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Any ideas who might be responsible for this move? Tim Cook had to sign off, but I'd like to know who the people were at Apple who planned it. All Apple fans should be deeply worried about things like this, regardless of your politics. Google is a prime example of how politically correct belief systems like multiculturalism and equality can take over a company and divert it from its primary mission: shareholder wealth growth through customer satisfaction.

The SPLC is a hate group, pure and simple, I know people they've put on their "hate" list, they are lying through their teeth to scare people to raise money that they don't need, that will only cause more hate not understanding or peace: http://www.vdare.com/articles/the-f...ights-stalwart-it-was-always-a-dangerous-joke
 
You're the conspiracy guy if you actually think RT is propaganda and US media isn't.

Just admit it, you're buying into Russian propaganda by believing RT is a credible news source. There are piles of information clearly showing it's financially supported and directed by the Kremlin. Enjoy what the Russians are feeding you.
 
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Any ideas who might be responsible for this move? Tim Cook had to sign off, but I'd like to know who the people were at Apple who planned it. All Apple fans should be deeply worried about things like this, regardless of your politics. Google is a prime example of how politically correct belief systems like multiculturalism and equality can take over a company and divert it from its primary mission: shareholder wealth growth through customer satisfaction.

The SPLC is a hate group, pure and simple, I know people they've put on their "hate" list, they are lying through their teeth to scare people to raise money that they don't need, that will only cause more hate not understanding or peace: http://www.vdare.com/articles/the-f...ights-stalwart-it-was-always-a-dangerous-joke


You showed your hand by calling multiculturalism a "politically correct belief system." What an alt-righty, put a smile on white nationalism, way of putting things.
 
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Just admit it, you're buying into Russian propaganda by believing RT is a credible news source. There are piles of information clearly showing it's financially supported and directed by the Kremlin. Enjoy what the Russians are feeding you.

I know you do not watch RT.

How do I know you do not watch RT? You are telling us that Russia funds RT. Everyone who watches RT knows this. RT tells us that all week long. I would like to personally thank Vladimir Putin for funding RT so I can find out what is really going on in my own country (USA) and around the world since the TV news here is completely fake and has been since the late 1980's.

You are walking up to a professional landscape worker wiping the sweat off his forehead from under his headband on a sunny, 90 degree day telling him "Landscaping is a hot sweaty job!" He knows that already, just as everyone who watches RT knows the funding comes from Russia.
 
You showed your hand by calling multiculturalism a "politically correct belief system." What an alt-righty, put smile on white nationalism, way of putting things.

So you're going to try calling 'not it' first in the racist game, thinking you'll get the insta-win? That's an awfully single-minded, bigoted way to argue. No?

Multiculturalism is a modern ******** construct, that conflates the obvious to sound like something more profound. Its just as foolish to search for its invisible hand, as it is to be offended by its disparaging.

To answer nick42983's post: There's no point in witch hunting who was behind Tim Cook's awful reactionary letter, ultimately it's his name on it and his responsibility as boss.
 
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Interesting that NO one mentioned that majority of confederate monuments were placed well after the civil war and as a reaction by jim crow folks against the civil rights movement as a form of intimidation.


Probably because its so false that no one has felt the need to respond. However, you've brought it up at least twice, and now Dagless is parroting you, so I guess it needs to be responded to.

https://www.axios.com/the-year-that-confederate-statues-were-erected-2474424759.html

If you disagree, perhaps you could show your proof to the publishers of that site.

I've read through eleven pages of posts and couldn't possibly quote and respond to every one that stood out, so I'll have to post cold here. Excuse me for what may seem like a rambling group of thoughts. It probably is, but I'm just trying to explain and defuse a lot of what is going on here with history. Regarding these monuments and the opportunistic trouble surrounding them, I want to offer folks some information that I hope they reflect on and perhaps get a better perspective of current events and the dangers we now face. For those of you who are so used to hanging labels on people as a way to avoid debating things, feel free to call me a Nazi white supremacist Trump supporter and go on with your life, blissfully ignorant to the damage you do to society as a whole, all while claiming you "did something" by refusing to accept my viewpoint. Above all, have fun.

For those few here who have repeatedly mentioned that these Confederate monuments were erected to intimidate black families, you would not be accurate. Most of them were not paid for by state or local governments to support Jim Crow laws, but in large part paid for by private organizations including the United Daughters of the Confederacy, the United Confederate Veterans, and Sons of Confederate Veterans. They have prominent display in public places because they are memorials to war dead, and not memorials to slavery. Any statement to the contrary is the viewer projecting their own views on those memorials, or worse, listening to groups seeking to use the issue of slavery to further their own ends.

One of our esteemed posters mentioned early on that calling the war between the states a "battle for states rights" was simply semantics and that it was purely to ensure slavery, and then he posted links to the 1861 Confederate Constitution as proof. If you want to speak of semantics, then you should be right at home with that argument. Pay no attention to the tariff debates prior to the secession, go look for proof in a document generated post-secession. If a few lines like that would be some kind of obvious proof that the south was seceding to protect slavery, then you should have a field day with Lincoln's obvious distaste for the slaves as a species, all spoken prior to secession. Lincoln repeatedly said blacks were incapable of equaling whites, as they were obviously a different species. This was both his view and a reflection of the northern mentality of the times. He pushed not for emancipation, but for northern-style abolition, where the slaves would be forcibly seized and deported outside of the Union. Southern-style abolition, on the other hand, largely dealt with manumission, where the slave was freed arbitrarily, or purchased and then freed by charity, or freed after a labor schedule was fulfilled. I should point out that there were contrarian movements on both sides of the line, with northerners favoring southern-style freedom and vice-versa. To deny this would be to play into yet another version of the "North vs South" paradigm, where each side projects evil on the other side. I have no intention of subscribing to the buzz-word bingo that is part of the current public discourse.

I'll further mention Lincoln's well documented support for keeping slavery in the slave states, and he supported a Constitutional amendment that would enshrine slavery in US law. If the so-called slave states wanted support for slavery in the Union government, they need look no further than old "Honest Abe". So why would they leave that? Most likely because of the steel import tariffs that Lincoln promised Pennsylvania steel interests that he would pursue with armed force if necessary. Those tariffs would prevent cheaper UK steel from entering southern ports, thereby hitting their already fragile economy even harder, while protecting those Pennsylvania factories.
It should be noted that initially, only four states seceded, and that secession was largely related to military threats to collect the tariff. When the Union military was mobilized against those four states, the rest of the states involved in the debate decided to vote to rebel.

