Apple Hires Former Tesla Engineering VP With Expertise in Car Interiors

[jerryk]

Latest MCU? Do you mean HW3? MCU is different from the AP hardware.

Current AP software that's in your car right now is not representative of all the work that the AP and Tesla Vision teams have been working on for the past several years. It only represents a limited subset of functions that Tesla sees as viable for public use. There's probably 2 years worth of features that you have yet to experience because it's not enabled on the current firmware yet. Things like reading parking signs, stop signs, special road markings, path prediction, bike lane detection, street intersection detection, curb detection, parking navigation, and etc...have yet to be made for public use.

My Model 3 works wonders even on the AP2.5 chip and that's only working at half the resolution and limited dynamic range.

Agree that Andrej and company are working on some great features and have made huge strides. Their latest demos look very impressive . But they will be the first to admit they are juggling the compute budget to effectively run the complex models they are working with and need to build more of in the future. From what I have seen their NN backbone is very complex and getting more complex. My feeling is they will need to make a hardware update before they can reach SAE Level 5 which would be required for a service where you dispatch driver-less cars to various locations.

 

[Veinticinco]

Tesla is a modern-day DeLorean.

Ahead of its time but doomed to financial failure in parallel with the ignominious downfall of its founder.

Even now, the EV competition from the traditional suspects (German and others) are threatening to fatally undermine what Tesla has achieved to date.

As for an Apple Car, as likely to see the light of day as that other feat of engineering wizardry, AirPower.

 

[jerryk]

There is a 0% chance this winds up being better than owning a car for low income people. The brilliant thing about car ownership is you can pay off your car and not owe any more payments on it. You can keep a car for years without paying much at all. The idea of paying Uber or Lyft (because those will be the two options) $300 a month in perpetuity for my mobility is disgusting.

This kind of "it's the future" stuff is myopic and urban-centric. It's not rooted in reality for a huge percentage of Americans.

If you budget is limited, cars can be a huge drain. First there is operating costs: fuel, oil, etc. Second there are overhead costs, insurance, maintenance, registration, smog certification, etc. And finally there are repair costs. Working in repair shops I have had to tell people they needed repairs that were close to or exceeded their monthly income. I once had to tell on kid the 8 year old Toyota he bought for $2000 needed a new/rebuilt transmission and the bill would be over $800. He broke down crying. Bad day for him and me, but there was nothing I could do.

So if you own a car, you better have the cash reserves to keep it running.

 

[44267547]

Teslas aren't attractive vehicles.

I’m not a fan of the ‘Model’ 3 design so much, but I do think the ‘Model S’ design cues are much more intricate and sleek looking. They’re fairly sharp looking from my standpoint

 

[AustinIllini]

If you budget is limited, cars can be a huge drain. First there is operating costs, fuel. Second there are overhead costs, insurance, maintenance, registration, smog certification, etc. And finally there are repair costs. Working in repair shops I have had to tell people they needed repairs that were close to or exceeded their monthly income. I once had to tell on kid the 8 year old Toyota he bought for $2000 needed a new/rebuilt transmission and the bill would be over $800. He broke down crying. Bad day for him and me, but there was nothing I could do.

Everything you are saying in bold decreases drastically when cars are electric. Once you can get an electric civic for under $20k, there most of these costs go away.



In a non-car ownership environment, all those costs will be pushed on to the customer in a monthly fee, but with two additional costs pushed on to the customer:

1. Depreciation - There will be a standard of car Uber and Lyft will allow to keep on the road. The depreciation on the new cars are all passed on to the customer
2. Profit - Uber and Lyft would charge an additional 20% overhead just to profit and that number would increase

And the fee for transportation to these companies run in perpetuity. You will always have to pay them and there won't be contracts so that $200 because the ride-share duopoly feels they need to up profit.
[doublepost=1563896793][/doublepost]

I’m not a fan of the ‘Model’ 3 design so much, but I do think the ‘Model S’ design cues are much more intricate and sleek looking. They’re fairly sharp looking from my standpoint

Problem with the S is the price. It's a $40,000 interior in an $80,000 car. The design is definitely better than the 3 but all the $35-$50K cars you can buy today look better for much less.

