Apple Interested in Developing ARM-Based Mac Processors and iPhone Modems in House

[Pentad]

Careful what you wish for... The Mac has a small group of developers now and you will see that dwindle with a move to ARM. One of the smartest things Apple did was move to Intel because it allowed popular software to be ported to the Mac either directly or through something like WINE. With a move to ARM you will see that software and those developers leave.

ARM has a lot of benefits but running high performance software is not one of them. Do not underestimate Intel's processors or the engineering behind them. ARM was designed from the ground up to be power efficient while Intel's were designed for performance.

If Apple moves to ARM, I will jump ship as I'm sure many other developers will too.

 

[Doc C]

With regards to the comments that it's the older crowd that is dependent on the mouse/keyboard model, my observations suggest otherwise. My parents and their friends seem to gravitate to the iPhones and iPads for everything. My father still does some consulting work, and he only uses the laptop because the company he works with requires specific programs, which only run on Windows. Otherwise, it would be iPad full-time. Watching them, it becomes clear that the touch-screen interface is most comfortable - even using the laptop, they will often reach out to tap a dialog box.

With regards to the computing power issue, I don't think that Apple is all that concerned. Their "Pro" devices (MacPro, upcoming iMac Pro -- no the MacBookPro is not really a Pro device) are significantly underpowered. Apple hasn't really made a large effort to address this market, because they wouldn't be able to command the same margins, and if they lower the price to be competitive, then they would cannibalize their middle-range products. In essence, the pro market isn't profitable enough to matter. For better or worse, they long-ago transitioned to a commodity company. This started while Steve Jobs was running things, and has only continued unabated.

The bottom line is that Apple is a public corporation, beholden to its shareholders. They make most of their money from the i-devices because they command large margins. In order to justify their laptops and desktops ongoing existence, they will always try to improve profits there as well. This means either increasing price (on products that are already marginally overpriced) or decreasing cost of production. Switching to ARM would decrease cost of production, while still allowing them to appeal to the audience that generates most of the revenue (and profit). If, along the way, they can satisfy the true pro users, then I'm sure they will try, but I really don't think they care that much any more.

 

[Rocketman]

Having an optional Intel x86 chip and optional PowerPC chip as a customisation would solve the entry price issue and the power user issue at the same time.

 

[dippnerd]

The only problem is a third party library you are using not compiled for ARM. I'm sure some developers would have that problem.
But if an app is running on iOS the ARM porting on the Mac should be easy.

It would take some years to have an ARM Mac, but we'll get there I'm pretty sure about that. Maybe it won't be possible to install Windows on it, but I don't think it's a big problem for Apple. They'll lose some customers, but not the majority.
As long as the majority of apps is available on the ARM customers will be happy

Good point about the third party libraries, though I think Apple is kind of strict about them anyway aren't they? Even so, I would imagine they have a pretty good idea of what would break and just not display it on the ARM app store until the app gets updated.

It definitely feels like an inevitability. Either the Mac will switch to ARM, or I could see them just slowly letting the Mac die (sadly) as they pave way for more iOS professional functionality. I wouldn't be surprised to see something akin to the OS 9 to 10 transition, where they have a sandboxed macOS VM users can use for compatibility inside of iOS, but if that would even happen it feels quite a ways off still.

Regarding Windows compatibility, that's why I think they would start off small, and pitch this device towards a different market. It wouldn't have any Bootcamp options, because that's not the point of the device. At that point it's almost a glorified iPad that happens to run macOS, but so locked down it wouldn't benefit pro users anyway. It seems like an easy route to test the waters and ideally win some Windows users over at the same time.

 

[laptech]

They are no longer relevant as it's now in-house. It's not even an issue.

I very much doubt that Apple have moved THAT quickly. The report only came out in April, plus the contract with the company hasn't finished yet.

 

[Doc C]

...Her work computer is a dumb Dell that force-connects to the hospital's VDI and she uses the patient portal - that's the extent of her Windows use.

