Apple Says Touchscreen Macs 'Not a Particularly Useful or Appropriate Application of Multi-Touch'

[magicschoolbus]

Do you use proapps? Or use a bunch of hotkeys? I'm guessing that's a no.

I do, actually.

To me - what would make a concept like this work - is a keyboard in which each key on the keyboard is an OLED.

When you are in word processing, normal keyboard.

When you are in Pro-Tools, Photoshop, Premiere, Final Cut, etc.. the entire keyboard switches to hotkeys, keyboard shortcuts, etc. Not a strip at the top.

Like This:

Obviously executed better- but you get the idea.

 

[tubeexperience]

I thought there was a tangent where they discussed the technology they had to incorporate into the screen (NFC I assume) in order to make it contextually aware when placed on the screen? That was the use case I was thinking of when writing the post.

What functions does it serve when not on the screen? I honestly hadn't looked into it that far.

Nope. It uses Bluetooth.

You can use Surface Dial on the table, on the floor, etc.

 

[Mr Fusion]

Apple is not thinking "out of the box", which is disappointing because that also means they aren't innovating. iPad Pro is a joke - nothing iOS is pro at anything, especially if you can't use the full desktop version of the pro apps you are currently using. Major disconnect from Apple and a poor answer to languishing iPad sales.

Apple should have waited with iPad Pro and launched it as the display portion of a macPad Pro, like a Surface Book. Remove the screen and you have a tablet, re-attach the screen and you have a laptop. Apple could have equipped this product to run both iOS and macOS, leaving it up to the user to decide which mode they would rather be in.

Need to edit your photos using Photoshop on the train to work? No problem! Need to make some last-minute changes to that floor plan in AutoCAD? No problem! Make it work with the pencil and you have a great product. A 15" tablet or laptop to use as you see fit, as either a Mac or an iPad.

I have a feeling something like that would have sold like hotcakes, but it makes too much sense for Apple. Apple doesn't seem to be able to think itself out of the rut it has put itself into.

It sounds like your beef is less with Apple's laptop design decisions and more with how iOS on an iPad is crippled, walled-garden garbage. Can we all agree that if iPad ran a decent OS (basically something as powerful as MacOS but built for an iPad-like interface) it would be the solution to most people's issues here?

 

[BreadofWonder]

I agree, the Touch Bar gives all the contextually appropriate benefits of multitouch without having to place your hands in an un-ergonomic angle, and mark up the screen. It seems to make a lot of sense to me, however in addition to the touch bar, including a full multitouch monitor would be nice for those who insist on poking at the screen. And seriously, now that we have a giant trackpad why no support for the Pencil??

The Pencil/trackpad combo would be dream come true for me. It would totally eliminate my need for a Wacom Intuos for drawing and photo editing. I personally have no desire for a touch screen on a Mac as I really don't want to have to keep cleaning off fingerprints (although it seems I might be in the minority). The only issue for using a Pencil on the trackpad is Apple would have to add additional hardware that may raise the price. Creatives might be happy to pay the difference, but if the recent price hike is any indication, everybody else might feel differently.

 

[GadgetBen]

Glad to hear that a lot of people on here do not like the new MacBook Pro like me.

The ONLY way to get them to change is to let them know here: http://www.apple.com/feedback/

Get on to them with your comments like I have - lets make sure the next one is worth buying.

 

[niun]

No because the point I was trying to make is that operating a desktop OS with your hands makes for a poor experience.
If you look at the rest of the post that's what I'm focused on. It's a good idea ON PAPER, but when you actually try and make it you constantly have to wrestle with software that wasn't designed to be operated with your fingers.

I talk about the Companion because that's what I own, but if you take a Surface tablet you're gonna run into the exact same issues.

How so?
Nobody is talking about using your hands for everything. It's not being able to use a touch screen on a mac for some things!

 

[a.gomez]

I took Commercial Art back in the late 1980s and then did art school a few years later. Mechanical pencil ( lead holders ) were the business, and still are. I used the Ames lettering guide for copy and text. Even the markers I used on transparent paper or such for gradients were the norm at the time. I know some artists still do that by hand but lately it's been used digitally with Copic markers on Sketchbook Pro which I have and a godsend. Even the smell of markers at the Industral Design department brings back memories seeing conceptual designs of cars ( one reason why this school is one of the best in the country ).