 

[Winni]

I cannot wait to see the price of Apple Car Pro. I am sure even if I started saving now I would not be able to afford it.

That. And unlike other cars, you can only charge or refuel it at an iFuel Station owned and operated by Apple. If you want to listen to music, you need an iPhone and an Apple Music subscription and without an Apple Watch, the doors won't open. Of course, after two years the engine won't be receiving any firmware updates anymore it will become unsafe to drive the car, so you need to "upgrade" (read: replace it with a newer model).

Since Apple will have the car assembled in China, replacement parts will be impossible to obtain because of your lovely president's trade war with China.

 

[jerryk]

Everything you are saying in bold decreases drastically when cars are electric. Once you can get an electric civic for under $20k, there most of these costs go away.



In a non-car ownership environment, all those costs will be pushed on to the customer in a monthly fee, but with two additional costs pushed on to the customer:

1. Depreciation - There will be a standard of car Uber and Lyft will allow to keep on the road. The depreciation on the new cars are all passed on to the customer
2. Profit - Uber and Lyft would charge an additional 20% overhead just to profit and that number would increase

And the fee for transportation to these companies run in perpetuity. You will always have to pay them and there won't be contracts so that $200 because the ride-share duopoly feels they need to up profit.

Agree the costs are definitely lower with an EV. Even my Model X is very cheap to keep because it is so simple. 20 moving parts in the driver train versus 1,000 in an ICE vehicle.

But, car ownership does have a lot of fixed costs. Insurance and registration still exist and states are now adding additional EV fees for registering EVs to compensate for the loss of gas taxes used to fund road repairs.

Now, the original premise for debating car ownership versus a service in this thread was not based on the Uber/Lyft model. It was the idea that you would be able to summon a car when you wanted it. I find that attractive because I can use it when I need it and not have dedicate space to garage/park the car the 98% of time I do not need it, plus the additional costs of ownership.

If they could guarantee me a model X in 3 minutes of me pushing a button on my app I would look seriously at not buying a new one in a few years.

 

[predation]

Here is my opinion, which is the only actual truth: Tesla interiors aren’t that great as far as aesthetic consistency, use of materials, etc. The best commercial interiors will be found in Audi cars. I have spoken, and the conversation is thus over.

agreed. Tesla interior material is trash.

Straight




TRASH.

 

[shplock]

Teslas aren't attractive vehicles.

In your opinion maybe but in hundreds of thousands of people disagree with you as do many more millions of people who search for Tesla online more than any other EV.
[doublepost=1563904777][/doublepost]

Should have bought a German car. All-around better design and interior.

Apple should have taking an exec from Audi, Merc, or BMW.
[doublepost=1563826957][/doublepost]
Their design and execution are below Apple, honestly.

You would have to look at a pretty upscale brand to get Apple quality execution.

Actually the germans should take lessons from Tesla because Tesla are taking the lunches of the Germans. BMW are losing sales hand over fists to Tesla and have lost over 25% sales in the past 12 months to Tesla. One of the top 5 traded cars for a Tesla Model 3 is...yes you guessed it...a BMW!
If it ws tat easy to build a great and compelling EV the how come Apple still have not managed to build an EV since 2015??
How come everyone in the business knows that their project Titan is in disarray and was from the start.
Tesla are over 7 years ahead of everyone, no amount of wishing otherwise makes it true.
Apple have no chance of making an EV that is going to be compelling or sell in high enough numbers. I mean it is one thing to outsource making iPhones and iPads etc but I can not see Foxconn suddenly was producing cars nor can I see any other company being able to mass produce the numbers Apple will need.
[doublepost=1563904832][/doublepost]

The interior is literally the worst part about Tesla...

No, not at all.