I access the hospitals and my office using either the Mac or iOS version of Windows Remote Desktop, run through a VPN. Wouldn't that work for her? It may take some work with the IT group to make it work, but it eliminates my need for a Windows machine, and often I don't even need the MBP as the iPad is fine.
[doublepost=1506697892][/doublepost]

I dont think you can call a platform supporting the latest compilers and languages legacy. Us over 40s know what legacy is...bet you've never heard of Cross System Product, dBaseIII, even written a stitch of Cobol or Fortran.

OMG....flashback to my teens. I used to code in all of those. And Assembler.
Heck, I remember building my own Apple ][+ clone, and fighting with the Commodore PETs at school, with it's "advanced" token ring network, that always seemed to crap out just as I was trying to finish an assignment...

And then there were those damn punch cards.....

I'm gonna go get some Geritol and yell at the kids from my front porch now....

 

[wizzardude]

Apple switched from 68k to PowerPC
And PowerPC to x86
And x86 to x86-64

What makes anyone *seriously* think they can't make the shift from x86 to ARM?

2.5 years ago, I predicted Apple would make the shift (https://antipaucity.com/2015/02/12/my-tech-predictions-for-2015/#.Wc5i19OGPgo)

I may have been off a little about the timing - but it is coming

 

[HBX]

They should just acquire AMD and ditch Intel, but FFS keep that ARM ******** on mobile devices. I don't want to see MacOS running on ARM, if that happens I'll be buying up those 2013-2015 Mac Pros on ebay real fast, this 2012 Mac Mini will be in a death grip if that happens.

 

[guzhogi]

a chip that integrates touch, fingerprint and display driver functions

[Daydream]
This makes me think of touchscreen TVs that my school district uses. Pretty cool. Connect it to your laptop via USB & Airplay, and you can use the TV as a big touchscreen. Useful in Kindergarten - 5th grade when you want to show the whole class something, and interact with what's onscreen. I know this is way too much of a niche product for Apple to make, but would be cool if Apple could do it totally wirelessly through a new version of Airplay or something.

As for ARM-based Macs, it could happen. Apple does have precedent changing architectures, and having universal binaries. I'd really like to see MacOS (and iOS) upgrade as much of its codebase to Swift as possible, and use all of the newer frameworks (like I heard the text shortcuts just got updated to CloudKit). Also would like to see the power of MacOS with better touch functionality. Keep keyboard & mouse support, but add touch as well for those who prefer using their fingers or a stylus.
[/Daydream]

 

[Evil Spoonman]

sooner they ditch intel the better

Why? What is Intel doing wrong that Apple can do right?

This seems to be the undead topic, but in reality it's a very complex set of tradeoffs. We just don't know if Apple even could make a laptop chip that is competitive.

• A-series chips are made on a low power process (LP), would their designs scale up to standard power processes?
• We do not have good benchmarks to compare across architectures. Geekbench 4 is... a bit of a hamfisted approach at best. Is A11 faster than i5? I don't know, you don't know. Maybe in some specific cases, probably not in a bunch of others.
• ARM is not a magic ISA, it is barely even RISC anymore. Similarly, x86_64 is not a magic ISA, and it is barely even CISC anymore. CPUs are so complex these days that trying to understand them with simple metaphors is impossible.
• Apple almost certainly had a copy of OS X that runs on ARM available years ago, and has a contingency plan to release it. They would be crazy not to, but it doesn't mean they're going to either.
• Feature size is a misleading number. Intel's 14nm is smaller than TSMC's 16nm or Samsung's 14nm, and close to TSMC's 10nm. Intel's 10nm will be smaller than TSMC's 10nm. In fact, really only Intel is publishing even remotely accurate feature size numbers, everybody else is using it as a marketing number. Apple does not have direct access to Intel's process.
• There is a considerable power design difference between an iPhone A11 (3-5W?) and an Intel i5-7267U (28W). You can't just sweep that under the rug. There are many scenarios where a 5W chip can't do things a 28W chip can. Higher power and larger chips have different constraints, does Apple know how to design those? We don't know, it can most likely learn, but will it net any advantage over Intel if it does? Again, we don't know.
• There are a ton of compatibility problems/questions about an ARM core running OS X, such as losing the ability to easily cross-boot into Windows and Linux, at least for a time.

