Apple's Face ID Turns Android Makers Away From Under-Screen Fingerprint Recognition

[deanthedev]

Match it at what? Synthetic benchmarks? I don't care about that, why would I?

I think most of today's phones offer a good experience, starting with mid-rangers, and in particular all flagships. I don't find Apple's experience better because of the CPU, I find it much worse because of the OS and the many restrictions Apple's greed puts around them.

To put in in context, I find the speed of my P9 very close to my 10.5" iPad Pro. I don't have any complaints about the speed of the phone, it's fine, and it's using a Kirin 955, which is somewhere close to a Snapdragon 821. Putting in an i7 wouldn't make the phone any better. Putting iOS on it would make it much slower in real use, since more taps and swipes are required to do just about anything, it stops being customizable, and becomes much more restricted in what I can and cannot do with it.

If you only do simple tasks that’s true. If you do actual work, it’s not. iOS is vastly superior to Android when you start looking for high-end Apps.

Can you even name me 3 Android Apps that utilize those octa-core processors?

My iPhone 7 Plus destroys my S7, S8 and Pixel. The iPhone 8 and X will widen the gap even further.

 

[Nalmond92]

My main issue with FaceID is that it adds additional steps to things like ApplePay, and anyone who argues it'll be quicker is kidding themselves on.

TouchID ApplePay, put phone to sensor with finger on the TouchID button, instant payment.

FaceID ApplePay, take phone out, double click button, look at phone, hold to the sensor and pay.

It's adding two, yes two additional steps to an already near instant payment method, which in technology is a step backwards.

Here’s how I currently use Apple Pay on iPhone 7.

Double tap the home button to get my card up (it takes a second or 2 for the card to come up when just put against the reader. Double tapping prior makes it much faster)

Leave finger on home button

Raise phone to pay

Touch ID authenticates.

With the X
Double tap
Raise phone - Face ID scans face as this happens.
Pay

Should be quicker on the X

 

[Mizhou]

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, and having both Face ID and Touch ID simply means that your phone is only as secure as the least secure means of authentication (which is Touch ID in this case).

While true statement holds true for a chain, it's not applicable on everything. Let's say you You are using a car to tow another car. You use one chain between them. If one link breaks in the chain, you can't tow, and your statement is true.

If you however use TWO chains, and use them in parallel (independent of each other), then all the links in the weaker chain can break, while you can still tow because all the links in the other chain are intact.

It's the same with a door with two locks. If one of the locks in supersede and one is very weak, then if someone picks the weak lock, doesn't mean they can open the door, because the supersede lock is still intact. The stronger locks function is independent of the weaker lock.

You are right that the FaceID is better than TouchID, but they are very much independent of each other. Or breach of one of them, doesn't imply that the other fails too.

According to Apple there's a chance of 1 in 50000 that a random person can unlock the iPhone using TouchID, and one chance in a millipn that a random person can unlock using his face. If a person has a similar enough fingerprint to yours and uses the TouchID, it would unlock the phone, if that was the only protection. Same for a person with a face that is similar to yours. Ig the phone is configured so that you can unlock with EITHER the fingerprint OR face, then your statement about the weakest link is true, but if it's configured so that BOTH have to match, then your statement is false. Let's say the random persons fingerprint matches, but not his face. What you are saying is that the iPhone will unlock, because the TouchID is weaker. That is simply not true, it they both have to match, for the phone to unlock. even if the TouchID is weaker, the chance that both matches are far less than a chance in a million.

 

[PickUrPoison]

I don't know about that. All the reporting was that Apple wanted to use both but couldn't make it work in time for launch. Not that they always wanted to ditch Touch ID.

No, the reporting is that Apple has been working on FaceID for three years, and ditched TouchID a year ago when they got FaceID working.

What you mentioned were rumors from those who were outside of Apple. I do think Apple had a disinformation campaign going, and Qualcomm bit hard.

 

[symphara]

If you only do simple tasks that’s true. If you do actual work, it’s not. iOS is vastly superior to Android when you start looking for high-end Apps.

I'm not sure what "work" you do on your phone, and what "work" I'm supposed to do on mine.

I use it for: phone calls, email, news and web browsing, messaging, video calls, maps and transport (tickets, schedules etc), taking/viewing/editing/sharing photos, banking, 2-factor-authentication for various things, music, podcasts, video streaming (YouTube, Twitch etc), song recognition, document viewing (PDFs etc), shopping lists, storing all sorts of stuff (notes, passwords etc), viewing and controlling remote cameras, occasional light gaming.

That's off the top of my head. Possibly others too. None involving "work".