 

[AustinIllini]

In your opinion maybe but in hundreds of thousands of people disagree with you as do many more millions of people who search for Tesla online more than any other EV. How many EVs are there
[doublepost=1563904777][/doublepost]

Actually the germans should take lessons from Tesla because Tesla are taking the lunches of the Germans. BMW are losing sales hand over fists to Tesla and have lost over 25% sales in the past 12 months to Tesla. One of the top 5 traded cars for a Tesla Model 3 is...yes you guessed it...a BMW! BMW was the dominant player. Also, Tesla is going broke trying to keep up with the German.
If it ws tat easy to build a great and compelling EV the how come Apple still have not managed to build an EV since 2015?? Apple does not manufacture anything. There is a process to manufacturing (interesting fact, Tesla ignores most of the foundation of modern automotive manufacturing, that's why their quality is horrible.
How come everyone in the business knows that their project Titan is in disarray and was from the start.
Tesla are over 7 years ahead of everyone, no amount of wishing otherwise makes it true. Actually, they're not. While their battery technology is truly great, everything else that makes a car a car is substandard on Tesla. Even the automation tech advancement is unclear at other companies, because most auto manufacturers don't treat their drivers as crash dummies. If VW had, since the launch of autopilot, killed as many people as Tesla had, the government would own them. The fact is, Tesla is the darling and it's fine if they kill their drivers as long as Elon Musk goes on about his nonsense promises.
Apple have no chance of making an EV that is going to be compelling or sell in high enough numbers. I mean it is one thing to outsource making iPhones and iPads etc but I can not see Foxconn suddenly was producing cars nor can I see any other company being able to mass produce the numbers Apple will need. Foxconn could build cars tomorrow and be better at it than Tesla is. However, if Apple were interested in top notch quality and reliability, a partnership with Toyota or Honda would be their safest bet, while for luxury Toyota or BMW or Audi would be a better bet.
[doublepost=1563904832][/doublepost]

No, not at all.

My comments regarding your non-arguments are in bold.

And this is ignoring the fact that Tesla is broke

 

[farewelwilliams]

Wow, just 8500 cars sold in the Netherlands and still number one?! They really must be a bycicle country.

tesla only started shipping to netherlands a few months ago.
[doublepost=1563910306][/doublepost]

There is a 0% chance this winds up being better than owning a car for low income people. The brilliant thing about car ownership is you can pay off your car and not owe any more payments on it. You can keep a car for years without paying much at all. The idea of paying Uber or Lyft (because those will be the two options) $300 a month in perpetuity for my mobility is disgusting.

This kind of "it's the future" stuff is myopic and urban-centric. It's not rooted in reality for a huge percentage of Americans.

what do you mean "not any more payments"? you still have to pay auto insurance. as well as maintenance. as well as fuel. and a place to store it. and assuming the low income people can come up with a chunk of money on a down payment. and they'll have to do all of this over again every 5-10 years

subscription service rides makes a lot more sense than owning a used car for low income people.

 

[farewelwilliams]

Tesla needed to make far more progress before competition really starts. They are still not making money and other manufacturers are going to start building EVs when the market and tech is ready.

The car business is ultra competitive. There is almost no brand loyalty.

people been saying competition has been coming since 2012. i think there was an article saying something like "Watch out Tesla! The iPace is coming" written several years ago and finally iPace was released recently (which didn't deliver on the promises made).

regardless, so far no production EV has beaten 2012's model s in both range and performance.

building an electric vehicle is hard. you can't just take out the combustion engine and stick battery in. tesla has a huge head-start in this and it'll be a while before someone catches up
[doublepost=1563910910][/doublepost]

Agree that Andrej and company are working on some great features and have made huge strides. Their latest demos look very impressive . But they will be the first to admit they are juggling the compute budget to effectively run the complex models they are working with and need to build more of in the future. From what I have seen their NN backbone is very complex and getting more complex. My feeling is they will need to make a hardware update before they can reach SAE Level 5 which would be required for a service where you dispatch driver-less cars to various locations.

i doubt the chip team designed the hw3 chip without any guidance from Andrej.

 

[AustinIllini]

tesla only started shipping to netherlands a few months ago.
[doublepost=1563910306][/doublepost]
what do you mean "not any more payments"? you still have to pay auto insurance. as well as maintenance. as well as fuel. and a place to store it. and assuming the low income people can come up with a chunk of money on a down payment. and they'll have to do all of this over again every 5-10 years

subscription service rides makes a lot more sense than owning a used car for low income people.

You're far overvaluing the cost of insurance for a car that should drive itself. An affordable, self driving, electric car will negate the need for a subscription service.

A subscription service for cars is a loser for the poor. Look no further than the rising cost of all subscription services across the board.

