Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Apple Says New Mac Pro and Pro Display XDR Are Coming in September [Updated]
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
Convince me of what? How am I dug in? I have no clue what you’re talking about.
1) It’s not double. The 2013 cylinder was $3995 (closer to $4,400 in today’s dollars) for a 6-core/16GB model with zero PCIe slots. Yes, the base price has gone up, but you also get a much better Mac Pro. (Same situation with the Mac mini.)
2) It’s not overpriced. The base unit contains everything needed to support a fully maxed machine: 8 PCIe slots (including three x16 and one x8 double wide slots, which also support the 475W MPX modules that include four additional Thunderbolt 3 ports each); 12 RAM sockets, for at least 1.5TB of RAM; a 1,400W power supply; a quiet chassis capable of continuously dissipating the heat from a maxed out config; Afterburner support; 2x 10GbE ports; T2 security, etc. At $6k, it’s a much better value than the 2013 cylinder was at $4k.
3) The monitor stand is not just a chunk of aluminum. It looks like Apple put as much thought into the stand as they did the monitor and the Mac Pro itself. PR-wise, would Apple have been better off to price the monitor at $6k including the stand? Sure. But most of the target market doesn’t use tabletop stands and they would go unused, thrown on a shelf in some closet somewhere... what a waste. Would you have been happier with a $5,800 monitor and a $200 stand?
People have been complaining about Apple products being overpriced for 35+ years; nothing new, completely expected and as annoying as ever. There’s a big difference between high-priced and overpriced.
If you need a well-engineered, capable, expandable Xeon workstation, it’s priced competitively. If you don’t think it offers enough value for the money, of course don’t buy it.
I think the whole point is that while nobody is meant to buy the base Mac Pro, it’s there to serve as a template upon which buyers then layer on their own desired component upgrades depending on their individual needs.
Wrong. 'Chances are' is an assumption, as is 'negated by the iMac'. The iMac is NOT a replacement for a desktop computer. The form factor is all wrong and the solution you are suggesting would either be very messy or very slow, or both. You also forgot maintenance. How you exactly get dust can crap out of a sealed iMac, which will inevitably build up eventually making the machine unusable. With a desktop it's easy.
The entry level desktop Mac (G5, Mac Pro, etc) has always started at around $3k. Why doesn't the new one? What is the upgrade path for existing customers? Spend $6k rather than $3k for essentially the same level of functionality - a box to house all the components, that enable you to run Mac OS.
[doublepost=1560325454][/doublepost]
It was an example. A hypothetical situation.
Put it another way. Tell me the upgrade path for someone with a 5,1 Mac Pro with a budget of $3-4k, who doesn't want an all in one. The iMac is absolutely NOT an option for this user. What upgrade path have Apple provided for this customer? The 6,1 Mac Pro had no internal expansion so that was not a realistic option so they waited for the 7,1 but that is now too expensive. These users either have to accept a machine they don't want (iMac), pony up twice as much as they used to, build a Hackintosh or ditch the Mac and get a PC.
To really be able to upgrade this machine you need to be able to upgrade the motherboard! New generations of CPUs, memory and cards needs new CPU sockets, memory sots and PCI slots (e.g. PCI 4). Sadly this won’t happen......
They don’t release individual sales figures anymore so we’ll never know either way.
I don’t share your enthusiasm, which doesn’t mean I know how many they’ll be selling
It would be a whole lot easier if they could just settle for ONE coherent meaning of the "Pro" moniker.
It used to mean "models for those of us who want a little more than the entry level back-to-school Mac". Now it means any random thing that pops into their minds that morning.
iPad: 329
iPad Air: 499 (+52%)
iPad Pro: 799 (+60%) (or +143% compared to entry-level iPad)
OK, with you so far.
MacBook: 1299
MacBook Air: 1199 (-8%)
MacBook Pro: 1299 (+8%) (+/-0 compared to entry-level MacBook)
You're losing me fast...
iMac 27": 1799
iMac Pro: 4999 (+178%)
I think those men in white coats are looking for you...
Mac: Take the 799 mini or scram!
Mac Pro: ONE BILLION TRILLION DOLLARS
(Slowly backs out of the room)
It used to mean "models for those of us who want a little more than the entry level back-to-school Mac". Now it means any random thing that pops into their minds that morning.
iPad: 329
iPad Air: 499 (+52%)
iPad Pro: 799 (+60%) (or +143% compared to entry-level iPad)
OK, with you so far.
MacBook: 1299
MacBook Air: 1199 (-8%)
MacBook Pro: 1299 (+8%) (+/-0 compared to entry-level MacBook)
You're losing me fast...
iMac 27": 1799
iMac Pro: 4999 (+178%)
I think those men in white coats are looking for you...