During the war, Lincoln authorized his rabid generals - most notably William Sherman - to pursue the war as they saw fit, without regard to the people. Sherman's troops looted and raped their way across Georgia in a march that today would be prosecuted as a war crime. Its especially criminal when the slaves they were allegedly freeing also died, as they were left without shelter or provision to die in the approaching winter. While Lincoln was publicly lamenting that "brother would kill brother" in the war, his generals had troops marching under orders to treat the southerners as lower than the lowest animal, and Johnny Reb's noncombatant family members were considered fair game.

Estimates of southern war dead range from 600,000 to over 900,000, and was quite possibly much higher. A large portion of the dead were civilians including women and children, as well as slaves.

I'd like to point out that as was mentioned earlier, many of those slaves were sold into the slave markets by tribes that conquered other tribes in Africa and had deals with the Portuguese, Spanish, Dutch, and British slavers. Some of those slaves were sold into the south (and the north too, don't forget that slavery began in the north as the result of a northern court decision and then spread to the south) in domestic slave markets owned and run by blacks, and some of them were bought by black plantation owners. For that matter, there were also freed slaves who fought for the Confederacy, as well as born-free blacks who also fought for the Confederacy, voluntarily. That is once of those "inconvenient truths" that gets buried by the NAACP at every turn.

Much is made of the KKK and Nathan Bedford Forrest being a former Confederate general. Not much is said about the societal unrest that brought about the formation of the KKK. The US federal authority that occupied the states in rebellion banned white southern males from holding public office or voting. They brought in northerners to hold those offices - the famous "carpetbaggers". They also built up a bureaucracy at least partially staffed with blacks, as a further salt in the wound. While there were men in the KKK as well as out of it who would have looked down on blacks no matter what station they occupied in life - just as there are now - that view coalesced around Forrest's movement to launch a guerrilla war against what they perceived as further northern force being visited against their lives, especially damaging since these were lives lived under occupation, that lasting for two decades under what was known as "Reconstruction". This Union policy tried to rebuild southern society around northern ideals, and was a lasting contributor towards future racism.

(cue the slavering buzzword hordes: "Did he just blame the north for the creation of the KKK? Does he not know they were all southerners? It doesn't matter what the north did, the south was evil!!" No, I didn't blame the north. I blamed the Reconstruction policies. The southerners did not have to raise arms against this in aggression, especially on innocent families. People reach a breaking point, and they do evil things. After four years of war and devastation that were the result of a peaceful seccession, perhaps they were done with seeking peaceful resolution. I don't defend it, I simply try to understand it and not have a knee-jerk response.)

I want people to think about this, and not just throw up some knee-jerk response. When people are forced to do something they don't want to do, resentment builds. People have pride, and when that pride is injured, they will respond irrationally in some cases. Right now we have a movement built largely around hysteria, stating that open display of the Confederate memorials is tacit approval of racism. "How is that so?" one wonders, and the answer one gets is "because the south favored slavery, and the north fought to free the slaves". Yet it isn't true. There are people who swear the south was out to have slavery for generations to come - including at least one person here - but that is also not true. Jefferson Davis was at the forefront of a group who wanted to end slavery within 30 years, and they wanted to have a plan to do it, and not just dump tens of thousands of slaves on the labor market at once. Doing so would displace low-skilled white labor as former slaves would take any wage to survive. Davis and his fellow countrymen seemed to realize the danger that would pose, i.e. resentment amongst whites.

I feel this is very similar to the debate that is had in political circles regarding public welfare. It simply should not have ever existed. I and many others want it to disappear. But what of the needy people that depend on it, and aren't there to game the system? What happens to them if the rug is pulled out from under them in one move? How is that any different from slavery ending in a moment, and then dumping tens of thousands of uneducated people on the labor market, with no capital resources and no marketable skills? Obviously there has to be an exit strategy. So would fighting a war to "free" welfare recipients be the answer? Or should there be some plan to eliminate welfare over a generation that would minimize the damage to the people and the economy?

(Cue the hordes: "He just equated welfare recipients with slaves! Racist!!!" No, I just pointed to similarities in circumstance between slavery and welfare as institutions, not as similarities in the human quality of slaves and welfare recipients. Nothing more. Move along.)

How is it that this isn't taught in schools? Why is it so important for the north to portrayed as saints and the south as devils? Does it have anything to do with the military adventurism that came from that victorious north over succeeding generations? The subjugation of Indian tribes? Teddy Roosevelt's not-so-hidden threat against the entire world in the form of the Great White Fleet? The involvement in the destruction of lawful governments and the establishment of puppet states in over fifty nations worldwide? Yet the south is the villain, right? Southern armies were just a few miles away from DC at one point in the war, and if this was truly a war to control the government (the definition of a "civil war"), then they could have ended it there. They didn't. This was a war for self-determination, which regardless of some of the components of that, was an honorable thing.

Right now, there are public figures (and some not-so-public) who are using this debate over memorials as a hot wire to achieve some other aims. The uneducated responses I see to daily activity in our country points to this. How in the world did people come to associate Donald Trump with Fascism? First, it indicates that the majority of people have no idea what the term means, with the first letter either capitalized or not. Second, asking them to explain it brings up a litany of responses related to his tax returns, his morals, his business acumen, or some nebulous perceived Russian influence - in short, nothing at all related to fascism. I believe that this is just a learned acclimatization to Trump's pillory in the mainstream press. If you believe the (well documented) story about Operation Mockingbird, then this demonization gets a whole lot scarier. (For the record, if you want a textbook example of fascism, that bundling together of private industry and public office, look at the aforementioned alliance between Lincoln and the Pennsylvania steel companies. Irony of ironies...)

