Apple to Begin Taking Orders for New Mac Pro on August 9th

[617arg]

If you want a serious answer, then I don't agree with you - and I don't think RAID is a particularly cost effective (or good) solution for home use. To do RAID properly you should have at least two identical boxes (since you're introducing an extra point of failure in the box/controller itself) and then have some backup strategy. I think backups are also more difficult to organise if you have a large amount of contiguous disk space compared with separate drives, which can be quickly duped onto another of the same size.

Additionally, in my experience RAID boxes for less than £500 generally have cheezy PSUs, underpowered CPU and nasty small fans. £1000 for two of these even before you start adding disks or thinking about backup is money poorly spent. RAID is also at its best when used as a solution to maximise uptime - not a data integrity solution (where I don't believe it's cost effective in a home context).

Which RAID boxes do you own? How many of them?

Housing disks in a Mac Pro means you have them in an excellent PSU and temperature controlled environment which runs quiet, and has very fast access. I run multiple 2 and 2.5TB disks JBOD - and use a 2 bay WeibeTech caddyless hot-swap enclosure to enable a rotating backup strategy onto same-sized disks (including offsite). I'd rather spend my money on more and better backups than some slow RAID enclosures (seriously, are you getting more than 30MB/s?).

I also don't have a team on my network. Just me.

Oh yes - and running Unix servers on the Pro using VMWare sure beats the hassle of running PCs across the network. Snapshots and backing up are a cinch too - since the whole environment lives in a single file.

Can you set up a backup solution for me?!

Seriously, I own a Qnap also. 2 sets of mirroring drives in it and I've never been as nervous as I was when one of them failed. It keeps me up at night when I hear the slightest sound coming out of the enclosure........

It's also quite slow and often fails when I try to move large files over to it.......just not as stable as I would have liked.

As far as price....well, that is what I felt it had going for it. Price and ease of use (in my mind at least). If I had the computer skills to properly set up a RAID using my Mac Pro I'd probably do that for my main storage with the Qnap used as a secondary backup that can be used while the Mac Pro is off.

 

[firestarter]

Can you set up a backup solution for me?!

Of course!

Seriously, I own a Qnap also. 2 sets of mirroring drives in it and I've never been as nervous as I was when one of them failed. It keeps me up at night when I hear the slightest sound coming out of the enclosure........

You should really have at least 3 copies of your important data, preferably with one set in a different location.

These mirrored disks aren't 'main disk + a backup' - it isn't a backup when an accidental file deletion means you automatically delete the 'backup' too!

I'm sure the Qnap is a decent enough product, but folks get suckered into thinking one box covers all their backup needs, when that's absolutely not true.

Disks are big and cheap these days. Get a couple of 2 TB external drives, and use them as rotating backups for your data. If you actually have a proper backup, you won't be loosing sleep!

 

[KnightWRX]

Wow, you are an unpleasant and cynical piece of work aren't you?

I guess your employer must have you sat all day in the server room so you don't frighten the clients!

Classy!

Boxes do fail - and that has to be factored into your cost benefit analysis. Multiple drive failure in RAID is a well known phenomena - generally your drives will never be pushed as hard as that critical moment when they're engaged in a rebuild. Mirroring doesn't protect you from corruption, user errors or any other software incidents.

Has yet to happen to me (multiple drive failures on rebuild). And again, RAID-6 lessens this, with double parity, you can have 2 failed drives in an array and still be online.

Boxes that fail, again, as long as the drives are intact, that is an easy fix. Replace the box. The drives are by far the most fragile part and the most deadly to your data.

I've seen them fail on Infrant Ready NAS boxes.

It's a good thing replacement takes a whole 2 seconds.

When offsite is 10 minutes away, and the backup is a 'SuperDuper' replication of the disk, then it's really not a problem just to slot the replacement into the computer and get going.

I'd rather just see a yellow light and swap in a new disk while my data continues to be available.

Over 8TB+ all those mirrored drives start getting expensive. If your data isn't changing often, it's nicer to have that second disk offline, to avoid risks of software corruption, accidental deletion etc.

I said backups were important. RAID is for availability, it's not a backup solution. Hot swap drives make taking a 3rd disk offline much easier. Again, break mirror, take drive out, offsite it, put in fresh drive, rebuild mirror. Best of both worlds for a home setup. I'd never go without tape in the enterprise though.

 

[HyperZboy]

Fine print...

Sadly, most Mac programs and Mac OS X itself will probably not take advantage of the additional cores most likely.

They'll just sit there collecting dust.

There will be plenty of PCI Express slots also collecting dust with only 2 expensive graphics card options at most.

My PowerMac G5 is a 64 bit machine. Remember that 64 bit Mac OS X version?

If Apple released a mid-range Mac mini-tower, maybe some of this would be excusable, but these machines most likely will not be aggressively priced and will be priced out of the average Mac buyer's price range compared to similarly equipped Windows PCs.

Thank You Apple. NOT!

