Apple please listen; I want a MacBook but Dell is cheaper & better equipped

[suneohair]

you are not the first person to bring up this "total ownership" stuff, my answer is same: "you don't know the freeware world of pc". those "virus" stuff is ill-informed at best, and those "how long the computers last" are weak with no data support.

Virus stuff is not ill-informed, not everyone is tech savvy. Most people that own Windows computers get viruses and have problems. I don't care if some geek doesnt have viruses. Fact remains that most people get them because they don't know how to protect their computer.

How long computers last is completely relevant here. Did you bother reading my post? Last doesnt mean when it will break down, how long before it starts to feel slow since it uses cheap components.

Take a look at the price on the M65 or M90, now how cheap is the low end 15" or 17"? You think the price jumps up for no reason? Just because... no. They use higher quality components thus the price reflects that.

Total ownership is completely relevant. Add to the table resale value. Let me see you sell that Dell for 70% of its original price in 2 years. You can't do it.

Try to sell a Mac notebook for 70% of its value in 2 years, you would get it or pretty darn close.

Why do you think people are buying the Hondas and Toyotas? Because they are better cars and they have better resale making their total cost of ownership less. You do know that total cost of ownership is a factor in any buying decision right? Wait, you would rather get the $599 Dell and lost all your money on it. Whereas I can buy a Mac, and sell it off a few years down the line for a new one. You on the other will be stuck with that Dell.

Go ahead... get the Dell.

 

[Graeme A]

you are not the first person to bring up this "total ownership" stuff, my answer is same: "you don't know the freeware world of pc". those "virus" stuff is ill-informed at best, and those "how long the computers last" are weak with no data support.

Dell PC: Good spec machine at the time; 1Gb of RAM, 1.9Ghz upgrade; left with relatives for 1 year, it came back riddled with viruses and I ended up gutting the thing for parts.

HP Laptop: Resonable machine but USB ports quit working after 2 years, screen flickers, etc.

Newest HP Laptop: Virus after 1 month, 2 days spent fixing it up. I am not like my rellies and keep virus protection up to date, and not the free versions.

Freeware doesn't cut much ice when you rely on the machine for your livelihood. But as I am unversed in the way of the freeware... show me the freeware version of TOAD, then i will listen.

 

[Chrispy]

Honestly, for the price I strongly feel Apple's pro models (MacBook Pro and MacPro) should come with a 3 year warranty standard. That would make it a much better sell in my book. In addition, if Apple's support was better that would help too. I have been reading some promising things lately that show a trend in the right direction, but there was a really rough 6 month period there. I knew a few people who got macbooks and they were troubled so they returned them (thankfully avoiding having to deal with repairs since it was withing 14 days).

In addition, if Apple is going to make LCDs standard in a large majority of their computers they need to have a zero pixel defect policy. Samsung has one such policy so the argument that it is not financially possible are simply not true. For selling computers that are supposed to be designed for graphic design and video professionals, Apple is really behind the times in this regard.

I can see both sides of the price vs. experience argument BUT for that to hold true Apple really needs to keep their hardware up-to-date. If they want to charge more for a macbook pro than a Dell then that is fine but at least have the best hardware in the computer. Yes, it is about the experience but it is also about money and reliability.

 

[suneohair]

and i understand what you're talking about. You bring up your points nicely UNLIKE the other fanboys on here. All they say is dell sucks go buy one and leave us alone. They don't respond to anything and just talk about this experience. i'm not writing them off as too expensive...as you can see i have some money in apple right now. I have more apple machines then i do PC. It's the fact about how the fanboys act is what annoys me the most. But for a lot of people having a laptop that is an inch thick isn't a big factor. They are looking at price. My point is.....if apple will want to grow and take over market share it's not going to happen at the current prices. If someone came to me and asked me to recommend them a laptop and they had a budget of say $750...they can't afford a mac that "starts" at $1099. so for apple to get anywhere they need to lessen some specs on an entry level notebook bc if they don't change it will continue to always be a niche market.