 

[Baymowe335]

people been saying competition has been coming since 2012. i think there was an article saying something like "Watch out Tesla! The iPace is coming" written several years ago and finally iPace was released recently (which didn't deliver on the promises made).

regardless, so far no production EV has beaten 2012's model s in both range and performance.

building an electric vehicle is hard. you can't just take out the combustion engine and stick battery in. tesla has a huge head-start in this and it'll be a while before someone catches up
[doublepost=1563910910][/doublepost]

i doubt the chip team designed the hw3 chip without any guidance from Andrej.

Tesla has said they'll be profitable since 2012. The competition comes when it makes sense financially. As you see Tesla continuing to lose money, the costs are not there yet for battery tech, charging stations, and overall feasibility of the tech in the real world.

Do you think BMW and Mercedes are puzzled with EV tech or that they are just waiting for the time it makes sense?

Other car manufacturers aren't like, "Wow, Tesla is making a killing on that EV model! Let's go do that." They will watch Tesla self destruct, copy the technology, and later profit.

This is similar to Apple's iPhone, but the key difference with Apple is they made money AND were 5 years ahead of the market. Cars don't work the same way. People aren't brand loyal and there are MANY capable car manufacturers.

 

[AustinIllini]

Tesla has said they'll be profitable since 2012. The competition comes when it makes sense financially. As you see Tesla continuing to lose money, the costs are there yet for battery tech, charging stations, and overall feasibility of the tech in the real world.

Do you think BMW and Mercedes are puzzled with EV tech or that they are just waiting for the time it makes sense?

This is the thing. It's even more obvious with the automation software, too. Audi and Cadillac are leading on the self-driving car front, but Tesla is the only company stupid enough to kill its own drivers with an autopilot system that isn't an autopilot.

Electric Cars are a thing and will continue to be a thing. However, Audi and BMW are going to continue to make Audis and BMWs. What you'll get is an electric car with all the characteristics of Audi and BMW. With Tesla, you get an overpriced low quality car with an amazing battery and not much else (poor ergonomics, below average quality)

 

[jerryk]

This is the thing. It's even more obvious with the automation software, too. Audi and Cadillac are leading on the self-driving car front, but Tesla is the only company stupid enough to kill its own drivers with an autopilot system that isn't an autopilot.

Electric Cars are a thing and will continue to be a thing. However, Audi and BMW are going to continue to make Audis and BMWs. What you'll get is an electric car with all the characteristics of Audi and BMW. With Tesla, you get an overpriced low quality car with an amazing battery and not much else (poor ergonomics, below average quality)

Actually Tesla has many leads over the rest.

1. Best efficiency - longest range per KW
   
2. Best self-driving system
3. Car service at service center, your home, or your work.
   
4. Supercharging network with large span and highest reliability
5. Continuous update of car via over-the-air update. Recent updates increased speed, acceleration, and range at no cost.

As someone who owns 2 BMWs (2011 335 and 2016 X3) I greatly prefer my Model X. So far no problems with Model X in 15 months. Unlike the 335 which had rattles from day one (mostly cured by me, when BMW dealer refused to do anything about them), and a failed turbo at 20,000 miles.

 

[Baymowe335]

Actually Tesla has many leads over the rest.

1. Best efficiency - longest range per KW
   
2. Best self-driving system
3. Car service at service center, your home, or your work.
   
4. Supercharging network with large span and highest reliability
5. Continuous update of car via over-the-air update. Recent updates increased speed, acceleration, and range at no cost.

As someone who owns 2 BMWs (2011 335 and 2016 X3) I greatly prefer my Model X.

Tesla IS an EV company. They need to be WAY ahead and WAY ahead in terms of profitability. Once BMW and Mercedes get serious about it, there will be a much different story. It's a hobby for them at this point. BMW has legendary production ability. Their factories make Tesla's old Toyota factory look like a lego factory.

Tesla's "best" self driving system is also its worst enemy. It has a lot of downsides, bugs, and very public bad press when there is a mistake.

I'd suggest driving your 335 harder if you prefer it over the X. I also own a 335i and have driven a model X. The handling and fun to drive factor is so much better in the 335. IMO, of course. The 335 also looks better, has better build quality, and better range (LOL).