(Now, we return you to our previously scheduled program,
IOS 5 development.)

PS: Can someone carbon date that case design please.

 

[ps45]

meanwhile...

Meanwhile in the UK, 27" displays have slipped back to September availability... and the US too by the looks of it. Not helpful if you're planning to upgrade from an iMac or get Applecare cover for the pair...

 

[mattwolfmatt]

How about a case redesign already? How long are we going on with this current one?

People who buy MP's don't care about form. They don't spend 5Gs for a pretty picture, they pay for what's under the hood.

Note this computer doesn't come with a monitor. It's made to be stuck under a desk.

 

[HyperZboy]

People who buy MBP's don't care about form. They don't spend 5Gs for a pretty picture, they pay for what's under the hood.

Note this computer doesn't come with a monitor. It's made to be stuck under a desk.

Having tons of pro Mac machines, I'd say I disagree with that statement.

I'll admit I have my Windows PCs hidden under a desk for certain, but not my pro Macs.

At this point, it's ONLY STEVE JOBS who doesn't care about the Mac Pro case design and deliberately too.

 

[NikeTalk]

Look at your Mac, now look at me, now back at your Mac, the Mac is now diamonds..

 

[JeffDM]

I'll admit I have my Windows PCs hidden under a desk for certain, but not my pro Macs.

Where do you put your pro Macs? On the desk is a waste of space, especially if you have space under the desk. Beside the desk is often something to trip over.

There will be plenty of PCI Express slots also collecting dust with only 2 expensive graphics card options at most.

You do know that there are non graphics cards that can go into those slots, right?

 

[matryska]

If you want a serious answer, then I don't agree with you - and I don't think RAID is a particularly cost effective (or good) solution for home use.

I've been giving this topic some thought and I think your justification of this is pretty good. Thanks for the thoughts.

 

[mBox]

Meanwhile in the UK, 27" displays have slipped back to September availability... and the US too by the looks of it. Not helpful if you're planning to upgrade from an iMac or get Applecare cover for the pair...

My understanding is that you can wait till last minute (year end from date of purchase) to get Apple Care. Im even told by support that as long as its an Apple product, the Apple Care covers it.
I had to do this with an Mac Pro Apple Care to take care of a problem with MBP.

 

[PandaOnslaught]

if it is anywhere near the price of the last Mac Pro's it would be a total waste of money.

 

[HyperZboy]

Where do you put your pro Macs? On the desk is a waste of space, especially if you have space under the desk. Beside the desk is often something to trip over.



You do know that there are non graphics cards that can go into those slots, right?

They're not on a desk, but I do have them fire-wired to each other and slapped next to each other in a prominent fashion on the floor. I like some leg room under the desk, but they're not hidden, maybe I'm weird.

As for other uses for the PCI Express slots, the Mac Pros have practically everything standard. Except for additional non-existent graphics cards since Steve Jobs restricts that, what else is left to install?

Give me some ideas. I can't think of too many things honestly off the top of my head that I'd add to any of the Macs.

 

[Xian Zhu Xuande]

It's not the number of cores, it's what you do with them. I can't wait to get one of these babies. 12-cores plus Microsoft releasing 64-bit MS-word for Mac EVENTUALLY = 3-page essay writing bliss.

EDIT: while running iTunes

Someone's setting their standards pretty low.

People who buy MBP's don't care about form. They don't spend 5Gs for a pretty picture, they pay for what's under the hood.

Note this computer doesn't come with a monitor. It's made to be stuck under a desk.

Well, I disagree. Not only do I care, but the people I know who use MPs care as well—to an extent. What matters most is, of course, how it is designed inside, but it is also nice to have a machine which looks good, is durable, and well made. I just happen to like the current Mac Pro design very much. It would be nice if it were a little smaller, but I'm not going to fuss much over that either. The thing is quite well packed, and all that extra space offers a lot of expandability.

 

[HyperZboy]

if it is anywhere near the price of the last Mac Pro's it would be a total waste of money.

BINGO! We have a winner!

(bells ring, balloons fall)​

You nailed it.

But Steve Jobs is totally opposed to 2 things...

a mid-range Mac mini-tower that is smaller than a Mac Pro, yet still expandable and less expensive.

he hates television, hence the Apple TV's complete failure (he doesn't get it & keeps referring to the Apple TV as a "hobby" while other companies are taking the lead. LOL).

Steve Jobs is brilliant at the ideas he comes up with and is interested in, yet stubborn about the things he doesn't like that consumers might like. At least that's his track record.

 

[JeffDM]

They're not on a desk, but I do have them fire-wired to each other and slapped next to each other in a prominent fashion on the floor. I like some leg room under the desk, but they're not hidden, maybe I'm weird.

As for other uses for the PCI Express slots, the Mac Pros have practically everything standard. Except for additional non-existent graphics cards since Steve Jobs restricts that, what else is left to install?

Give me some ideas. I can't think of too many things honestly off the top of my head that I'd add to any of the Macs.