They will make more money in that niche market. If we had data on Apple profit margins vs. Dell profit margins I am sure Apple would own Dell.

Dell kills them in Total Revenue though, because they sell in big volumes.

Of course Apple could make some cheaper stuff and try to expand, which may very well be a Long run plan of theirs as they drop prices (which they have been doing).

Economics tells use however that in the short run you can't change anything. Apple just switched to Intel do you really think they could start churning out $799 notebooks already?

No. That is a long run goal. Economis tells us that in the long run anything can be changed. Expecting Apple to make big market changes and price movements at this stage ( less than a year after the Intel announcement) is foolish and selfish.

Chatting on this forum does nothing for you, as none of us know Apples plan. Nor will it make Apple give you what you want.

For instance they are probably having a hard time right now with the switch to Merom. They could be stuck with tons of stock they need get rid of to make the changeover. Which could be why it is taking so long.

Critisizing a company is fine, but do it from a knowledgable standpoint. They are a business and thus to remain an effective one they have to make choices that are sound and steady and they can have many long run goals in the works.

All I ask is that you be fair in your assessment. Things don't change overnight.

 

[jagolden]

Sigh. I hope you're wrong. That is, I would hope -- in fact, I'd bet money -- that Apple's marketing people monitor these forums for feedback.

My problem is, the MacBook would be my second Mac and really wouldn't be much more than a web browser.

boxlight

"Marketing people" at large companies do not have the time to be monitoring forums until a particular subject makes BIG noise. Price differences are not big noise.

If the second computer is only for web browsing, the low end MacBook should be sufficient.

The barn door is already closed but a better solution would have been to buy a loaded MacBook or MacBook Pro with a larger external monitor.

 

[clevin]

Dell PC: Good spec machine at the time; 1Gb of RAM, 1.9Ghz upgrade; left with relatives for 1 year, it came back riddled with viruses and I ended up gutting the thing for parts.

I don't know if thats your attitude towards PC, but in the situation you described, most people would just re-install OS rather than abandon the machine, but any means, 99.999999% virus only hurt OS, not hardware.

HP Laptop: Resonable machine but USB ports quit working after 2 years, screen flickers, etc.

If you can use your individual case against HP, do you mind I say MacBook RSS is the reason to say Mac is not stable at all?

Newest HP Laptop: Virus after 1 month, 2 days spent fixing it up. I am not like my rellies and keep virus protection up to date, and not the free versions.

Freeware doesn't cut much ice when you rely on the machine for your livelihood. But as I am unversed in the way of the freeware... show me the freeware version of TOAD, then i will listen.

I relied on my Compaq for 4 years, and the only reason you cant depend on your freeware is simply because you didn't find good ones.
just count them:
Firefox/Thunderbird/Opera/Gimp/Gaim/winamp/openoffice/uTorrent/Azureus/IrFan view/DVD shrink/DVD decrypter/fileZilla/a!vast/roboform/
these are all solid, better quality freewares.
and I assume the TOAD u mentioned is this: http://www.toadsoft.com/
then You off the topic, I never said freeware can do everything, I just said freeware can do the thing you mentioned that "mac doesn't need to worry about while PC need to spend money on"

 

[boxlight]

Inspiron 640m Dual Core
$1,426
That is the real price from Dell's site. That also does not include any virus protection SW (required), or any comparable Apple iLife SW. People who make these wild claims should post their actual quotes if they wish to be believed. Otherwise, they smell of Dell marketers.

Here's a REPOST of the screen shot with the quote. $999 Canadian.

http://www.rightclick.ca/misc/dell screen shot.JPG

Read the whole thread before calling people a liar, smart guy.

boxlight

 

[Graeme A]

I don't know if thats your attitude towards PC, but in the situation you described, most people would just re-install OS rather than abandon the machine, but any means, 99.999999% virus only hurt OS, not hardware.

If you can use your individual case against HP, do you mind I say MacBook RSS is the reason to say Mac is not stable at all?