When I think about "work", which for me is heavy editing of things, compiling huge projects and so forth, my phone could do nothing to help with it. Putting an A11 or whatever in there would make no difference whatsoever.

Plus, I don't think that synthetic benchmarks accurately reflect an SoC's capabilities, when these SoCs have all sorts of DSPs, ISPs, modems etc.

Can you even name me 3 Android Apps that utilize those octa-core processors?

Why would I and why do you think I care at all about it?

I'll tell you where my phone utterly destroys yours: in doing simple stuff, like connecting to a WiFi network and getting back to the app I was using. In organising my apps and widgets the way I want them, so I can get to them in the easiest manner. In the way I can put night mode in my drop-down commands, without it being hidden in a sub-menu. And so forth.

 

[dojoman]

“Revolutionary”
“Others are following”

Wait a second! I’ve been reading these forums forever and I thought Apple doesn’t innovate anymore. I’m totally confused...

Android has facing scanning for years. /s

 

[petsounds]

Except knowing Android device makers, they will store a clear picture of my face while also making that data easily accessible by 3rd parties because of the rush to market meant security was put on the backburner.

Exactly my first thought. This is going to turn into a privacy and security nightmare for people not using iPhones. Whatever 3D mapping they use will eventually fall into the hands of third-party companies and governments, either through open APIs or through security breaches.

 

[a.gomez]

because it is easier

 

[ani4ani]

I think in 10 years people will be laughing at the fact that you used to use a fingerprint to verify your identity. Obviously I think this was a design decision, but ideally technology should be able to very your identity without ever interfering with the person. Hopefully faceID isnt too much of a burden.
[doublepost=1507409439][/doublepost]

Fingerprint sensor.. COPIED. Dual Camera... COPIED, Portrait mode... COPIED, Remove headphone jack... COPIED, Remove fingerprint sensor... COPIED. It is hilarious how much they follow.

You do realise that in every single example above they all existed / did not exist / were removed before Apple made their magical claim?
[doublepost=1507412931][/doublepost]

If you only do simple tasks that’s true. If you do actual work, it’s not. iOS is vastly superior to Android when you start looking for high-end Apps.

Can you even name me 3 Android Apps that utilize those octa-core processors?

My iPhone 7 Plus destroys my S7, S8 and Pixel. The iPhone 8 and X will widen the gap even further.

What actual work do you do on your iPhone?

 

[a0me]

That is completely false. Apple never stated that identical twins can trick FaceID.

Maybe in your alternate reality, but in our world they even said it during the keynote.
You know, that part where Schiller said “if you happen to have an evil twin, you really need to protect your sensitive data with a passcode.”

 

[waquzy]

Apple is a trend setter.

Agreed. Apple is still way ahead of Samsung in every way IMO. Can't see it changing in the next decade to be honest

 

[a0me]

Actually, Apple hasn't admitted anything like this. Out of every million people, there is on average one who looks enough like you to unlock your phone. (The one-in-a-million chance doesn't mean someone can try a million times until they succeed, it means there is one who will always succeed, and the rest will always fail).

Your identical twin has a higher chance to be a person who can unlock your phone. But most identical twins can't. Some can. So one in thousand identical twins shouldn't buy an iPhone X if they don't trust their twin, and if the twin is likely to get physical access to the phone. The same is of course true for that twin.

As mentioned above, Schiller said “If you happen to have an evil twin, you really need to protect your sensitive data with a passcode.” Schiller is pretty high up at Apple, and the September Keynote was a fairly major event for Apple, so you'll forgive me if I heard that as an "admission from Apple."
Now I'd like to know where you heard that "only one in a thousand identical twins can fool Face ID."

 

[formerpc]

Lol, you think all 30,000 dots that it mapped over your entire face will suddenly be in completely different places & different distances apart, making a wildly different & unrecognizable pattern.... if you’re a bit grumpy???

Lol, do your friends & family not recognize you whenever you get grumpy?? Are you Dr. Jeckyl/Mr. Hyde??

I'm using "Hey Siri" as my basis. Unless I get my inflection just right, it doesn't work.

 

[QCassidy352]

there were leaks as far back as last summer (2016) saying the iphone 8(X) may not have touchID.
there were leaks this summer which pretty much show the actual X / no touch ID.
https://www.macrumors.com/2017/07/03/ming-chi-kuo-iphone-omit-touch-id/

(on a phone now.. can’t really search the archives as i could on a computer.. but they’re here)

there were also leaks earlier this year stating Apple/TSMC figured out touchID under the display.

it’s highly likely Apple already knows how to do touchID under the display.

especially when considering another Kuo report saying if faceID doesn’t prove popular with consumers, Apple will bring back touchID except under the screen..
so, how could they have that as a fallback plan if they don’t know how to do it?