 

[jerryk]

Tesla IS an EV company. They need to be WAY ahead and WAY ahead in terms of profitability. Once BMW and Mercedes get serious about it, there will be a much different story. It's a hobby for them at this point. BMW has legendary production ability. Their factories make Tesla's old Toyota factory look like a lego factory.

Tesla's "best" self driving system is also its worst enemy. It has a lot of downsides, bugs, and very public bad press when there is a mistake.

I'd suggest driving your 335 harder if you prefer it over the X. I also own a 335i and have driven a model X. The handling and fun to drive factor is so much better in the 335. IMO, of course. The 335 also looks better, has better build quality, and better range (LOL).

335 is fun, but is slow compared to the Tesla X in most daily driving situations like get on the freeway, off the light, etc. X can do 0-60 in under 4 seconds. No shifting, just pushes you back in the seat.

Self-drive works fine for me. Just drove 40 miles. Only time I took control was at stop signs and lights since the current system does not recognize them.

I do like the BMWs and have owned 7 of them, but unless BMW does something really special I may have gotten my last one.

And it still remains to see if BMW and Mercedes are serious about EVs. BMW had the lead with the i3 in the compact EV space and management did nothing to build on it. Supposedly this is the reasome BMW fired their CEO. And their dealers have never strongly supported it and may never support an EV. Because most dealerships make most of their money from the service department and EVs do not need much service

 

[Baymowe335]

335 is fun, but is slow compared to the Tesla X in most daily driving situations like get on the freeway, off the light, etc. X can do 0-60 in under 4 seconds. No shifting, just pushes you back in the seat.

Self-drive works fine for me. Just drove 40 miles. Only time I took control was at stop signs and lights since the current system does not recognize them.

I do like the BMWs and have owned 7 of them, but unless BMW does something really special I may have gotten my last one.

And it still remains to see if BMW and Mercedes are serious about EVs. BMW had the lead with the i3 in the compact EV space and management did nothing to build on it. Supposedly this is the reasome BMW fired their CEO. And their dealers have never strongly supported it and may never support an EV. Because most dealerships make most of their money from the service department and EVs do not need much service

My 335i is tuned and I'd guess it's still faster to 100 than the model X. It's also far more stable at high speeds and corners far, far better. The X is quoted to be 4.4 to 60. My 335i is that or faster with the tune.

I think the obvious reason BMW hasn't gone heavy into EV is because the tech isn't there yet.

Teslas ARE cool for straight line acceleration to a certain point, but it uses a lot of electricity and is hard on the drivetrain.

The model X is also $85K. That's pushing M5 territory.

 

[AustinIllini]

335 is fun, but is slow compared to the Tesla X in most daily driving situations like get on the freeway, off the light, etc. X can do 0-60 in under 4 seconds. No shifting, just pushes you back in the seat. Your tires much be trashed with that pig of a car doing zero to 60 that quickly.

Self-drive works fine for me. Just drove 40 miles. Only time I took control was at stop signs and lights since the current system does not recognize them. That doesn't make it the best, that just means you're willing to risk your life to beta test for Tesla. We know Audi and Cadillac are better at self-driving, but they keep the functionality under wraps so as to not put you or people around you at risk.

I do like the BMWs and have owned 7 of them, but unless BMW does something really special I may have gotten my last one. A true electric 3 series would be superior to a model 3. You have an X which costs about 3 times as much. It better be better than a 328i or a 335i.

And it still remains to see if BMW and Mercedes are serious about EVs. BMW had the lead with the i3 in the compact EV space and management did nothing to build on it. Supposedly this is the reasome BMW fired their CEO. And their dealers have never strongly supported it and may never support an EV. Because most dealerships make most of their money from the service department and EVs do not need much service
Most dealerships make their money from used car sales.

Comments in bold. You overpay for electric tech, that's why the Tesla has a better range. Other than that, the model X brings little to the table for that immense price tag.

 

[jerryk]

My 335i is tuned and I'd guess it's still faster to 100 than the model X. It's also far more stable at high speeds and corners far, far better.

I think the obvious reason BMW hasn't gone heavy into EV is because the tech isn't there yet.