(For full disclosure, I don't like Trump, I don't dislike Trump. I voted for him on one single plank of his platform, which was ending foreign military adventurism and establishing peaceful trade relations with all nations, sort of identical to that which many of the founding fathers espoused. I find it terrible that he has been so far prevented from exercising that part of his platform, largely by the current Russia scare that is being beaten to death. Anything that he does that goes against the four terms of the militarist BushObama agenda can be credited to his obvious "ties to Russia/Putin", and his move is deflated. Any member of the legislature that independently agrees to back him, or at least deviate from the current adventurist hysteria, is called "Putin's favorite". Trump talks peace with other nations, he's their puppet. He bombs Syria, he's acting like a "true American". How disgusting, yet so obviously telling about the mentality in this country. )

Further, how is it that the people who are waving swastika flags are Nazis? Because they say they are? Because others say they are? They have nothing to do with the original Nazi organization, not even tangentially. They're more like a cult of personality. Their planks distill out all the most rabid stuff from the politics and infrastruction of the Nazis and use them like a weapon against people. They hate Jews, they hate blacks, they adore Hitler, they... what else? I doubt even they could tell you. The fact that the organized ones cling together wearing clothes that were outdated by 1950 or so should tell you something. They're just another buzzword slavering horde, and its more identity politics. There aren't that many of them, and their number wouldn't grow if they weren't such a hot issue right now. Uneducated people looking to be part of something that will give them a voice will now be interested in joining. No different than the violent socialist movements in liberal arts colleges, or the gangs that spring up in low income areas.

I'd like to close - for those of you who were able to read to the end - by saying that in a free country, every idea has to be up for debate. You cannot say "its settled" and then refuse to talk about it, or demonize anyone who wants to raise the issue again, and say you're in favor of free speech. I find it very disheartening to see how far people have drifted away from the Socratic method, where ideas were constantly discussed and refined, and towards a polarized ideology where good and evil can somehow be projected on to every discussion, with prizes for the winners as established by virtue consensus. Its gotten to the point where you can't talk about the Autobahn anymore without first offering a disclaimer stating you don't hold Nazi ideology. You can't talk about education without talking about giving people a "safe space". And you definitely can't talk about how people died to support individual determination without first accusing them of racism.
 
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Probably because its so false that no one has felt the need to respond. However, you've brought it up at least twice, and now Dagless is parroting you, so I guess it needs to be responded to.

https://www.axios.com/the-year-that-confederate-statues-were-erected-2474424759.html

If you disagree, perhaps you could show your proof to the publishers of that site.

I've read through eleven pages of posts and couldn't possibly quote and respond to every one that stood out, so I'll have to post cold here. Excuse me for what may seem like a rambling group of thoughts. It probably is, but I'm just trying to explain and defuse a lot of what is going on here with history. Regarding these monuments and the opportunistic trouble surrounding them, I want to offer folks some information that I hope they reflect on and perhaps get a better perspective of current events and the dangers we now face. For those of you who are so used to hanging labels on people as a way to avoid debating things, feel free to call me a Nazi white supremacist Trump supporter and go on with your life, blissfully ignorant to the damage you do to society as a whole, all while claiming you "did something" by refusing to accept my viewpoint. Above all, have fun.

For those few here who have repeatedly mentioned that these Confederate monuments were erected to intimidate black families, you would not be accurate. Most of them were not paid for by state or local governments to support Jim Crow laws, but in large part paid for by private organizations including the United Daughters of the Confederacy, the United Confederate Veterans, and Sons of Confederate Veterans. They have prominent display in public places because they are memorials to war dead, and not memorials to slavery. Any statement to the contrary is the viewer projecting their own views on those memorials, or worse, listening to groups seeking to use the issue of slavery to further their own ends.

One of our esteemed posters mentioned early on that calling the war between the states a "battle for states rights" was simply semantics and that it was purely to ensure slavery, and then he posted links to the 1861 Confederate Constitution as proof. If you want to speak of semantics, then you should be right at home with that argument. Pay no attention to the tariff debates prior to the secession, go look for proof in a document generated post-secession. If a few lines like that would be some kind of obvious proof that the south was seceding to protect slavery, then you should have a field day with Lincoln's obvious distaste for the slaves as a species, all spoken prior to secession. Lincoln repeatedly said blacks were incapable of equaling whites, as they were obviously a different species. This was both his view and a reflection of the northern mentality of the times. He pushed not for emancipation, but for northern-style abolition, where the slaves would be forcibly seized and deported outside of the Union. Southern-style abolition, on the other hand, largely dealt with manumission, where the slave was freed arbitrarily, or purchased and then freed by charity, or freed after a labor schedule was fulfilled. I should point out that there were contrarian movements on both sides of the line, with northerners favoring southern-style freedom and vice-versa. To deny this would be to play into yet another version of the "North vs South" paradigm, where each side projects evil on the other side. I have no intention of subscribing to the buzz-word bingo that is part of the current public discourse.

I'll further mention Lincoln's well documented support for keeping slavery in the slave states, and he supported a Constitutional amendment that would enshrine slavery in US law. If the so-called slave states wanted support for slavery in the Union government, they need look no further than old "Honest Abe". So why would they leave that? Most likely because of the steel import tariffs that Lincoln promised Pennsylvania steel interests that he would pursue with armed force if necessary. Those tariffs would prevent cheaper UK steel from entering southern ports, thereby hitting their already fragile economy even harder, while protecting those Pennsylvania factories.
It should be noted that initially, only four states seceded, and that secession was largely related to military threats to collect the tariff. When the Union military was mobilized against those four states, the rest of the states involved in the debate decided to vote to rebel.

During the war, Lincoln authorized his rabid generals - most notably William Sherman - to pursue the war as they saw fit, without regard to the people. Sherman's troops looted and raped their way across Georgia in a march that today would be prosecuted as a war crime. Its especially criminal when the slaves they were allegedly freeing also died, as they were left without shelter or provision to die in the approaching winter. While Lincoln was publicly lamenting that "brother would kill brother" in the war, his generals had troops marching under orders to treat the southerners as lower than the lowest animal, and Johnny Reb's noncombatant family members were considered fair game.

Estimates of southern war dead range from 600,000 to over 900,000, and was quite possibly much higher. A large portion of the dead were civilians including women and children, as well as slaves.

I'd like to point out that as was mentioned earlier, many of those slaves were sold into the slave markets by tribes that conquered other tribes in Africa and had deals with the Portuguese, Spanish, Dutch, and British slavers. Some of those slaves were sold into the south (and the north too, don't forget that slavery began in the north as the result of a northern court decision and then spread to the south) in domestic slave markets owned and run by blacks, and some of them were bought by black plantation owners. For that matter, there were also freed slaves who fought for the Confederacy, as well as born-free blacks who also fought for the Confederacy, voluntarily. That is once of those "inconvenient truths" that gets buried by the NAACP at every turn.

