’t just license Nokia’s GSM/UMTS patents. Supposedly every other GSM phone maker (or at least all the other major ones) does, and they’re relatively cheap. The answer is that Nokia didn’t just want licensing fees from Apple: they wanted cross-license rights to Apple’s own iPhone patents.

★
Daring Fireball 09-12-11 12:47 PM John Gruber http://daringfireball.net/

http://www.engadget.com/2009/12/11/apple-countersues-nokia-for-infringing-13-patents/
Click to expand...

In the words of Apple fanboys... there patents there rules, pay to play.
 
At Nokia

Nokia: Darn, Apple is leaving us in the dust with these smartphones. We need to copy it as soon as possible, but if we do Apple's lawyers will be all over us like black on kettle. Wait a minute, if we can get Apple to license their iPhone patents to us, for free, then it's no problem. OK. Let's see if we can squeeze them with a few additions to the licensing terms of our tech, and if not, well, we can always sue.
 
Finally, a fair suit in reference to Apple

Finally, this is the first time I hear Apple file a [counter-]suit (well, beside the rather lenient answer to those all-too-blatant PsyStar antics)! It had always been all sorts of charlatans and impostors desperate for stealing a million or two from Apple like vultures on a lion kill!
Good, Apple! You slit masai's with his own spear! Good, proceed in this fashion, give them the taste of their own medicine!
 
*LTD* said:
As Anssi Vanjoki, Nokia’s executive Vice President and General Manager of Multimedia, stated at Nokia’s GoPlay event in 2007 when asked about the similarities of Nokia’s new offerings to the already released iPhone: “if there is something good in the world, we copy with pride.” True to this quote, Nokia has demonstrated its willingness to copy Apple’s iPhone ideas as well as Apple’s basic computing technologies, all while demanding Apple pay for access to Nokia’s purported standards essential patent. Apple seeks redress for this behavior.[/I]
Click to expand...

An interesting bit of musing from Gruber. Sadly, and not for the first time, he's off the mark and Vanjoki's quote is irrelevant to this case. Nokia sued, Apple have countersued. This is pretty normal for patent infringement.

It's just legal poker. Undoubtedly they've infringed each others patents over the years and this is just about balancing the books. I suspect that Nokia will be looking to introduce multi-touch in their new phones and the whole point of this exercise is to say "let it go: we can hurt you if you want and you can hurt us back and we both lose out".
 
*LTD* said:
http://digitaldaily.allthingsd.com/20091211/apple-countersues-nokia/

In 2007, Apple introduced the iPhone a ground-breaking device that allowed users access to the functionality of the already popular iPod on a revolutionary mobile phone and Internet device. The iPhone is a converged device that allows users to access and ever expanding set of software features to take and send pictures, play music, play games do research, serve as a GPS device and much more….The iPhone platform has caused a revolutionary change in the mobile phone category.
Click to expand...


In all honesty, Nokia has had full on touch smart phones way before iPhone (the predecessors of their n900 and some others). Apparently they were only available in Europe and some only in Scandinavia.
 
alphaod said:
If Nokia wanted they probably have a few hundred they throw on Apple.
Click to expand...

This is so true. If Apple wins with their 13 then Nokia will have to redesign some phones, if Nokia wins with all of their patents Apple will have to stop making phones altogether.

The fanboys will probably try to tell us all how smartphones didnt even exist until apple created the iphone.
 
NoSmokingBandit said:
This is so true. If Apple wins with their 13 then Nokia will have to redesign some phones, if Nokia wins with all of their patents Apple will have to stop making phones altogether.

The fanboys will probably try to tell us all how smartphones didnt even exist until apple created the iphone.
Click to expand...

You need vitamins.
 
NoSmokingBandit said:
This is so true. If Apple wins with their 13 then Nokia will have to redesign some phones, if Nokia wins with all of their patents Apple will have to stop making phones altogether.

The fanboys will probably try to tell us all how smartphones didnt even exist until apple created the iphone.
Click to expand...

The problem is that Nokia may be compelled to license their patents as a result of them being a part of the GSM standard. Apple, on the other hand, is under no such obligation.

A very likely outcome of this mess is that Apple pays a fair license fee to Nokia (F/RAND, their chief complaint from the start) and Nokia is given a cease and desist order on marketing their infringing devices. A second likely outcome would be for Apple to pay a fair license fee to Nokia and Nokia to pay a massive sum of money for a limited license to key Apple patents.

Highly unlikely: that Nokia and Apple both just turn around and walk away, Nokia unable to sell OO and touchscreen devices and Apple unable to use GSM.

IMHO, looking at the two suits, unless there's not much to Apples patent claims (and giving the same benefit of doubt to Nokia's patent claims), Apple should end up significantly "ahead" in any deal which is to be made here. They simply have a more compelling case for voluntary infringement.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.
Top Bottom
Back