I relied on my Compaq for 4 years, and the only reason you cant depend on your freeware is simply because you didn't find good ones.
just count them:
Firefox/Thunderbird/Opera/Gimp/Gaim/winamp/openoffice/uTorrent/Azureus/IrFan view/DVD shrink/DVD decrypter/fileZilla/a!vast/roboform/
these are all solid, better quality freewares.

Dell PC had issues with the keyboard port not working - thats the reason it got tossed in the hard waste collection.

I am not holding all PC's against my experience with that HP laptop, I am merely giving examples to your points of viruses (ill-informed, NOT), how reliable they last (no data support?), and the freeware.

Wow! That's an impressive list of stuff, unfortunately, I would not bother to use any of it but, each to their own.

 

[clevin]

Dell PC had issues with the keyboard port not working - thats the reason it got tossed in the hard waste collection.

I am not holding all PC's against my experience with that HP laptop, I am merely giving examples to your points of viruses (ill-informed, NOT), how reliable they last (no data support?), and the freeware.

Wow! That's an impressive list of stuff, unfortunately, I would not bother to use any of it but, each to their own.

yeah, im giving u example of mac being unstable, that should convince u the reason u think mac is better isn't true. if u like generalization.
i don't like footballing the topic, but u are not being reasonable and u obviously didn't even bother to check if your argument is valid in today's pc industry.

 

[yojitani]

Is this thread about having a reasonably priced entry level mac? I don't see how you can disagree with that. MacMini, bless its little mechanical heart, is not really a good solution. It's a bugger to upgrade (adding ram or HD) and doesn't even come with a keyboard. But, I have found all my PC's to be pains for one reason or another.
That said, PC's do last. My mother has just stopped using the Gateway PoS that I had in 1995 - still with Windows 95 on it! I mean, it was crap when I had it, but it kept going for 11 years! She's now using my sister's toshiba laptop from 1999. BUT, she wants a mac. Why? Because fanboy here (me btw) has reassured her that all the little nuisances she has with her windows machines will be a thing of the past (and I'll provide phone tech help). BUT she can't afford one. That and she's decided she wants some media machine that connects to the TV and whatever else (totally not my thing, so I can't help her much there). Macs aren't up there with the Sony etc. media machines and they aren't up there with price. Not to say that what mac offers isn't worth it, but they don't really offer something for lower end users. I don't see how anyone could argue against that.

 

[yojitani]

Inspiron 640m Dual Core
$1,426
That is the real price from Dell's site. That also does not include any virus protection SW (required), or any comparable Apple iLife SW. People who make these wild claims should post their actual quotes if they wish to be believed. Otherwise, they smell of Dell marketers.

Here's a REPOST of the screen shot with the quote. $999 Canadian.

http://www.rightclick.ca/misc/dell screen shot.JPG

Read the whole thread before calling people a liar, smart guy.

boxlight

I can't find a 640m, but the 1405 by my calculations comes to 1297 and the comparable mac is 1449. The screenshot above doesn't include bluetooth, it also has the basic wireless which is not as powerful as the mac wireless (hence my office mate takes my comp home to sponge off the neighbors' wireless!), it also doesn't provide a comparable screen. Factor those things in and the price differential isn't so great. A couple hundred bucks seems to be apple's take on the name premium, check out the black macbook for example.
All that aside, I don't think the Inspiron series is comparable. You should be comparing with the XPS. Inspirons are monsters!

 

[boxlight]

(MacBook Pro and MacPro) should come with a 3 year warranty standard. That would make it a much better sell in my book.

Just FYI,

Retailers don't want to sell electronics that come with a 3 year warranty because they can make more profit selling an extended warranty than by selling the computer itself. In the early nineties, Sony dropped all the warranties on their TVs from 3 years to 1 year for that very reason.

$1250 MacBook probably has a $125 profit for a retailer. Sell a $299 extended warranty and that's about $250 pure profit (about $50 to the insurance company backing the warranty).

If Apple bumped the warranty up to 3 years, that's another reason for the big box stores to NOT carry their product.

boxlight

 

[Chrispy]

(MacBook Pro and MacPro) should come with a 3 year warranty standard. That would make it a much better sell in my book.