Much is made of the KKK and Nathan Bedford Forrest being a former Confederate general. Not much is said about the societal unrest that brought about the formation of the KKK. The US federal authority that occupied the states in rebellion banned white southern males from holding public office or voting. They brought in northerners to hold those offices - the famous "carpetbaggers". They also built up a bureaucracy at least partially staffed with blacks, as a further salt in the wound. While there were men in the KKK as well as out of it who would have looked down on blacks no matter what station they occupied in life - just as there are now - that view coalesced around Forrest's movement to launch a guerrilla war against what they perceived as further northern force being visited against their lives, especially damaging since these were lives lived under occupation, that lasting for two decades under what was known as "Reconstruction". This Union policy tried to rebuild southern society around northern ideals, and was a lasting contributor towards future racism.

(cue the slavering buzzword hordes: "Did he just blame the north for the creation of the KKK? Does he not know they were all southerners? It doesn't matter what the north did, the south was evil!!" No, I didn't blame the north. I blamed the Reconstruction policies. The southerners did not have to raise arms against this in aggression, especially on innocent families. People reach a breaking point, and they do evil things. After four years of war and devastation that were the result of a peaceful seccession, perhaps they were done with seeking peaceful resolution. I don't defend it, I simply try to understand it and not have a knee-jerk response.)

I want people to think about this, and not just throw up some knee-jerk response. When people are forced to do something they don't want to do, resentment builds. People have pride, and when that pride is injured, they will respond irrationally in some cases. Right now we have a movement built largely around hysteria, stating that open display of the Confederate memorials is tacit approval of racism. "How is that so?" one wonders, and the answer one gets is "because the south favored slavery, and the north fought to free the slaves". Yet it isn't true. There are people who swear the south was out to have slavery for generations to come - including at least one person here - but that is also not true. Jefferson Davis was at the forefront of a group who wanted to end slavery within 30 years, and they wanted to have a plan to do it, and not just dump tens of thousands of slaves on the labor market at once. Doing so would displace low-skilled white labor as former slaves would take any wage to survive. Davis and his fellow countrymen seemed to realize the danger that would pose, i.e. resentment amongst whites.

I feel this is very similar to the debate that is had in political circles regarding public welfare. It simply should not have ever existed. I and many others want it to disappear. But what of the needy people that depend on it, and aren't there to game the system? What happens to them if the rug is pulled out from under them in one move? How is that any different from slavery ending in a moment, and then dumping tens of thousands of uneducated people on the labor market, with no capital resources and no marketable skills? Obviously there has to be an exit strategy. So would fighting a war to "free" welfare recipients be the answer? Or should there be some plan to eliminate welfare over a generation that would minimize the damage to the people and the economy?

(Cue the hordes: "He just equated welfare recipients with slaves! Racist!!!" No, I just pointed to similarities in circumstance between slavery and welfare as institutions, not as similarities in the human quality of slaves and welfare recipients. Nothing more. Move along.)

How is it that this isn't taught in schools? Why is it so important for the north to portrayed as saints and the south as devils? Does it have anything to do with the military adventurism that came from that victorious north over succeeding generations? The subjugation of Indian tribes? Teddy Roosevelt's not-so-hidden threat against the entire world in the form of the Great White Fleet? The involvement in the destruction of lawful governments and the establishment of puppet states in over fifty nations worldwide? Yet the south is the villain, right? Southern armies were just a few miles away from DC at one point in the war, and if this was truly a war to control the government (the definition of a "civil war"), then they could have ended it there. They didn't. This was a war for self-determination, which regardless of some of the components of that, was an honorable thing.

Right now, there are public figures (and some not-so-public) who are using this debate over memorials as a hot wire to achieve some other aims. The uneducated responses I see to daily activity in our country points to this. How in the world did people come to associate Donald Trump with Fascism? First, it indicates that the majority of people have no idea what the term means, with the first letter either capitalized or not. Second, asking them to explain it brings up a litany of responses related to his tax returns, his morals, his business acumen, or some nebulous perceived Russian influence - in short, nothing at all related to fascism. I believe that this is just a learned acclimatization to Trump's pillory in the mainstream press. If you believe the (well documented) story about Operation Mockingbird, then this demonization gets a whole lot scarier. (For the record, if you want a textbook example of fascism, that bundling together of private industry and public office, look at the aforementioned alliance between Lincoln and the Pennsylvania steel companies. Irony of ironies...)

(For full disclosure, I don't like Trump, I don't dislike Trump. I voted for him on one single plank of his platform, which was ending foreign military adventurism and establishing peaceful trade relations with all nations, sort of identical to that which many of the founding fathers espoused. I find it terrible that he has been so far prevented from exercising that part of his platform, largely by the current Russia scare that is being beaten to death. Anything that he does that goes against the four terms of the militarist BushObama agenda can be credited to his obvious "ties to Russia/Putin", and his move is deflated. Any member of the legislature that independently agrees to back him, or at least deviate from the current adventurist hysteria, is called "Putin's favorite". Trump talks peace with other nations, he's their puppet. He bombs Syria, he's acting like a "true American". How disgusting, yet so obviously telling about the mentality in this country. )

Further, how is it that the people who are waving swastika flags are Nazis? Because they say they are? Because others say they are? They have nothing to do with the original Nazi organization, not even tangentially. They're more like a cult of personality. Their planks distill out all the most rabid stuff from the politics and infrastruction of the Nazis and use them like a weapon against people. They hate Jews, they hate blacks, they adore Hitler, they... what else? I doubt even they could tell you. The fact that the organized ones cling together wearing clothes that were outdated by 1950 or so should tell you something. They're just another buzzword slavering horde, and its more identity politics. There aren't that many of them, and their number wouldn't grow if they weren't such a hot issue right now. Uneducated people looking to be part of something that will give them a voice will now be interested in joining. No different than the violent socialist movements in liberal arts colleges, or the gangs that spring up in low income areas.