Mac: Take the 799 mini or scram!
Mac Pro: ONE BILLION TRILLION DOLLARS
(Slowly backs out of the room)
So as I said, stuck between over priced thermal throttling and often last gen speeds and non upgradeability. I think the prosumer is let down entirely by the current product line. The new Mac Pro and screen is for professionals and elite ones at that.
The new one starts at $5,999 because that's what Apple determined the cost should be to amortize the R&D, tooling, packaging, support, marketing and profit to make it worth it to them to build.
The upgrade path for existing Mac Pro 4,1, 5,1 and 6,1 owners are the following:
- MacBook Pro
- Mac mini
- iMac
- iMac Pro
- Mac Pro 7,1
- Build a Windows tower themselves, if none of the above meets their needs.
There are alternatives within the Mac lineup that can satisfy the vast majority of users needs. If you have determined that none of them will work for you and you are not willing to pay the price for the next Mac Pro, that is your right. It does mean that you will need to find something suitable somewhere else.
We can debate back and forth for hours, days, months, even years, but it is what it is.
So no upgrade path for current owners then unless you want to pony up $5999. The profit at $5999 will be astronomical. Higher than any other vendor, and everyone knows this. Everyone knows this is a $3k computer been peddled as a $6k computer because it has a fancy case with an Apple logo on it.
Where have you attained that information? On Apple's website nowhere to be found is anything about a basic stand, there's even a "what's in the box" section. Don't just assume stuff you don't know anything about.
I THINK I am seeing the marketing strategy. In the first six months of sales, guess how many JUST base systems they will sell? As we know that the base system is about as "pro" as a rock, those sales are the initial ones to all those to whom the new machine is more of a status symbol than something for getting work done. What MAY look like initial success (ego sales) is NOT in the market the machine is clearly aimed at. The large businesses than can afford this may take a while to get orders going.
I think this machine is a BTO from the git go. The initial cost is not near as relevant in that case. It's about creating a working system and what is that going to cost. Impossible to really know that until we see the BTO price list. THEN we will know what it will take to "BTO" a working "high end pro" machine. There MAY be a segment of any possible market that says buy the initial, then upgrade it over when they have more financial resources. THESE folks DO need to see what those "upgrade" costs are going to be. Not to mention there are a few aspects where we do not know how locked down stuff is until we have real production machines out there... it's only speculation at this point, but I think there WILL be some howls going on.
I think this machine is a BTO from the git go. The initial cost is not near as relevant in that case. It's about creating a working system and what is that going to cost. Impossible to really know that until we see the BTO price list. THEN we will know what it will take to "BTO" a working "high end pro" machine. There MAY be a segment of any possible market that says buy the initial, then upgrade it over when they have more financial resources. THESE folks DO need to see what those "upgrade" costs are going to be. Not to mention there are a few aspects where we do not know how locked down stuff is until we have real production machines out there... it's only speculation at this point, but I think there WILL be some howls going on.
I did as close to the base configuration Mac Pro as I could using an HP Z4 G4 and the following:
Z4 G4 Workstation - $4,862.68
* Windows 10 Pro 64 for Workstations
* Intel® Xeon® W-2145 Processor (3.7 GHz, up to 4.5 GHz w/Turbo Boost, 8.25 MB cache, 8 core)
* Z4 G4 1000 W Chassis
* 32 GB (4x8 GB) DDR4-2666 ECC Memory
* Operating System Load to M.2 / 256 GB HP Z Turbo Drive Self-Encrypted (SED) TLC M.2 SSD
* AMD Radeon™ Pro WX 7100 (8 GB GDDR5, 4x DisplayPort) Graphics
* Intel® X550-T2 10GbE Dual Port NIC
* Premium - 2 x USB 3.1 Type C; 2 x USB 3.0 Type A
* HP SD Card Reader
* No included Optical Disc Drive
* USB Premium Wired Keyboard
* USB Premium Wired Mouse
* No Adapters Needed
* HP Z4 Standard CPU Cooling Solution / HP Z4 G4 Fan Front Card Guide / HP Z4 G4 Memory Cooling Solution / HP Z4 G4 Dust Filter and Bezel
* 3/3/3-year warranty / Single Unit Packaging / Z4 G4 1000 W Country Kit
The Apple Mac Pro is 30% more expensive, but has things this Z4 doesn't have (1400w PSU, Thunderbolt 3 ports, the T2 Chip, MPX expansion, the aluminum case, stainless steel handles, etc. If HP wants to make 8% profit on the Z4 G4, that's their business. Perhaps they make it up in their Inkjet cartridge sales. Apple is selling their workstation for $5,999 and are going to make a profit on every one of them. This is not new...Apple turns a profit on everything they sell. There are no loss leaders with the possible exception of the 6th Gen iPad and I suspect it makes a profit, just not as high as the other iPad models.