Just FYI,

Retailers don't want to sell electronics that come with a 3 year warranty because they can make more profit selling an extended warranty than by selling the computer itself. In the early nineties, Sony dropped all the warranties on their TVs from 3 years to 1 year for that very reason.

$1250 MacBook probably has a $125 profit for a retailer. Sell a $299 extended warranty and that's about $250 pure profit (about $50 to the insurance company backing the warranty).

If Apple bumped the warranty up to 3 years, that's another reason for the big box stores to NOT carry their product.

boxlight

I was not talking about the macbook I was talking about the pro line. The sole reason my company selected a dell over Apple (much to my argument) was because the Dell came with a 3 year warranty standard (as most Dell business line computers do ... such as the Latitudes).

 

[farqueue]

everybody just s.t.f.u arghhhhhhhhhh
let the troll but what he wants to buy

at least we mac users get to watch $10000000000000000 worth of porn with 0 viruses

so

i demand everybody go have a cold shower and release some stress!!!

 

[Veritas&Equitas]

i demand everybody go have a cold shower and release some stress!!!

1. Both color & font uncalled for.
2. It'd be pretty *hard* for me to "relieve some stress" in a *cold* shower

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[JAT]

hmmmm yeah i have NO clue about pc prices whatsoever!!!! hmmm i also didn't buy my dell 700m in my sig for $679 either.....but hey that's impossible and not true either.

Are you physically unable to notice that Dell is not the only Windows PC manufacturer on the planet? Priced out a Sony VGN-SZ340, trying to be comparable to the Macbook at $1100 and your Dell at $900 or whatever you mentioned before. I can't seem to get one quite exactly the same naturally, but it came out to $1570. That did include their fingerprint reader which the others don't have, so you could knock off $50-100 if that was removable from the specs of this model. This was with a C2D, but I used the 1.66MHz version to try to be similar to the 1.83 CD in the Apple. The Sony is somewhat lighter at just over 4#, but they don't have one in 13" in the 5# range. A Thinkpad Z61t came to $1260. But of course that is missing the camera and software that Apple or Dell throw in, and has a 14" screen, not a precise comparison.

That's:
Dell $700-900 (I can't remember your spec-ed out price on a current model, I came up with $858, on sale from $1058)
Apple $1100
Lenovo $1260
Fujitsu $1350 (not widescreen or a Core proc, but only 4#)
Sony $1570

I submit that: Yes, you have no clue about PC prices if the only website you can look up says "Dell".

The Sony and the Apple are the most full featured, Sony on hardware and Apple on software and industrial design. I'll stand by my comment made in May, shortly after I purchased my wife the base Macbook: It's the best deal in a laptop computer in the history of laptop computers. Not the cheapest, but the best value. (nobody's even mentioned the screen quality anywhere in this thread)

I've had Dell notebooks, and dealt with other peoples', too. Those experiences will preclude me from ever spending money on one. It's not even on the list of possible choices. When I shopped for laptops the last 2 years, my mfgr short list became shorter and shorter, ending at Sony and Apple. (Fujitsu made a strong showing, but they seem to update even less often than Apple, don't even have a widescreen in this range) Then Apple switched to Intel and the list had only 1 item left.

 

[FFTT]

This kinda stuff always happens between revisions.

I don't think Apple will use every processor that Intel makes available for one reason or the other.

I know it's frustrating when one reads that there's something slightly faster out there, but that doesn't mean it will meet Apple's very strict thermal guidelines.

I think it's safe to say that we've beaten this dead horse beyond the limits of forensic recognition.

 

[Veritas&Equitas]

...but that doesn't mean it will meet Apple's very strict thermal guidelines.

Way too many jokes that could be entered here.

Or maybe you were sarcastic?