I'd like to close - for those of you who were able to read to the end - by saying that in a free country, every idea has to be up for debate. You cannot say "its settled" and then refuse to talk about it, or demonize anyone who wants to raise the issue again, and say you're in favor of free speech. I find it very disheartening to see how far people have drifted away from the Socratic method, where ideas were constantly discussed and refined, and towards a polarized ideology where good and evil can somehow be projected on to every discussion, with prizes for the winners as established by virtue consensus. Its gotten to the point where you can't talk about the Autobahn anymore without first offering a disclaimer stating you don't hold Nazi ideology. You can't talk about education without talking about giving people a "safe space". And you definitely can't talk about how people died to support individual determination without first accusing them of racism.

Wow, that was very verbose.

All I can say is that I cannot take anyone too seriously from an ideological level when they chose to vote for the cartoon character that is Donald Trump for the Presidency of the United States.

And after reading this post, I'm not surprised.

You can nitpick and shift blame all day long.

But the truth is that anyone supporting the display of the Confederate symbol has, whether they like to or not, identified as a racist, exactly the same way white nationalists, supremacists, (or whatever English-language term you want to use) like to display the Nazi symbols (often together with the Confederate symbol, ironically).

The Sons of Confederate Veterans are as racist as their parents. So would the Sons of Nazi Veterans be, if such an organization existed (does it?) and claimed that it was not racist, but a memorial to "those who served in the German army with honor".

No. Sorry. The Emperor IS naked.

Personally, I love these overt displays because I know the individuals to avoid.

I almost wish all murderers, spouse-beaters, pedophiles, rapists, and thieves adopted and overtly displayed symbols to represent their ideology in a similar manner, just to make it easy for me to know where they are.

I don't want to debate with them, I don't want to associate with them. We cannot be friends. We're enemies. The line has to be drawn at some point, and I draw it there.
 
Wow, that was very verbose.

All I can say is that I cannot take anyone too seriously from an ideological level when they chose to vote for the cartoon character that is Donald Trump for the Presidency of the United States.

And after reading this post, I'm not surprised.

You can nitpick and shift blame all day long.

But the truth is that anyone supporting the display of the Confederate symbol has, whether they like to or not, identified as a racist, exactly the same way white nationalists, supremacists, (or whatever English-language term you want to use) like to display the Nazi symbols (often together with the Confederate symbol, ironically).

The Sons of Confederate Veterans are as racist as their parents. So would the Sons of Nazi Veterans be, if such an organization existed (does it?) and claimed that it was not racist, but a memorial to "those who served in the German army with honor".

No. Sorry. The Emperor IS naked.

Personally, I love these overt displays because I know the individuals to avoid.

I almost wish all murderers, spouse-beaters, pedophiles, rapists, and thieves adopted and overtly displayed symbols to represent their ideology in a similar manner, just to make it easy for me to know where they are.

I don't want to debate with them, I don't want to associate with them. We cannot be friends. We're enemies. The line has to be drawn at some point, and I draw it there.


Sill, with his novel, also forgot to include the fact that most of these monuments were built in the 20th century, in many cases following landmark civil rights events.



whoseheritage-timeline150_years_of_iconography.jpg
 
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You got that right! SPLC is far from a reputable organization. Apple needs to start staying out of politics. Do you happen to know if Microsoft does this type of stuff? Windows 10 is a good OS, there are many great Android Tablets now, and I have always been a Android phone user. So as long as MS is not doing the same, I have no problem switching loyalty. I can even save a lot of money in the process :).
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Can you really compare Apple to a news organization? They make their living on politics, where an electronics company, not so much.

Business may now be lost. I think my 2016 MBP may be my last Apple product :(. When I was in sales and marketing it was understood that as a business it was not a good practice to get involved with politics. We have seen Apple continue to take sides, and support some questionable organizations.

Apple has been one of the most left leaning businesses in the last decade, if you're NOW deciding to leave because of that, then they've already made more money then they should have off of you.

BTW, it's also not good practice to NOT use the right product because of political beliefs. But you seem to be ok with that.
 
Wow, that was very verbose.

All I can say is that I cannot take anyone too seriously from an ideological level when they chose to vote for the cartoon character that is Donald Trump for the Presidency of the United States.

And after reading this post, I'm not surprised.

You can nitpick and shift blame all day long.

But the truth is that anyone supporting the display of the Confederate symbol has, whether they like to or not, identified as a racist, exactly the same way white nationalists, supremacists, (or whatever English-language term you want to use) like to display the Nazi symbols (often together with the Confederate symbol, ironically).

The Sons of Confederate Veterans are as racist as their parents. So would the Sons of Nazi Veterans be, if such an organization existed (does it?) and claimed that it was not racist, but a memorial to "those who served in the German army with honor".

No. Sorry. The Emperor IS naked.

Personally, I love these overt displays because I know the individuals to avoid.

I almost wish all murderers, spouse-beaters, pedophiles, rapists, and thieves adopted and overtly displayed symbols to represent their ideology in a similar manner, just to make it easy for me to know where they are.

I don't want to debate with them, I don't want to associate with them. We cannot be friends. We're enemies. The line has to be drawn at some point, and I draw it there.
Congrats, this might be the best post in this thread.

To a degree I too like it when silly people are loud in their silly opinions. Due to Brexit I've had a good clear out of some of the more racist old school friends from bygone times, that kind of thing is always good. As you said too - I don't want to associate or know terrible people and that seems to be a growing trend these days. This topic came up at a BBQ at my brother in laws, so many people have removed bigots from their friends lists. Everyone there had got rid of at least two.

At the same BBQ someone used the famous Spoon Analogy on the topic. Saying that you only have a limited amount of energy to put up with stuff, usually the example is mental health stresses, but here it was used for dealing and trying to help bigoted people. Eventually you run out of energy and it's easier to just leave them.

(Side note one of my FAVOURITE takes on this whole "rise of nazis" thing is how, apparently, nazis are actually left wing. The crushing counter point being that they were supporting "Unite the Right". Lol)
 
Apple has been one of the most left leaning businesses in the last decade, if you're NOW deciding to leave because of that, then they've already made more money then they should have off of you.

BTW, it's also not good practice to NOT use the right product because of political beliefs. But you seem to be ok with that.

On the first part of your statement....I knew they were left leaning, and I am okay with that. However, Tim Cook has not seemed to be able to separate business from politics.