Raid controllers, eSATA, SDI, HDMI capture, extra USB ports? I know you can say just get a hub, but I've usually found internal cards to be more reliable. You can add extra GFX cards for more screens too.

 

[HyperZboy]

Raid controllers, eSATA, SDI, HDMI capture, extra USB ports? I know you can say just get a hub, but I've usually found internal cards to be more reliable. You can add extra GFX cards for more screens too.

And how many graphics cards are available for Mac Pros? 1 or 2? LOL

Very limited & extremely expensive for a supposedly expandable machine and only available from Apple or occasionally ATI.

The other expansion options are valid ones, but once again, limited amount of Mac drivers. Apple appears to discourage expansion.

Go into a BEST BUY and see what PCI express cards will work in your Mac Pro, then get back to me.

I rest my case.

 

[ModestForumName]

So with these amazing 12-core processors, fabulous corresponding price tag AND that engadget article about precious metals is it safe to say that this is a sufficient alternative to an engagement ring???

 

[Umbongo]

So with these amazing 12-core processors, fabulous corresponding price tag AND that engadget article about precious metals is it safe to say that this is a sufficient alternative to an engagement ring???

Yes.

 

[Vylen]

So with these amazing 12-core processors, fabulous corresponding price tag AND that engadget article about precious metals is it safe to say that this is a sufficient alternative to an engagement ring???

Just get the proposal laser etched onto the side or something.

 

[milo]

SO is the mac pro running on mac osx in 64 bit ? or do you need to manually set the 64 bit kernel ??
i want to know if it makes any sense to buy more than 4 gb of ram for my music production!=?

Those two questions are completely unrelated. I suspect they will still default to 32 bit kernel for driver compatibility. But even in the 32 bit kernel it has already made sense for months to buy more than 4 gigs of ram for music work. Logic has been 64 bit for months and many of the more ram hungry plugins now have external memory servers so they can use more than 4 gigs of ram even in a 32 bit host

someone is using an actuall mac pro with music production software like cubase 5 and can share experience on performance??

I don't use Cubase but I believe it isn't 64 bit yet. Still, the plugins that use external memory can use far more than 4 gigs of ram, for example stuff like Kontakt and the ones from Spectrasonics.

You're gonna get the 12 core to do audio?

Absolutely. The eight cores are good, but newer libraries are getting bigger and more CPU intensive all the time.

Maxing a 12 core would be pretty easy if you're streaming from lots of sample libraries. EWQL's Hollywood Strings comes to mind.

That being said, I have heard that logic still has trouble fully supporting 8 core machines, so who knows what that means for a 12 core Mac Pro.

Completely true. Logic maxes out at eight cores (including HT cores) so it uses eight cores on a quad (with HT) but on an octo, still only eight for only a slight performance boost and half the cores sitting there unused. My guess is that on 12 core it will still only use eight cores max until they update the app. Similar problem with the i7 laptops, it doesn't use the HT on those either. Hopefully they'll finally get around to fixing that.

Thanks for the advice. I've been leaning more towards the 3.33GHz 6 core. The only thing I'm afraid of is running out of RAM since I will only be able to go up to 16GB, since Logic is more concerned with RAM than processing power at this point. I just want this computer to last me for a good amount of time, but I'm sure I'll be more than find with the 6.

The six is hard to say since nobody has any idea about cost. If it's anywhere close to the cost of the eight, I'd go eight since you get double the ram slots.

I wouldn't think that simple sample mixing would be a CPU-bound bottleneck, unless you combine a lot of effects with the samples. Short of lots of computed effects applied to the samples, I would think your bottleneck might still be bus throughput. Of course, I would suggest you refer to actual testing based on something that is similar to your actual work.

The newer libraries are getting more CPU intensive, and the drive bottleneck is getting lessened as people start moving to SSD for sample streaming. Pure sample streaming isn't super CPU heavy but newer libraries include more processing features like time stretch and sample morphing. Look at an instrument like Samplemodeling's The Trumpet and it's extremely CPU hungry.

 

[peskaa]

I hope the 5870 is available as an upgrade kit then too!

 

[JeffDM]

And how many graphics cards are available for Mac Pros? 1 or 2? LOL

Buy another one of the same kind if you want more screeens.

Go into a BEST BUY and see what PCI express cards will work in your Mac Pro, then get back to me.

I've not seen a Mac Pro at a Best Buy, so expecting them to have parts for a machine they don't sell is pretty silly. They don't sell Firewire 800 drives there either, last I checked. Best Buy usually isn't a good place to buy things anyway. For Mac-specific drive controller or IO cards, I'd just web order them from OWC and be done with it. They list a couple dozen drive adapter cards.

 

[KingYaba]

12 cores? Power consumption must be a nightmare.

 

[Butts M Biggilo]

Look at your Mac, now look at me, now back at your Mac, the Mac is now diamonds..

lol.. love those commercials!