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Apple to Start Reopening U.S. Stores Next Week

Bolanders said:
Are 30-50 million ruined financial lives worth it? Why don't you believe we should shut it down every winter when the flu kills from 40,000-70,000 people in the US. Worldwide the flu kills from 300,000 to 650,000 per year. Why not shut the economy down every year?

I'll wait for your answer.

Because what you wrote is that 250,000 equals shutting down the economy for the greater good (in your eyes at least).
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It’s 250,000 dead as of now, in about 2 months, (that number will go way higher, as the pandemic is nowhere near over) WITH global social distancing the likes of which none of us have ever seen before.

Your argument is like saying that seatbelts keep traffic fatalities to a relatively low level, so let’s all stop wearing seatbelts.
 
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Bolanders said:
Because what you wrote is that 250,000 equals shutting down the economy for the greater good (in your eyes at least).
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Ah we’re assuming again. Let’s guess how many would have died then without the shutdown.
 
NickName99 said:
That’s a way more nuanced statement than the original one, which was that all of those other deaths were misreported. If you died of a heart attack with no covid19 symptoms that’s one thing, but what if you died of a heart attack while on a ventilator with covid19? That’s a whole other can of worms right there.

What’s the point of all these attempts to downplay it as some kind of hoax? It resembles sticking one’s head in the sand and hoping the bad thing will go away. It doesn’t seem particularly brave or helpful.
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I highly doubt that he is downplaying it calling it a hoax, he's on the frontlines.
 
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People saying the death rate is much higher than the flu don't seem to understand that millions of people have had this that have never been tested, most of those never have symptoms. The main problem with this is the hospitalization rate which overwhelms the system which in turn causes more deaths. So yes the lock down is need for a time but you can't keep everyone locked down for months or a year. Either the healthcare system is improved or many more people will die
 
iOS Geek said:
Now THAT...I would absolutely agree with. I'd almost guarantee that this is happening. That being a very likely situation...of course brings an entirely new problem to light.
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It really has me thinking. I fall into one of the categories of "high risk" individuals. I've been self-isolating for eight weeks now, I think. So in a couple of weeks I have my regular appointment with my specialist. We'll be doing it virtually, so far so good...but there is a lab test I get every time, to get an important number to discuss. Now I've got to go somewhere to have this done. It certainly does make me worry. But if I don't continue to treat my existing issues effectively, it's like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
 
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az431 said:
I agree. I'm incensed that the leaders of over 200 countries, 50 US states, thousands of world, federal, and state agencies, and tens of thousands of doctors and scientists have conspired together to create this hoax.
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the same organizations that’s said it couldn’t be transferred via human to human? Or the ones that said 2 million people would die?
 
iOS Geek said:
I'm not downplaying it or calling it a hoax. I've treated COVID patients. I know full well how real and NOT made up this is. But there is still some dishonesty going around in the counts. People might be less inclined to doubt the severity of what we're facing... if there was more honesty and less manipulation about it. Using reopening as an example. There is a huge amount of people in my state that are using today's announcement of almost 3000 new cases as a reason not to reopen. Because our cases are still increasing. That part...is true. We have an increasing number of cases. However, these results came from a testing sample that is the largest daily testing period we've done. Those ~3000 cases...represent 14% of the tests for that time period. Which is among our LOWEST growth percentages, if not THE lowest growth rate we've seen. But the media isn't giving the percentages. They are using the raw numbers as a reason to say we shouldn't reopen. And they also have people convinced that these increases are happening because we are reopening. We haven't even begun reopening yet. These cases aren't a result of reopening and allowing people to go to an Apple Store, for instance (my state isn't on the list for reopening an Apple Store, but I'm just using it as an example). And they aren't a result of loosened restrictions either, because the loosening...literally just started.
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Oh man, let me just say I totally respect that you’re a health care professional. My wife works for the VA, I’m nervous for when she goes off maternity leave next month.

What’s your take, do you think it’s time to start reopening? Or should we hold out until we get it more under control and can do better testing? Or what? I feel like there’s not a super great plan being carried out in the USA right now.
 
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yaxomoxay said:
I highly doubt that he is downplaying it calling it a hoax, he's on the frontlines.
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I'll add that while I think the death totals are slightly manipulated...I also KNOW that the confirmed case count is inaccurate. NOT due to manipulation of data, but instead for a reason that I'm sure everyone is aware of: The asymptomatic people. An infected person who is asymptomatic...more than likely isn't going to go get tested. Because they don't feel sick, ergo no reason (in their mind) to get tested. It is very difficult to know exactly how severe of a situation we are dealing with when confirmed case numbers are certainly underreported (again, not intentionally) and death counts that ARE being manipulated in some instances.

I don't believe that the manipulated death data is significant enough to change the numbers by a huge amount. But I do believe that manipulated data is still a small part of it. Would it change much if it was taken out of the total? Probably not. But is it there? Definitely.
 
Ds6778 said:
the same organizations that’s said it couldn’t be transferred via human to human? Or the ones that said 2 million people would die?
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Estimates that showed 2M+ deaths were based on the assumption of unchecked spread (no social distancing measures) and may well have been correct. Fortunately, we did implement pretty severe interventions that took us off that path.
 
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iOS Geek said:
I'll add that while I think the death totals are slightly manipulated...I also KNOW that the confirmed case count is inaccurate. NOT due to manipulation of data, but instead for a reason that I'm sure everyone is aware of: The asymptomatic people. An infected person who is asymptomatic...more than likely isn't going to go get tested. Because they don't feel sick, ergo no reason (in their mind) to get tested. It is very difficult to know exactly how severe of a situation we are dealing with when confirmed case numbers are certainly underreported (again, not intentionally) and death counts that ARE being manipulated in some instances.