On your second part, your sentence was a little confusing, so I hope I am addressing it correctly....When you say "NOT use the right product", do you think that I only have to use Apple products? I like them very much, and prefer them. But I am the first to admit I have never had to say "I need a Mac for that", but there are times that I do say..."I need Windows for that". Switching to a Microsoft/Android combo, I can do just as much if not more then using Apple products, and save a lot of money in the process.

(I am going to be sick at my own post:().
 
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On the first part of your statement....I knew they were left leaning, and I am okay with that. However, Tim Cook has not seemed to be able to separate business from politics.

On your second part, your sentence was a little confusing, so I hope I am addressing it correctly....When you say "NOT use the right product", do you think that I only have to use Apple products? I like them very much, and prefer them. But I am the first to admit I have never had to say "I need a Mac for that", but there are times that I do say..."I need Windows for that". Switching to a Microsoft/Android combo, I can do just as much if not more then using Apple products, and save a lot of money in the process.

(I am going to be sick at my own post:().

I agree that Tim Cook has now thrown Apple deeper into political discussion then before, but you gotta admit, today's President is unlike any we've ever had in the history of this country. Their hand is being forced when we have a President that attacks immigrants, LGBTQ, and pretty much anyone that's not white. Those same people he's attacking are the ones that make up most of their employees and customer base. If anything at all, alienating a few people that agree with Trump (or prefer that politics not be included at all) is a small cost to the positive publicity they'll be making.

As for my second comment, you noted that you may be leaving Apple. Why were you with them to begin with? I'd imagine it's because they provided the best tool for the job (though you're reply seems to indicate you don't believe that). Political beliefs aside, you should leave them anyway as it'd save you money and you don't seem to indicate any explicitly reason why Apple is for you (especially when you noted you have some Windows only requirements).

Me personally, I think Windows (10) is better the macOS, though iOS is still better then Android (due to fragmentation). Android watches (most of them) are better then the Apple Watch, but again (due to iOS) iPads are better then any Android tablet. As for the AppleTV, no different then having a roku. But right now a Windows/Android combo would be far too disjointed to make the switch. The closest I got to leaving was when Microsoft was showing their continuum system. But that died (along with Windows Phone OS) before it got off the ground.

The only reason I stuck with Apple is because of the cohesiveness between all their products (laptop, phone, tablet, watch, tv). If I didn't rely so heavily on both my laptop and phone (i.e., if I only needed one or the other for my job) I'd of left long ago. But that seamless integration between the two devices can't not be duplicated by any other platform combo. It also naturally extends to the tablet/watch/tv systems.

Long story short, their products are too good to really care about what 'politics' they get involved with. Especially since all they're doing is continue their left leaning agenda.
 
I agree that Tim Cook has now thrown Apple deeper into political discussion then before, but you gotta admit, today's President is unlike any we've ever had in the history of this country. Their hand is being forced when we have a President that attacks immigrants, LGBTQ, and pretty much anyone that's not white. Those same people he's attacking are the ones that make up most of their employees and customer base. If anything at all, alienating a few people that agree with Trump (or prefer that politics not be included at all) is a small cost to the positive publicity they'll be making.

As for my second comment, you noted that you may be leaving Apple. Why were you with them to begin with? I'd imagine it's because they provided the best tool for the job (though you're reply seems to indicate you don't believe that). Political beliefs aside, you should leave them anyway as it'd save you money and you don't seem to indicate any explicitly reason why Apple is for you (especially when you noted you have some Windows only requirements).

Me personally, I think Windows (10) is better the macOS, though iOS is still better then Android (due to fragmentation). Android watches (most of them) are better then the Apple Watch, but again (due to iOS) iPads are better then any Android tablet. As for the AppleTV, no different then having a roku. But right now a Windows/Android combo would be far too disjointed to make the switch. The closest I got to leaving was when Microsoft was showing their continuum system. But that died (along with Windows Phone OS) before it got off the ground.

The only reason I stuck with Apple is because of the cohesiveness between all their products (laptop, phone, tablet, watch, tv). If I didn't rely so heavily on both my laptop and phone (i.e., if I only needed one or the other for my job) I'd of left long ago. But that seamless integration between the two devices can't not be duplicated by any other platform combo. It also naturally extends to the tablet/watch/tv systems.

Long story short, their products are too good to really care about what 'politics' they get involved with. Especially since all they're doing is continue their left leaning agenda.

I have not seen Trump do anything of which you stated. His policies have been very good, although he is not very articulate. It is great to see a president finally wanting immigrants to take the legal route into the US. It is great to see a president that does not sign a bad climate change agreement that requires the US to pay for the world to do their part. Love his restrictions for lobbyists. Not sure where you are getting the LGBTQ and non white stuff.

I wasn't expecting much from him, so have been pleasantly surprised.

I totally agree with you on the electronic statement. Windows 10 is actually very good. Most of my family has switch as they find it easier to use then OSX. I think I am the last hold out as I still really like OSX Sierra. I admit it is not as user friendly, but I still prefer it over Windows. On iOS...I really like it for tablets over Android, and it isn't even close IMO, but for phones it is a different story. For me and phones Android has it hands down. Everything I need is right at my finger tips, and I love the widgets. Not sure I will ever leave Android on the phones side.
 
I have not seen Trump do anything of which you stated. His policies have been very good, although he is not very articulate. It is great to see a president finally wanting immigrants to take the legal route into the US. It is great to see a president that does not sign a bad climate change agreement that requires the US to pay for the world to do their part. Love his restrictions for lobbyists. Not sure where you are getting the LGBTQ and non white stuff.

I wasn't expecting much from him, so have been pleasantly surprised.

I totally agree with you on the electronic statement. Windows 10 is actually very good. Most of my family has switch as they find it easier to use then OSX. I think I am the last hold out as I still really like OSX Sierra. I admit it is not as user friendly, but I still prefer it over Windows. On iOS...I really like it for tablets over Android, and it isn't even close IMO, but for phones it is a different story. For me and phones Android has it hands down. Everything I need is right at my finger tips, and I love the widgets. Not sure I will ever leave Android on the phones side.

Regarding Trump, this excerpt from the John Oliver show says all that needs to be said about our current President, and those that still defend him:


And it's not just John's comments (which are unequivocably spot on), it's the clips of news that do ALL the talking.

And since we're on the subject of hate, I'll flat out say that I HATE that that guy is our President.
 