Then when the iPad came out several years ago, the art school created a new program called the iPad Foundation where students were provided the devices and required to use them. Amazing. But of course, I'm sure by now they use Cintiqs in their computer lab after a major renovation that was finished last year. They did have the older Wacoms back in the 1990s which I remember well and I had one at home which died out. I had to get a new replacement and then an Intuos4 five years ago which still works to this day, along with my brand new iPad Pro ( an agency paid for it in full..lucky me ) so I can do some illustration and conceptual work on it.

As for mechanical drafting tables, they're classic. I have one drafting table which my parents bought me back in 88 which still stands here with me at home and a new one I got just for my iMac providing enough elbow room to use my Wacom. It got the job done.

Apple is way out of touch on that and I think Jony needs to go on his own and get out of the company. It's the 'head in the sand' thinking that's hurting the company and they need to stop making BS excuses and see what's really out there and not using their Cupertino home as a 'demographic gospel'.

Pops did car concept work for GM as a freelancer from his home studio. So I can relate on the smell of markers and industrial design- but for me it just reminds me of home (my mom hated it). Apple just reminds me of SONY in the 90s - just to hardheaded to admit they had it wrong and embracing the change. Instead, deciding on random illogical side steps.

My pops didn't need a Mac to do his job and my Canvas is proving that neither do I. Apple needs to get their act in order - The Surface Studio is not something they should ignore. I for one have no intention of doing so - I already put a request at work to have it evaluated.

 

[Haiku_Oezu]

How so?
Nobody is talking about using your hands for everything. It's not being able to use a touch screen on a mac for some things!

Sorry I actually addressed that bit later in an edit to my post. I will paste it here for convenience

"Unless you mean normal laptops that happen to have a touchscreen monitor? Because those make even less sense to me... operating a touch screen that is being held upright doesn't feel right unless it's just a limited kiosk experience
And if you make the screen fold all the way back so that it sits almost vertically then well, the point still stands that the second you're done with direct manipulation of visual data (aka pinching and zooming your picture) you WILL go back to the keyboard and trackpad to operate the UI, which kinda makes the touch screen kind of a gimmick rather than the main input device."

While I agree it sounds good on paper it feels like that sort of thing you use a couple times and then eventually give up because of how annoying it is to switch back and forth between input methods.
Some laptops like that do exist and they're about as popular as you'd expect. Personally I'm kind of intrigued by the Surface Book idea, the "transformer" tablet seems like an interesting proposition to me but I still can't find myself operating Windows with my fingers.

I understand the allure tho, some people don't care about the small idiosyncrasies and would rather have a "gimmicky" feature rather than not having the option at all.
I respect that. I don't personally want that but I respect that some people would go for it, but Apple clearly believe that if you ship a device with a touch screen you should be able to use that exclusively to operate it, not on a case by case basis.

 

[mozumder]

Does the Spectre keyboard fold back, or is it just a regular laptop with a touch screen? On my surface pro 3, when I fold back the keyboard (or remove it) it switches to tablet mode which has larger sized buttons for touch. With the keyboard attached and positioned normally, Windows switches off tablet mode and everything switches to normal size. That was the big "wow" moment for me. Some of the adobe apps support that as well. When you run Photoshop with the keyboard set normally it behaves like normal Photoshop. When you switch to tablet mode it switches to a "touch ui" which optimizes itself for touch. All of this happens automatically (though you can do it manually as well).

Mine is the one that folds back for tablet mode, but I never notice any change to button sizes when folded back. Is it a separate setting?

 

[peter2]

The last thing you want to do is burden it with an input direction that now has a whole bunch of challenges specific to something like touch.

Article Link: Apple Says Touchscreen Macs 'Not a Particularly Useful or Appropriate Application of Multi-Touch'

What a bullsh*t. No one is suggesting they turn laptops into tablets. The only thing I would want is to be able to sign / comment a pdf with a pen/pencil, or use a pen/pencil to write notes (e.g. at a lecture) in the existing MS One Note application.

Should I buy and carry around two devices only because of the lack of this, nowadays trivial, functionality? Speaking of light and thin powerful machines... how light and thin is MBPro + iPad PRO compared to a single MS Surface?

The solution is obvious. I will just by a surface the next time when I upgrade my notebook (now MBPro).

 

[niun]

Sorry I actually addressed that bit later in an edit to my post. I will paste it here for convenience

Ahhh, sorry...

I'd agree that Windows is not totally touch friendly. I don't think it's meant to be - hence the desktop, tablet mode.
However, using software like Photoshop or Clip Paint - not to mention the app based stuff, I'm not bothered about windows.

Just me the content and my pen.