I don't believe that the manipulated death data is significant enough to change the numbers by a huge amount. But I do believe that manipulated data is still a small part of it. Would it change much if it was taken out of the total? Probably not. But is it there? Definitely.
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the most astounding and alarming thing of this whole thing is the total lack of standards for the body count. Each nation, state/region doing different things.
 
NickName99 said:
Oh man, let me just say I totally respect that you’re a health care professional. My wife works for the VA, I’m nervous for when she goes off maternity leave next month.

What’s your take, do you think it’s time to start reopening? Or should we hold out until we get it more under control and can do better testing? Or what? I feel like there’s not a super great plan being carried out in the USA right now.
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I will start by saying that I am absolute HAPPY that this is not my call to make. I don't really think there's a good option either way and I would hate to be the one to make the call. Personally, I would say wait maybe a little bit longer. Rollout more testing so we can get more accurate numbers in both the actual infection count itself...and also get better data from antibody testing (this one is tough because there are issues and questions about accuracy. You could get a positive result from an antibody test, but for all you know it was from a different coronavirus and not as a result of a COVID-19 infection, and of course there isn't enough known yet about whether or not it will actually prevent you from being infected again). I would say those two data points would be almost as important as capacity of a facility to handle a spike in cases. Better data on both of those would be HUGE in guiding where we go from here. What we can reopen, who would be safer going back to work.

I have a feeling that the economy will force us to reopen before the situation itself improves enough to make it safe to do so. My state for example...can't afford to stay shut down much longer. And our governor knows this. But we're also one of the hardest hit states. I think it will come down to having no choice but to find a middle ground to balance the impacts from both the virus and the economy. And like I said...I am so glad that's not my call to make. Because I wouldn't want to be the one to do it. Neither option is a "win".

Also adding...despite being a hard hit state...we seem to have what I would consider control of the situation. So much so that the state was/is dismantling it's temporary setups for COVID (I haven't heard whether or not that process has actually been completed or not yet, but I do know they started). I work in the metro area, so we saw a lot. I volunteered to go to the COVID unit at my hospital back in March, and a few weeks ago, the situation improved enough and we had enough control that I was no longer needed in that unit. So I started a two week quarantine (which as of today is now complete) and I will be returning to my usual department and on my normal work schedule beginning Monday. I would consider this situation a requirement to begin to reopen. And I would consider that "requirement met". But again would still like to see "requirement met" for more testing for both COVID itself as well as antibody testing. If we can improve that, I think it would be acceptable to move forward on reopening.
 
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QCassidy352 said:
Estimates that showed 2M+ deaths were based on the assumption of unchecked spread (no social distancing measures) and may well have been correct. Fortunately, we did implement pretty severe interventions that took us off that path.
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Nope. Social distancing was taken into account. Read the initial reports.
 
yaxomoxay said:
the most astounding and alarming thing of this whole thing is the total lack of standards for the body count. Each nation, state/region doing different things.
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Yep. This is the "hindsight is always 20/20" talking...That is something that should have been worked out in the early days. But we didn't do that and we can't change it. It would be great if the nations could work something out going forward. That would also be a potential game changer.
 
So should this be a either/or argument? You can freely choose to self isolate for the next three years of you want right?

So if a business or an individual wants to go out work etc they know the risk. If they are high risk stay home. Simple.
 
kyleh22 said:
Anyone who dies who has covid like symptoms can be included in the death count...Weakness is a symptom of covid. IDK anyone who dies without weakness. Hospitals get extra money for listing covid as cause of intake...they have a financial incentive to pump the numbers. I'm not sayings it's not a real thing to be concerned about, I'm just saying the numbers presented here are likely inflated.
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They most certainly do not. Hospitals are losing money due to the fact they cannot perform any elective surgeries. Wake the heck up.
 
As long as they do so safely I don’t see an issue.

Life has to and will go back to normal.

And no, I don’t mean the fairy tale “new normal” that the political leaders get excited over when they think about how they can limit and restrict us indefinitely.

COVID is a very serious matter, but like any problem in the world it must come to an end and people have to get back to work. Money and bills aren’t going away anytime soon. To argue that finances are irrelevant during a pandemic is reckless. You have to balance health and finances or there won’t be anything left after the matter is over.
 
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albebaubles said:
They most certainly do not. Hospitals are losing money due to the fact they cannot perform any elective surgeries. Wake the heck up.
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Well I’ve got news for you:
www.factcheck.org

Hospital Payments and the COVID-19 Death Count - FactCheck.org

Q: Are hospitals inflating the number of COVID-19 cases and deaths so they can be paid more? A: Recent legislation pays hospitals higher Medicare rates for COVID-19 patients and treatment, but there is no evidence of fraudulent reporting. FULL QUESTION Are hospitals getting 13,000 per patient if...
www.factcheck.org www.factcheck.org

Medicare is paying more per patient based on the level of treatment they receive. Gotta be on a ventilator? Add $39k.

The person quoted says “he doesn’t think hospitals are artificially inflating COVID cases as a financial incentive” but I have a very hard time believing that.
 
QCassidy352 said:
It’s 250,000 dead as of now, in about 2 months, (that number will go way higher, as the pandemic is nowhere near over) WITH global social distancing the likes of which none of us have ever seen before.

Your argument is like saying that seatbelts keep traffic fatalities to a relatively low level, so let’s all stop wearing seatbelts.
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No that isn't the argument. The argument is how many deaths are worth it? Do you believe they should shut down the economies of the world every winter? If your answer is no then that means you don't feel 250,000 to 600,000 deaths per year are worth that financial cost?
 
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