Apple Watch Pulse Oximetry Can Be Reactivated Through Software in 2028 or With Successful Appeal

[turbineseaplane]

Speaking of patent trolls: there is one company that even claimed to have a patent for round corners and won at a US court. I just know that its name starts with an 'A', but can't remember the rest ... maybe you know it?

…pple pple plleeeeaase!!

Who could act such a way!!?

The audacity!

 

[kiranmk2]

I’m so confused. So these guys say you infringed on our patents and because of that made an unreliable sensor? Sounds like some stupid logic to me.

“Kiani has maligned the Apple Watch blood oxygen sensor several times, saying that customers are "better off without" the feature because it is not a "reliable, medical pulse oximeter."”

so basically, Masimo is admitting that their technology is unreliable…

Just because someone infringes your patents, doesn't mean they will do it right or get all the know-how correct. If Panasonic infringed CATL's LFP battery patent but could only made batteries with only half the energy density that CATL could achieve it doesn't mean the technology is bad, just that the infringer has done a bad job.

I'm amazed at the trail of failure within Apple to allow this to happen. It seems well documented that "poaching" employees isn't an issue in California, but one the Massimo engineers were at Apple, presumably they were told to develop similar technology that got around the Massimo patents. They didn't which is failure 1. Then you have the Apple IP team giving the opinion to management that Apple had freedom to operate and sell watches based on their technology. Failure number 2. Then you had Apple management that refused to agree a licencing deal with Massimo, resulting in the order to halt Watch shipments. Failure 3.

I'd be interested to hear how Watch sales are impacted. Sadly, given Apple doesn't break out these numbers in it's financial reports, we'll likely never know.

 

[tarkeybear]

I bought Ultra Gen-1 and pulse oximetry continues to work even after the decision to restrict it in US. I was afraid that any software updates to my Ultra would kill the feature, but it seems as though it continues to work, maybe the software sees a serial number pattern before and after the enforcement date and lets "before" watches to continue to use the feature?
For the person commenting about once-a-day reading, I am not sure if mine automatically reads once a day, but I definitely can force it to take a reading anytime by pressing the crown and selecting the app (looks like a red and a blue line chasing each other). Nice to have if I am feeling winded, otherwise I don't get much practical use out of it.

 

[roar08]

Getting the same value one time is not the standard by which to make that judgment.

It's identical to the pulse ox device I have at home — all the time. So either Ultra is fine at measuring pulse ox or all portable devices are inaccurate. Which — maybe they are. And in that case it would be disingenuous to single out Ultra.

 

[Ghost31]

Cracks me up when people talk about companies "stealing" employees as if they were kidnapped and now work in duress against their will. There's a company not far from here poaching engineers from another, smaller company. I know for a fact they're paying some of these folks over 300k/yr (or more) which is doubling or nearly doubling their salaries. Does it suck if you're the smaller company? Undoubtedly. Will bitching about it stop it from happening? Not for a moment.

Did you really think that’s all this is about? Freedom to just…randomly hire people? Not a targeted effort to initiate licensing talks, then go around and instead of following through with that, hire a couple dozen of their engineers to specifically work on the exact technology they were talking about integrating? Look into the finer details. The more you unravel, the more it looks like Apple made a concerted effort to take this technology from this specific company

I’m one of the biggest fanboys around, but if you really think Apple lost billions in sales and it’s just over a lawsuit with no merit, you truly don’t have your eyes open

 

[Robert.Walter]

patent trolls are the worst

If intellectual property is to have meaning and value upon creation it has to be transferable to any new entity by the holder.

Patent troll is only a thing among those who don’t want to respect or are to cheap to license a legally granted patent.

 

[Robert.Walter]

Masimo’s licensing fee must be exorbitant because it really seems like it would be in Apple’s interest to settle at this point.

Agree.

CEO saying he hasn’t talked isn’t the same as the product managers and law teams not talking.

I expect ceo might be trying to leverage this into an acquisition deal.

 

[Robert.Walter]

Masimo seems like a child right now. They are actively trying to hurt consumers. I hope apple gets the patents invalidated and successfully appeals the ban.

Nonsense. They are not trying to hurt consumers. They are looking after what they think are their best interests. I’m not a fan of their statements but I can’t agree with your overdramatized take.

 

[Apollo68]

If intellectual property is to have meaning and value upon creation it has to be transferable to any new entity by the holder.