Regarding Trump, this excerpt from the John Oliver show says all that needs to be said about our current President, and those that still defend him:


And it's not just John's comments (which are unequivocably spot on), it's the clips of news that do ALL the talking.

And since we're on the subject of hate, I'll flat out say that I HATE that that guy is our President.

Instead of watching others opinions with a few seconds of clips of what was said, I actually watched the presidents speech itself.
 
Sill, with his novel, also forgot to include the fact that most of these monuments were built in the 20th century, in many cases following landmark civil rights events.



View attachment 713936

Why do you fail to mention that Democrats were responsible for these statues? And a century later the left wants to erase the memory of their racist past, while blaming everyone on the right for it having existed.

Clearly if the Civil Rights movement has nothing better to do then riot over old civic art, then we should all celebrate because clearly the chapter in history of discrimination is over.

Wouldn't adding some plaques to explain the historical significance of all this be of a much more valuable civic service? I think that kind of trumps (pun not intended) the emotional significance of those who'd rather forget. Sorry it happened, the statues got built, put them in their proper context rather than the head in the sand mentality. Its what grown-ups do, babies whine, stomp their feet and throw tantrums (or in this case rocks, bottles and urine).
 
Why do you fail to mention that Democrats were responsible for these statues? And a century later the left wants to erase the memory of their racist past, while blaming everyone on the right for it having existed.
Because most of us are literate in the history of our own country. The Democrats were blatantly a racist party, up until the civil rights era where the Republican Party implemented the Southern Strategy explicitly using racial tensions (aka, enlisting racist white people) in order to win elections.

That's not disputable. Anyone that cared about their country enough to take five minutes to learn their history knows this. Nixon's campaign advisers were ****ing explicit about using it.
 
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I agree that Tim Cook has now thrown Apple deeper into political discussion then before, but you gotta admit, today's President is unlike any we've ever had in the history of this country. Their hand is being forced when we have a President that attacks immigrants, LGBTQ, and pretty much anyone that's not white. Those same people he's attacking are the ones that make up most of their employees and customer base. If anything at all, alienating a few people that agree with Trump (or prefer that politics not be included at all) is a small cost to the positive publicity they'll be making.

That's horse ****. Neither Apple nor Tim Cook's hand is being forced into anything. A woman was killed in a riot between bigots, and they chose to get on board with one side in the cause. And you've yet to explain:

1. How does giving money to a bigoted organization help in any way with what happened in Charlottesville?
2. How does giving money to a very wealthy law firm, that's engaged in very public discriminatory behavior help equality?
3. How does Tim Cook asking employees to give money to a bigoted group of lawyers help equality?

I'm suspecting the answer to these is because you don't think discrimination against the right is morally wrong. You see a couple of fools on one side, and have formed a bigoted opinion of what you imagine is a whole group. You probably think Republicans are mostly evil, and think most Democrats aren't. Because if you were really about equality, you'd see thru this shallow tactic of stoking partisan bigotry on both sides.

Also... you're not the only one, but what's up with this 'white' people term you use? Why are you (and others) freely using racist terminology to deliberately misidentify actual skin colors and discriminate accordingly?

Can any of you get a box of crayons or a Pantone guide and figure this out? If you plan on being discriminatory on race, and biased along the color of someone's skin, could you at least properly identity the shade? Hint: this should be a clue y'all need to find a way to gracefully back out of the whole subject of discrimination, and reflect upon your own prejudices.
 
I have not seen Trump do anything of which you stated. His policies have been very good, although he is not very articulate. It is great to see a president finally wanting immigrants to take the legal route into the US. It is great to see a president that does not sign a bad climate change agreement that requires the US to pay for the world to do their part. Love his restrictions for lobbyists. Not sure where you are getting the LGBTQ and non white stuff.

I wasn't expecting much from him, so have been pleasantly surprised.

I totally agree with you on the electronic statement. Windows 10 is actually very good. Most of my family has switch as they find it easier to use then OSX. I think I am the last hold out as I still really like OSX Sierra. I admit it is not as user friendly, but I still prefer it over Windows. On iOS...I really like it for tablets over Android, and it isn't even close IMO, but for phones it is a different story. For me and phones Android has it hands down. Everything I need is right at my finger tips, and I love the widgets. Not sure I will ever leave Android on the phones side.

You obviously lean right, and there's nothing wrong with that. I have plenty of friends that are on the right, and me personally don't care about sides. I'm of the "to each their own" mindset. But there's plenty that Trump has done/said to show he is of the extreme right. Trump has flat out avoided putting blame solely on the recent nazi extremists (by their own statements are only emboldened by their belief that Trump supports them). This is both liberals as well as conservatives that believe trump is supporting the extreme right. Even after they ran someone over and committed murder, he put's blame on the victims.

His recent immigration bans on Muslim countries did absolutely NOTHING to stop illegals from coming over from those countries. All that did was stop people that LEGALLY applied to come here.

Didn't you read about his LGBTQ ban on the military? Again, the generals that actually RUN the military where thrown off by this and don't plan on enforcing it.

As for climate change, I agree that the US shouldn't pay for other countries responsibilities. I'd even say to take it a step further and abolish the billions in aid packages we send to foreign governments, unless there's a natural disaster (we should help as a humanitarian effort). But you don't see Trump doing that. Great, we saved a few million off the climate change deal, but he continues to send hundreds of billions to foreign governments (not his doing, but he has the power to stop it). So don't fall for the climate change deal. It's a drop in the bucket and used as marketing (which is how he became successful in business, and apparently some people are falling for as President).
 
Instead of watching others opinions with a few seconds of clips of what was said, I actually watched the presidents speech itself.

Which is exactly the type of non-answer that he gave when directly asked.

Whether or not I watched the entire speech (I did) is irrelevant, and a common and classic deflection of the subject at hand when confronted with no BS, obvious truth.

There's no way to spin this. It "spins" itself.
 
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Just admit it, you're buying into Russian propaganda by believing RT is a credible news source. There are piles of information clearly showing it's financially supported and directed by the Kremlin. Enjoy what the Russians are feeding you.
RT is not a credible News source, but neither are CNN, Fox, MSNBC and all the others. They are all feeding us nonsense most of the time, much of it directed by those who hold power. By no means do I like or support Trump, I am a Sanders type of person, but do any of these Russia allegations have been actually verified by facts and evidence, I still haven't seen a shred of evidence. All innuendo and bullcrap, to obfuscate the public from the real problems and agendas going on.