So really we have no idea, Nikkei has no idea, and it might be a good idea, or it might be an impossible terrible idea. I wish people would stop being so certain about things that they literally cannot possible know.

 

[bsimpsen]

This topic seems to plumb a deeper ignorance in the audience than most others. Anyone who's been following Apple for awhile should know this:

1) Nobody has switched underlying CPU architectures more often, or more successfully, than Apple.
2) Microsoft is prepping full Win10 on ARM.
3) Xcode, (via Bitcode) has been ready for this for some time, allowing last minute retargeting in the App Store before download.
4) A series processors are now running neck-and-neck with Intel in the low power laptop space.
5) Apple's A family performance trajectory is rising faster than Intel's.
6) Apple can apply the money saved by not paying Intel's x86 margins to pay for larger silicon, if necessary to achieve or exceed performance parity.

I think this was inevitable.

 

[AppleMad98004]

Would people stop saying ARM is British. It is Japanese, owned by Softbank with a huge operation in Japan.

Also if they cut out Intel we are defiantly moving to iOS DESKTOP.... They will combine it with iOS MOBILE and make it the Mac OS.

 

[citi]

Macs can't move to ARM unless they invent x86 to ARM instruction set translation without performance penalty - Mac doesn't make sense without ability to run x86 virtual machines (Linux, Windows).

Average consumer does not care about virtual machines.

 

[Hattig]

I can see Apple retaining an x86 lines for professional users for a couple of years, whilst software migrates.

Sure, there will be an x86->ARM translation layer available for everyone else, but it won't cut the mustard for the professionals.

Windows is going to go big on ARM as a full replacement for x86 over the next couple of years. Apple won't want to be seen as the "me too" player here. I was thinking that it would be around 2020 for the first ARM MacOSX devices, but maybe things are moving faster within Apple.

The Apple TV 4K is an interesting creature. Sure, it's A10X, not A11, but it's a powerful little box, far more than it needs to be (although maybe the A10X is the cheapest option with 4K support in hardware). Makes you wonder what other uses they are putting it to within Apple R&D.

Btw, it's not good news for AMD either - undoubtedly Apple will also transition the discrete GPU from AMD onto their own design in a similar timescale.

Apple's current core design is more than capable already - allow a bit more TDP, results in a bit higher turbo clocks, and higher sustained clocks, and you have something that can replace Intel in the notebooks. Especially as Apple can throw a couple more cores in, and use the low-power cores most of the time still.

The only shame is that this likely won't result in cheaper Macs. It's just a way for Apple to take control of more of the supply chain.

 

[dippnerd]

Also if they cut out Intel we are defiantly moving to iOS DESKTOP.... They will combine it with iOS MOBILE and make it the Mac OS.

This is one direction people seem to miss. I wouldn't be surprised to see them move to iOS as the platform, with a sandboxed VM for macOS compatibility, similar to the OS 9 to OS 10 transition. It still feels a ways off for this to be practical (we'd need mouse support and such) but seems like an easy move if they can pull off the x86 emulation.

Another option would be to just move macOS to the cloud (less likely given privacy concerns) and have users VNC/RDP to the desktop. I do this to manage my Mac Mini from my iPad, if I just had mouse support it would be pretty decent even.

 

[recoil80]

Good point about the third party libraries, though I think Apple is kind of strict about them anyway aren't they? Even so, I would imagine they have a pretty good idea of what would break and just not display it on the ARM app store until the app gets updated.