 

[Gudi]

And in 3-4 Years the touch screen is the best thing they ever inventend... sure sure Apple...

In 4 years time Apple will look back 10 years and reflect on the worlds first iPad with Multitouch.

January 27, 2010

​

Let's not get carried away with how innovative Microsoft supposedly is. They failed to gain market share with their phoneOS and ultimately had no chance to convince developers with an insulated new ARM-based tabletOS. So their last chance was to bring touchscreen to PCs and destroy Windows (7) in the process. Customers outright rejected Windows 8, 8.1 and 10 and they almost stopped buying new PCs, because they knew it would destroy their workflow.

​

The Touch Bar is the exact opposite, it's biggest inconvenience is that [esc] becomes a soft button. Otherwise the new MacBook Pro is a normal laptop that holds up the computing paradigm introduced with the Macintosh in 1984.

 

[ChrisMoBro]

It blows my mind that Ive et al don't believe a touchscreen would be useful. Yes I know it would damage iPad sales but the ability to draw directly on a MacBook Pro's screen would be huge in my industry (motion graphics/animation). From storyboarding all the way to character design, it would mean I wouldn't have to get my Cintiq out of the draw or use my Intuos Pro. I could use an iPad but I want to use proper software, not mobile apps. This is one of many different things Cook has done that shows Apple has very little interest in the professional market, which has resulted in a huge shift towards PCs over the last few years in my industry.

 

[Kr15]

I'm afraid that Apple will be next Blackberry - living in their little bubble... I've been Apple "fan boy" for more than 15years now and so far AppleTV - sold on eBay, Apple Watch - sold on eBay, iPhone - after boring 7 release quite seriously considering Pixel phone and Mac - that's quite difficult though hence I'm IT bloke it pure Mac environment... But surely I'm sticking with my 2015 MBP for now.

 

[baryon]

IF, a big if, Apple hadn't released the iPad line.. Do you think graphic studio artists would all be sitting in front of a glorious reclining 5k iMac Studio right now using the Apple pencil to do, 'Magical' things?

I doubt that the release of the iPad prevented the iMac from adopting a stylus. If anything, the success (is it successful? I don't know) of the Apple Pencil on the iPad could maybe convince Apple to extend it to other products, just like the Retina display and Touch ID started on the iPhone, then eventually made its way into Macs.

I'm sure a 5k iMac "Studio" similar to Microsoft's new thing would be pretty cool for artists. Those who currently use the Wacom Cintiq would definitely benefit from it, as the Cintiq has quite a disappointing display and parallax problems, it's bulky, made of plastic, requires a ton of cables, it's expensive, and unlikely to be used as a main display. At least the Cintiqs I've tried out a few years ago seemed really disappointing, I wouldn't want to use one.

 

[NT1440]

It blows my mind that Ive et al don't believe a touchscreen would be useful. Yes I know it would damage iPad sales but the ability to draw directly on a MacBook Pro's screen would be huge in my industry (motion graphics/animation). From storyboarding all the way to character design, it would mean I wouldn't have to get my Cintiq out of the draw or use my Intuos Pro. I could use an iPad but I want to use proper software, not mobile apps. This is one of many different things Cook has done that shows Apple has very little interest in the professional market, which has resulted in a huge shift towards PCs over the last few years in my industry.

You're asking for a different form factor, whether you admit it or not. Sticking a touchscreen on a clamshell notebook is a gimmick, nothing more.

I don't dispute a touchscreen would be useful in your profession, but I can tell you that you won't be drawing for long on a clamshell Macbook Pro with a touchscreen.

 

[Haiku_Oezu]

Ahhh, sorry...

I'd agree that Windows is not totally touch friendly. I don't think it's meant to be - hence the desktop, tablet mode.
However, using software like Photoshop or Clip Paint - not to mention the app based stuff, I'm not bothered about windows.

Just me the content and my pen.

Oh yeah, with a stylus then it's totally viable! It's not elegant and it's worthless for typing but it's a good compromise.

Microsoft is clearly doing something to make regular old Windows viable to touch screen usage with Tablet Mode but sadly with all the legacy software running and the developers simply refusing to adopt the new design patterns it's hard for them to offer a consistent experience and it's kind of a shame.
Clip Paint is a perfect example, there's no difference between running it in normal and tablet mode (altho curiously it does have a proprietary "Touch Mode" you can enable, I don't bother with it since I use the stylus anyway when I'm using it but it's there).

I just don't think Apple is ever gonna target artists directly (which sucks, the Apple Pencil can only be so useful on a mobile OS)

 

[Phil A.]