Common sense has been shelved and a range of hyper sensitive identity politics topics and hysteria has been presented to keep the masses busy bashing each other's heads in.
 
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Because most of us are literate in the history of our own country. The Democrats were blatantly a racist party, up until the civil rights era where the Republican Party implemented the Southern Strategy explicitly using racial tensions (aka, enlisting racist white people) in order to win elections.

That's not disputable. Anyone that cared about their country enough to take five minutes to learn their history knows this. Nixon's campaign advisers were ****ing explicit about using it.

You are either ignorant of history, or deliberately obscuring it.
-----

Lyndon B. Johnson (Democrat president directly preceding Nixon) was a very, well documented racist. One example, he singed the Civil Rights Act, but while lobbying for it to other Democrats, he referred to it as the "n***** bill".
-----

If the past isn't your forte, how about the present?
-----

Racism from today's top Democrats:

"You cannot go to a 7-11 or a Dunkin Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent. I'm not joking!"
-Joe Biden (previous VP of the US)

"I will not let the white boys win in this election."
-Donna Brazile (Intern DNC Chair 2016-2017, former Al Gore campaign manager)

Hard Reid stated after being impressed by Obama's oratorical gifts and believing the country was ready to embrace a black presidential candidate, especially one such as a Obama — a 'light-skinned' African American with 'no Negro dialect, unless he wanted to have one.'"
-Harry Reid (former Democrat Senator and Senate Majority Leader)

Taking a question from Robin Gandhi, an assistant professor at the University of Nebraska and a man of Indian descent: "You're not a member of the Taliban are you?"
-Chuck Hagel (Secretary of Defense Obama Administration, former Democrat Senator)

"The point I was making was not that Grandmother harbors any racial animosity. She doesn't. But she is a typical white person, who, if she sees somebody on the street that she doesn't know, you know, there's a reaction that's been bred in our experiences that don't go away and that sometimes come out in the wrong way, and that's just the nature of race in our society."
-Barrack Obama (previous President of the US)
-----

So if we agree that Democrats were racist in the past, please point to the event or period in which Democrats were not openly harboring racists. Once we've established this 'not racist' baseline for one party, then we can begin the comparisons with the other, have an honest accounting of all this ugliness, and see how it all stacks up. Ready?
 
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That's horse ****. Neither Apple nor Tim Cook's hand is being forced into anything. A woman was killed in a riot between bigots, and they chose to get on board with one side in the cause. And you've yet to explain:

1. How does giving money to a bigoted organization help in any way with what happened in Charlottesville?
2. How does giving money to a very wealthy law firm, that's engaged in very public discriminatory behavior help equality?
3. How does Tim Cook asking employees to give money to a bigoted group of lawyers help equality?

I'm suspecting the answer to these is because you don't think discrimination against the right is morally wrong. You see a couple of fools on one side, and have formed a bigoted opinion of what you imagine is a whole group. You probably think Republicans are mostly evil, and think most Democrats aren't. Because if you were really about equality, you'd see thru this shallow tactic of stoking partisan bigotry on both sides.

Also... you're not the only one, but what's up with this 'white' people term you use? Why are you (and others) freely using racist terminology to deliberately misidentify actual skin colors and discriminate accordingly?

Can any of you get a box of crayons or a Pantone guide and figure this out? If you plan on being discriminatory on race, and biased along the color of someone's skin, could you at least properly identity the shade? Hint: this should be a clue y'all need to find a way to gracefully back out of the whole subject of discrimination, and reflect upon your own prejudices.

Well then, I guess we all know which side you're on. Lets just say I check the "white" box on forms, so am I considered self-hating now lol? The reason we're using the "white" term is because it's all over the news. There are these "white" supremacists that are currently having a hissy fit about some statues.

Also, where did I say what they're doing is helping anything? I just said they were forced to join. And I'm not saying forced as in they're being benevolent (far from it). They're forced because most of their employees fall into a category target by Trump. I actually sound like a conspiracy theorist when discussing Apple (which I'm sure you're familiar with), but I believe everything Apple does is self-motivated. This high horse they seem to think they're mounting is only so that they can get some free publicity. My immediate thought was that if they truly cared about those in need, they'd of focused more on the education market and offer lower priced devices for low income families. But that's for a different discussion.
 
You are either ignorant of history, or deliberately obscuring it.
-----

Lyndon B. Johnson (Democrat president directly preceding Nixon) was a very, well documented racist. One example, he singed the Civil Rights Act, but while lobbying for it to other Democrats, he referred to it as the "n***** bill".
-----

If the past isn't your forte, how about the present?
-----

Racism from today's top Democrats:

"You cannot go to a 7-11 or a Dunkin Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent. I'm not joking!"
-Joe Biden (previous VP of the US)

"I will not let the white boys win in this election."
-Donna Brazile (Intern DNC Chair 2016-2017, former Al Gore campaign manager)

Hard Reid stated after being impressed by Obama's oratorical gifts and believing the country was ready to embrace a black presidential candidate, especially one such as a Obama — a 'light-skinned' African American with 'no Negro dialect, unless he wanted to have one.'"
-Harry Reid (former Democrat Senator and Senate Majority Leader)

Taking a question from Robin Gandhi, an assistant professor at the University of Nebraska and a man of Indian descent: "You're not a member of the Taliban are you?"
-Chuck Hagel (Secretary of Defense Obama Administration, former Democrat Senator)

"The point I was making was not that Grandmother harbors any racial animosity. She doesn't. But she is a typical white person, who, if she sees somebody on the street that she doesn't know, you know, there's a reaction that's been bred in our experiences that don't go away and that sometimes come out in the wrong way, and that's just the nature of race in our society."
-Barrack Obama (previous President of the US)
-----

So if we agree that Democrats were racist in the past, please point to the event or period in which Democrats were not openly harboring racists. Once we've established this 'not racist' baseline for one party, then we can begin the comparisons with the other, have an honest accounting of all this ugliness, and see how it all stacks up. Ready?


lol. Wait, are you seriously suggesting that Obama citing implicit bias towards people of color (a phenomenon proven through lots and lots of scholarship) makes him racist?
 
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