I already explained your upgrade path in my last message. Apple is not building another tower computer at a lower cost. They decide to build an 8-slot monster and priced it accordingly. Buy it or don't buy it. Buy the HP Z4 G4 instead or build a Cascade Lake Xeon W once they hit retail and let us know how much it costs you.
[doublepost=1560353342][/doublepost]
Like it has been referred to for decades, its called "Buy a new computer"...this is nothing new or unique to Apple. Go ask Dell what they upgrade path is for their workstations. I'm pretty sure I know the answer.
Intel may or may not use the LGA-3467 when they move to PCIe 4/5. Remember how they slightly changed the LGA-1151 socket for Coffee Lake/300-Series PCH to not be backwards compatible with Skylake and Kaby Lake CPUs, which meant that you had to buy a new motherboard with a 300-Series PCH, possibly new DRAM since Coffee Lake was DDR4-2666. I heard a lot of bellyaching, but I didn't see Intel reverse themselves on that decision.
If Intel moves to an LGA-4255 (making that number up) when it transitions to PCIe 4.0/5.0 and newer versions of their Xeon CPUs, Apple and every other PC OEM is going to offer a new version of their Workstation computer and I don't see any of them offering upgrades for previous owners. The only way you can protect yourself even minimally is to build it yourself. I have no idea why you think Apple needs to be different in this regard. The users who think Apple owes them something more than Dell, HP, Lenovo, et al. is staggering. They only thing they owe the users is a solid reliable computer at the time of purchase along with warranty and tech support according to their Terms and Conditions. That's it.
People seem to think they are doing Apple a favor instead of buying some Dell or HP crapbox...I have seen it for 30+ years and it isn't any more true now than it was 30+ years ago.
[doublepost=1560353645][/doublepost]
Any competent business owner or partners should take a long hard look at the new Mac Pro and evaluate whether it is going to help or hinder their workflow, whether the cost of the particular configuration they need to achieve their goal is viable and will pay back in gained revenue and find out what their peers are seeing who may have bit first. I am not the target market for the Mac Pro, but scrutinizing Apple's commitment to the Pro workspace is a valid concern. This is where Apple is going to need to prove themselves.
Yes, a poor example. An unrealistic hypothetical situation.
No upgrade paths? You just listed them. Paying more money for a new machine that you absolutely need is an upgrade path. So is building a Hackintosh or buying a Windows box.
You don’t like how Apple prices its products, then vote with your dollars and buy from a competitor. If enough people do the same thing, Apple WILL notice and adjust accordingly. Until then it’s just sour grapes.
Ditto. I've been using a 5,1 with 30" ACD for about 7 years, which is rock solid. I figure I'll use it another year or two then upgrade to the new MP. The new MP is indeed quite expensive, but over the time 6-8 years I expect to use it, it's a lot cheaper than other things I use less. I guess the kids will be eating oats and beans for a few years (-;
BS.
Take the base price and double it for a nicely specced machine. Name a single professional that requires that type of machine, and can not afford the cost either outright, or with payments.
One single professional. Of course you can't. It's not a consumer machine, and just because you are priced out does not mean professionals are in the same position.
...and I'm willing to bet you use Aperture LOL.
The vast majority (like 95%) of my 3D artist colleagues use sub-$5k windows machines, so you should reconsider shaming professionals. It comes off just as arrogant and misinformed as Apple.
[doublepost=1560399309][/doublepost]
More like you can buy the wheels for 6k, and the rest of the Ferrari is upgradable.
Last edited:
You have it in a nutshell. If you don't like the prices of their phones, removal of headphone jacks from both phones and tablets, the prices and reliability issues of their laptops, lack of useful ports necessitating dongles, lack of mid-teir options for headless Macs, and glued/soldered non-replaceable parts and components, then stop buying those Apple products. Apple can be non-responsive or slow to respond to these complaints, as it is evident that enough people buy the stuff anyway. That is largely due to the reputation Apple developed over several decades of producing quality hardware and software, along with A+ customer support. There appears to be a divergence of opinion as to whether that has been significantly eroded the last several years. Time will ultimately tell.
Last edited:
Exactly right. Market demand will determine whether a product and/or its pricing is a success or a failure. Seems to me that many of the people who are pissed at Apple for pricing a product out of their reach are just as pissed at the people who are willing to shell out the $ to buy it. Welcome to capitalism - Apple is under no obligation to manufacture a product and sell it to you at a price that YOU think is reasonable. Don’t like the price? Don’t buy it. Don’t voluntarily give Apple your money and then complain about them fleecing you.