Huh, I'm actually finding that the Surface Book and Macbook Pro trackpads are not noticeably different.
Apple has the edge but MS are getting very good.

And touch is not a trackpad replacement. It's the ability to work and interact in a different way.

Hell, when I want to kick back and watch movies, I just reverse the screen on the Surface book and I don't have any keys, trackpad, laptop base in the way at all. Just me and the screen.

edit, this is based on the current trackpad.. Not the HUGE one.

The Surface Book trackpad is definitely an improvement but it still has an annoying delay occasionally when you start using it (or at least mine does!). Agree about the reversing it - I do that when I use mine on my desk with a big screen and external keyboard / mouse: It's actually a great way of using the SB on a desk

 

[erinsarah]

"Touchscreen Macs 'Not a Particularly Useful or Appropriate Application of Multi-Touch' "

Yeah, and a Mazda Miata or a GMC Yukon are not PARTICULARLY useful or appropriate method of transportation for someone to drive to and from work, yet lots of people love them and use the heck out of them, so there you go. My point being that J.Ive seems to be telling us what is or isn't good for the user. We don't need a Miata or a Yukon...we need an Accord. When Jobs was around, we were introduced to things we didn't KNOW we NEEDED. However the (moderate) success of the MS Surface is showing that there IS a need for a laptop with a touch screen, and that shiny new MS Surface Studio shows there are concepts out there that demonstrate what that need is.

For me, I wouldn't mind a laptop with a touch screen, especially if it folded itself into an iPad-like format. I have a friend who has a Lenovo laptop with a touchscreen and, as a lawyer, he finds it incredibly useful for reviewing documentation.

As for the touchbar, I need to be proven that there's a need, because I'm not getting it.

I also wholeheartedly agree that the new trackpad should be capable of using the pencil. All those commercials showing designers drawing on a MS Surface saying, "you can't do that on a Mac" are right.

 

[Jaekae]

Yes.. Buuuut how does that function when you're in an app and they've got specific things mapped to the touch bar.
Would photoshop override that? would I have to press a further key to access the shortcuts?

All these questions..

I think the developers just design their function buttons do, then the user can drag those buttons from a list down to touchbar to choose which ones to use, so its totally user customizable like they showed on keynote

 

[NT1440]

I love it, everyone asking for a touchscreen also states they want it to be folded down into a tablet.

Which explicitly means you aren't upset that the new MBP's don't have a touchscreen, you're upset that Apple doesn't produce a convertible Tablet/laptop.

Details matter when describing a "problem".

 

[niun]

Oh yeah, with a stylus then it's totally viable! It's not elegant and it's worthless for typing but it's a good compromise.

Microsoft is clearly doing something to make regular old Windows viable to touch screen usage with Tablet Mode but sadly with all the legacy software running and the developers simply refusing to adopt the new design patterns it's hard for them to offer a consistent experience and it's kind of a shame.
Clip Paint is a perfect example, there's no difference between running it in normal and tablet mode (altho curiously it does have a proprietary "Touch Mode" you can enable, I don't bother with it since I use the stylus anyway when I'm using it but it's there).

I just don't think Apple is ever gonna target artists directly (which sucks, the Apple Pencil can only be so useful on a mobile OS)

More touch based products, more software becomes optimised for touch..
Windows 10 is still very new and is only going to get better.

Well, fingers crossed for both of the above.

 

[sleepydinosaur]

I'd like to see these prototypes.

The touch bar seems like it's a bit of a gimmick. I can't see it increasing workflows.

See and I don't think its a gimmick, but I do think its a half-step. .

 

[spiritlevel]

Then you've never used a Wacom. I do this every day on my iMac.

There's a reason why Wacom tablets have been replaced by Cintiqs.

What you want is a tablet MacOS, yes?

When you people say you want to draw on the screen lets get one thing straight, you're asking for an entirely different device from Apple than a touchscreen Macbook. You're looking for a 2 in 1, or a convertible, neither of which Apple currently offers.

So again, just to clear up, you're NOT looking for a touchscreen MacBook (unless you want to draw vertically, which god help your writs at that point).

Correct. What I want is essentially an iMac Studio and a Surface MacBook Pro

 

[niun]

I think the developers just design their function buttons do, then the user can drag those buttons from a list down to touchbar to choose which ones to use, so its totally user customizable like they showed on keynote

Holy ####
That menu for Photoshop is going to be HUUUUUUUUUGE!