 

[MacManTexas56]

I submit that: Yes, you have no clue about PC prices if the only website you can look up says "Dell".

really? since when did i venture out to say anything else about other pc manufacturers prices? I didn't! I wouldn't buy any other machine than a dell or apple. I go with dell for notebooks and apple for desktops. The reason i didn't mention other pc's is bc they are too expensive as well. If you have dell churning out low priced budget pc's with just as good as specs as apple for HALF the cost why overpay or even go with IBM whose prices are ridiculous too.

go walk into any office or someone's house and tell me what kinda computer they have sitting there. 8 times out of 10 it's a dell.

dell is a beast when it comes to computing....they own HUGE market share. if you don't see that then you need to open your eyes a bit more.

 

[prady16]

Ok now.....We are in need for ideas to stop this thread!
Wait....I got one.....
Mods...Are you listening???

 

[wchong]

Ok now.....We are in need for ideas to stop this thread!
Wait....I got one.....
Mods...Are you listening???

nooo the parade must go on!!!

 

[Foggy]

Honestly, for the price I strongly feel Apple's pro models (MacBook Pro and MacPro) should come with a 3 year warranty standard. That would make it a much better sell in my book. In addition, if Apple's support was better that would help too. I have been reading some promising things lately that show a trend in the right direction, but there was a really rough 6 month period there. I knew a few people who got macbooks and they were troubled so they returned them (thankfully avoiding having to deal with repairs since it was withing 14 days).

Apple warranties are hideously expensive in my opinion. For the price of a MBP I expected to have 3 year next business day on site warranty and was pretty gobsmacked to see it as a £280 extra (and that still isnt on site next day). For all the grief Dell gets, I have only ever had to call out an engineer once (this is in the last 5 years with approx 10 laptops, 15 desktops and 5 servers) for a laptop thats graphics card died and they were there the next day, fixed it in about an hour and left us with a fully working laptop.

In regards to the price debate:

The price is also a bit of a difficult one at times to justify. We are about to buy a computer for the study. It will mainly be for web surfing but also sometimes used by my wife for work (working with word, powerpoint and excel documents), I want to buy a 20" iMac (£999) (and would then need parallels or bootcamp, another copy of XP), she would rather save the money and buy a relatively cheap Dell machine with 1gb ram, 19" upgraded lcd screen, 3ghz P4 and 3 year onsite warranty for about £580. Ok it doesnt come with iLife etc, but we dont need it, we will have that on my MBP when I get it back. Viruses? Cant think of the last one I had, being in IT I have a well configured main firewall, firewall enabled on the PC, decent AV software and if I get too concerned I will chuck Ubuntu on the thing.

The other option is a Mac Mini, but that is still gonna be £650 by the time I whack 1gb in and buy a 20" LCD screen.

Personally I just prefer OSX but the wife would rather spend the extra £400 on something else - for her the difference in processor speeds etc when web surfing really are quite irrelevant (she would still be happily using my P3 800mhz compaq laptop if it hadnt just recently died).

I quite agree you cant price Apple machines directly against Dells, but at the same time you cant argue that price is irrelevant for everyone else just because it is for you.

 

[FFTT]

The average home user does not have their own personal IT administrator to help keep their system trouble free.

Most people just want their system to work with the least amount of hassle.

 

[clevin]

The average home user does not have their own personal IT administrator to help keep their system trouble free.

Most people just want their system to work with the least amount of hassle.

there isn't a question about your statement, while there IS a question about how much that should cost.
as well as the facts that Apple 1) DOES have disadvantages in the application field (game, etc). 2) is not trouble free as you might think (just check my RSS.........).

 

[suneohair]

there isn't a question about your statement, while there IS a question about how much that should cost.
as well as the facts that Apple 1) DOES have disadvantages in the application field (game, etc). 2) is not trouble free as you might think (just check my RSS.........).

And the cost is affordable. Look at the mini, the iMac, the Macbook. Very reasonable machines which give you all the benefits of having a Mac.

Now maybe there should be a lower end 15" or 17". I am not going to argue that.

Disadvantages are moot now with Intel. There is boot camp, parallels, and things that crossover that gives you the best of both worlds.

My Macs are trouble free. I don't know what you do to yours but hey mine is good. Which the majority of people owning Macs experience. Whereas Windows computers have way more issues. You can call it market share of course but no one could ever prove either scenario.