It definitely feels like an inevitability. Either the Mac will switch to ARM, or I could see them just slowly letting the Mac die (sadly) as they pave way for more iOS professional functionality. I wouldn't be surprised to see something akin to the OS 9 to 10 transition, where they have a sandboxed macOS VM users can use for compatibility inside of iOS, but if that would even happen it feels quite a ways off still.

Regarding Windows compatibility, that's why I think they would start off small, and pitch this device towards a different market. It wouldn't have any Bootcamp options, because that's not the point of the device. At that point it's almost a glorified iPad that happens to run macOS, but so locked down it wouldn't benefit pro users anyway. It seems like an easy route to test the waters and ideally win some Windows users over at the same time.

Macbook seems like a good candidate for the switch. I don't think many people run Windows, and is not a "pro" machine.
As long as productivity suites like office run on it (and office runs on the iPad so the switch to ARM is easy) the average 12'' Macbook user is fine

I'm not craving for an ARM based Mac, but I'd buy it if it was available. Don't care about Windows and I'm an iOS developer, so as long as Xcode is running on the machine I'm fine

 

[albebaubles]

On what metric are these ARM chips faster? I can't imagine doing batch edits on a phone of RAW photos and stuff. I mean, even look at the die sizes, ARM transistors aren't magic.

Not magic, but apple controlling the silicon and software means they can custom design those arms for performance with their software. its an apples and oranges comparison.

 

[Codeseven]

Might have already been explained but, ‘ARM Holding's technology, a British company that designs ARM architecture and licenses it out to other companies’, I’m confused about Apple making they’re own ARM chips. Is Apple actually manufacturing or designing ARM chips or is ARM Holding just another Intel to Apple?

 

[dippnerd]

Not magic, but apple controlling the silicon and software means they can custom design those arms for performance with their software. its an apples and oranges comparison.

We also have to remember, Apple dropped 32-bit support this year both in software and presumably on the A11, given the other gains it got. Intel doesn't get the same perks to drop that 32-bit baggage any time soon, and with it comes plenty of issues like increased heat and energy for basically no benefit.

 

[Superhai]

I no doubt think that Apple keeps the option of running the main CPU in a Mac on its own A (or whatever) chip. But I don't think if it will happen it will be in the near future, and the transition will be slow.

If that happen however, it doesn't turn a Mac into an iOS device. It will still be in whatever shape Mac will be in that time period. And if it means mouse/pad and keyboard both the Intel and ARM version will be in that shape.

Personally I think that Apple will add more coprocessors, and maybe its own GPU, before they will axe the x86 CPU.

 

[2ilent8cho]

Now imagine Continuity working between iOS and MacOS when both run ARM. You have grindr open on your iPhone, your Mac knows this and the icon appears in the dock, you press a button and it pulls the app to your Mac.

 

[swm]

not surprising at all. Microsoft demoed Windows running on ARM snapdragon 835. If apple wants to create a Mac Laptop with bootcamp support for Windows ARM, they could.

but then you'd have a "perfectly running" windows on arm, w/o a single app. i thought the reason of using bootcamp is to be able to run windows applications... but those are compiled for x86, not arm. having an ARM ready OS will not enable to use older apps, unless they are re-built for the new CPU.

 

[Superhai]

Is Apple actually manufacturing or designing ARM chips or is ARM Holding just another Intel to Apple?

ARM do not create their own chips, they only license their technology. In practice it will likely be like this: Apple design the wafers (the hardware) based upon ARM's technology and IP. The actual production will probably be outsourced to some other chip producing company.

 

[antonis]

Not gonna happen. Apple will not commit suicide by turning Macs to ARM. Computers still need s/w to operate.

 

[dippnerd]

Personally I think that Apple will add more coprocessors, and maybe its own GPU, before they will axe the x86 CPU.

We're already seeing the coprocessor with the T1 for the Touch Bar. I won't be surprised if the Touch Bar concept over time just expands into the keyboard as an iPad of sorts. They're already trying to make the keyboard keys so slim you barely notice them, seems like a transition away from physical keys.