Teslas ARE cool for straight line acceleration to a certain point, but it uses a lot of electricity and is hard on the drivetrain.

The model X is also $85K. That's pushing M5 territory.

I would hope a 335i would handle much better than 6,200 pound 7-passenger SUV. But even a tuned 335 it might not be able to keep up in the 1/4 mile (11.8 secs) or a Model 3 which is probably a more comparable car.

The BMW M3 could not beat the Model 3 Performance, maybe your car could.

And the EV tech is there, but not generally available in BMWs because BMW chose to ignore it. The killer is they had the lead with the i3. Carbon-fiber construction, perm magnetic motors, etc. all in the i3.

But as long as the sell through dealers they and other EV makers are going to have issues. You see that today with Jag and the iPace, Chevy and the Bolt, Hyundia and the Kona EV, Kia and the EV soul and niro, ... Dealerships make most of their money on the service side. And If they don't make money theygo out of business, or become not much different than a used car lot.

 

[AustinIllini]

I would hope a 335i would handle much better than 6,200 pound 7-passenger SUV. But even a tuned 335 it might not be able to keep up in the 1/4 mile (11.8 secs) or a Model 3 which is probably a more comparable car.

The BMW M3 could not beat the Model 3 Performance, maybe your car could.

And the EV tech is there, but not generally available in BMWs because BMW chose to ignore it. The killer is they had the lead with the i3. Carbon-fiber construction, perm magnetic motors, etc. all in the i3.

But as long as the sell through dealers they and other EV makers are going to have issues. You see that today with Jag and the iPace, Chevy and the Bolt, Hyundia and the Kona EV, Kia and the EV soul and niro, ... Dealerships make most of their money on the service side. And If they don't make money theygo out of business, or become not much different than a used car lot.

They'll find ways to make their money. Unlike Tesla, which, despite making below average quality vehicles, still loses a mountain of money

 

[farewelwilliams]

You're far overvaluing the cost of insurance for a car that should drive itself. An affordable, self driving, electric car will negate the need for a subscription service.

A subscription service for cars is a loser for the poor. Look no further than the rising cost of all subscription services across the board.

With full self driving by Apple/Tesla, you're overvaluing the cost of the subscription service. There's no human component which means you'll see far lower costs compared to the cost of a Lyft monthly subscription.
[doublepost=1563920931][/doublepost]

Tesla has said they'll be profitable since 2012. The competition comes when it makes sense financially. As you see Tesla continuing to lose money, the costs are not there yet for battery tech, charging stations, and overall feasibility of the tech in the real world.

Do you think BMW and Mercedes are puzzled with EV tech or that they are just waiting for the time it makes sense?

EV tech is extremely difficult. Because building EV is difficult, there are costs associated with it. Ask Audi if they delivered on every E-Tron promise or Jaguar on their iPace when they were announced. They didn't. When Tesla unveiled the Model 3, they delivered on all of the said promises and actually exceeded them. The only exception was the carbon fiber color, which is understandable.

BMW sounds extremely puzzled. They said on the record that people aren't demanding EVs. I can easily find stats that EVs are on the rise.

Other car manufacturers aren't like, "Wow, Tesla is making a killing on that EV model! Let's go do that." They will watch Tesla self destruct, copy the technology, and later profit.

Your point of manufacturers waiting for Tesla to self destruct doesn't make sense. Car manufacturers can copy the tech already. Their patents are free of use by any other company. They literally have a page on their website that lists every single patent and explicitly says they "will not initiate patent lawsuits against anyone who, in good faith, wants to use its technology."

Tesla has said that some manufacturers are already using their patents.

 

[farewelwilliams]

This is the thing. It's even more obvious with the automation software, too. Audi and Cadillac are leading on the self-driving car front, but Tesla is the only company stupid enough to kill its own drivers with an autopilot system that isn't an autopilot.

What? Their super cruise doesn't even execute lane changes.

And sounds like you're brainwashed by the media. Only Tesla crashes were reported. Where are all the Tesla saves? I've had my Tesla swerve because a truck was about to merge onto my lane. Did that get reported? Nope. But had I crashed, it'll be all over the news.

 

[themovieposterguy]

Teslas aren't attractive vehicles.

LOL you don't have taste it seems