Patent troll is only a thing among those who don’t want to respect or are to cheap to license a legally granted patent.

I agree with you mostly. I disagree with the last point regarding licensing costs. Many universities have a model like that because they are not really an entity that can effectively commercialize a researchers invention.

 

[Robert.Walter]

Sure, but Masimo is no patent troll, Apple poached employees from them and infringed on patents - both of which has been confirmed in several lawsuits.

Poaching is not a thing.

If there is a non compete violation on the employee.

If poaching was a thing nobody could ever reasonably change jobs.

 

[Robert.Walter]

I agree with you mostly. I disagree with the last point regarding licensing costs. Many universities have a model like that because they are not really an entity that can effectively commercialize a researchers invention.

Why not?

You own a patent you can commercialize it. Universities can set up departments and hire lawyers for the maintenance of licensing agreements or auctioning of the patents.

 

[Robert.Walter]

Did you really think that’s all this is about? Freedom to just…randomly hire people? Not a targeted effort to initiate licensing talks, then go around and instead of following through with that, hire a couple dozen of their engineers to specifically work on the exact technology they were talking about integrating? Look into the finer details. The more you unravel, the more it looks like Apple made a concerted effort to take this technology from this specific company

I’m one of the biggest fanboys around, but if you really think Apple lost billions in sales and it’s just over a lawsuit with no merit, you truly don’t have your eyes open

Masimo could have counter offered too. If it’s a free market, except for trade secrets, employees have to be portable at market prices.

 

[Robert.Walter]

It's identical to the pulse ox device I have at home — all the time. So either Ultra is fine at measuring pulse ox or all portable devices are inaccurate. Which — maybe they are. And in that case it would be disingenuous to single out Ultra.

We have had various AW6 PO2 and they are always within a percent or two of medical grade units but usually dead nuts on.

 

[JCCL]

I’m so confused. So these guys say you infringed on our patents and because of that made an unreliable sensor? Sounds like some stupid logic to me.

Well, it could easily mean "they made a poor implementation of our tech". Really not hard to comprehend. Not saying it's true or not as I do not have knowledge, but I don't see why that statement would be difficult to comprehend.

 

[mox358]

Agree.

CEO saying he hasn’t talked isn’t the same as the product managers and law teams not talking.

I expect ceo might be trying to leverage this into an acquisition deal.

Previously the CEO said they didn't want to license, they wanted to "collaborate" with Apple on their O2 sensor. I also recall reading they wanted like $100 per Apple Watch sold.

I think you're right their CEO is trying something beyond a straight payout.

 

[turbineseaplane]

The company is under no obligation to license anything to Apple or anyone else

The onus is on Apple to not steal IP!!

The entitlement on the part of Apple is out of control. You don’t get to just ship something with somebody else’s IP you haven’t licensed.

 

[@Brett]

Irony being Masimo started this legal campaign around the same time they were readying their own watch. Which looks like a poor Apple Watch clone. Also their suit seems predicated on Apple poaching people for this technology. But Apple did not implement this until many years later. It is also not illegal to poach employees.

 

[Apollo68]

Why not?

You own a patent you can commercialize it. Universities can set up departments and hire lawyers for the maintenance of licensing agreements or auctioning of the patents.

They do frequently license it off, which you seemed to object to. The university is not the party commercializing the patent in that case, the licensee is.

 

[Born Again]

Not mutually exclusive, like many medical companies.

Your allegiance to Apple makes me question humanity.

 

[ToyoCorollaGR]

patent trolls are the worst

Except Masimo isn't one...

 

[JapanApple]

A feature that isn't as good as a full-size medical apparatus to do the same measurements. Guestimation at the best

 

[Ghost31]

Masimo could have counter offered too. If it’s a free market, except for trade secrets, employees have to be portable at market prices.

So basically “Masimo could have licensed their tech but didn’t. So it’s ok for Apple to just steal it”.

Gotcha

 

[Mansu944]

Masimo seems like a child right now. They are actively trying to hurt consumers. I hope apple gets the patents invalidated and successfully appeals the ban.

Then Apple should pay. They’re the ones hurting consumers.

 

[coolfactor]

I want an Apple that is inventing solutions, not hiring workers from other companies that bring protected IP with them. This never should've happened.

 

[AppleTO]

So all of this only applies in the USA? We’ve got plenty with pulse oximetry up in Toronto if anyone wants one.