Yes, leaks saying it might not have Touch ID because they couldn't make it work, not because they wanted to replace it.

From the very article you linked:

The analyst [Kuo] said that Apple is still facing technical challenges with implementing Touch ID into a full-screen front-facing display.
"We predict the OLED model won’t support fingerprint recognition, reasons being: (1) the full-screen design doesn’t work with existing capacitive fingerprint recognition, and (2) the scan-through ability of the under-display fingerprint solution still has technical challenges, including: (i) requirement for a more complex panel pixel design; (ii) disappointing scan-through of OLED panel despite it being thinner than LCD panel; and (iii) weakened scan-through performance due to overlayered panel module. As the new OLED iPhone won’t support under-display fingerprint recognition, we now do not expect production ramp-up will be delayed again (we previously projected the ramp-up would be postponed to late October or later)."

As I've been saying, the chatter before release was that Apple wanted Touch ID under the screen and couldn't make it work, NOT that they always intended to replace Touch ID with Face ID. And the link you posted supports that point entirely.

 

[deanthedev]

I'm not sure what "work" you do on your phone, and what "work" I'm supposed to do on mine.

I use it for: phone calls, email, news and web browsing, messaging, video calls, maps and transport (tickets, schedules etc), taking/viewing/editing/sharing photos, banking, 2-factor-authentication for various things, music, podcasts, video streaming (YouTube, Twitch etc), song recognition, document viewing (PDFs etc), shopping lists, storing all sorts of stuff (notes, passwords etc), viewing and controlling remote cameras, occasional light gaming.

That's off the top of my head. Possibly others too. None involving "work".

When I think about "work", which for me is heavy editing of things, compiling huge projects and so forth, my phone could do nothing to help with it. Putting an A11 or whatever in there would make no difference whatsoever.

Plus, I don't think that synthetic benchmarks accurately reflect an SoC's capabilities, when these SoCs have all sorts of DSPs, ISPs, modems etc.


Why would I and why do you think I care at all about it?

I'll tell you where my phone utterly destroys yours: in doing simple stuff, like connecting to a WiFi network and getting back to the app I was using. In organising my apps and widgets the way I want them, so I can get to them in the easiest manner. In the way I can put night mode in my drop-down commands, without it being hidden in a sub-menu. And so forth.

Clearly you do care based on your lengthy response to try and diminish the superiority of Apples processors as compared to the vastly inferior ones in Android devices. Or pretend it doesn’t matter by relying on the trusty Android fallback of widgets.

The reason you didn’t name any Android Apps isn’t because you don’t want to or don’t care - it’s because you can’t. Android devs can’t even be bothered to optimize for tablets let alone for the latest devices/processors.

 

[Dremmel]

I wonder how many inquiries they are getting about the notch? Maybe we'll see an Android device with 2 notches in a bit of one-upmanship.

 

[deanthedev]

Maybe in your alternate reality, but in our world they even said it during the keynote.
You know, that part where Schiller said “if you happen to have an evil twin, you really need to protect your sensitive data with a passcode.”

Apple is very aware of the scrutiny they get and the double standards applied to them vs other companies regarding new tech. So instead of making an absolute claim or lengthy explanation about twins, they turn it into a joke by showing Spock’s evil twin.

Apple is being very smart here. They have two possible routes to take regarding twins:

1. They claim FaceID can tell twins apart. Thousand of people around the world test it out on twins. Most of the time it doesn’t work, but one set of twins manages to trick FaceID and unlock an iPhone. Apple looks like a fool for claiming it could tell twins apart. People won’t remember all the times FaceID COULD tell the twins apart - they’ll only remember the SINGLE time it fails.

2. Apple makes no claim regarding twins, other than the “evil twin” joke at the keynote and their white paper which only states the chances of a false ID go up with identical twins or siblings. Again thousands of twins try out FaceID. Again the majority of twins finds FaceID is smart enough to tell them apart. Apple (and FaceID) now look to be even more secure than people thought based on the fact most twins can’t fool it.

This is my prediction when the iPhone X comes out - that lots of twins will try it and find they can’t fool it. And when someone does, nobody will care because Apple never claimed it could tell twins apart.

 

[symphara]

Clearly you do care based on your lengthy response to try and diminish the superiority of Apples processors as compared to the vastly inferior ones in Android devices. Or pretend it doesn’t matter by relying on the trusty Android fallback of widgets.

The reason you didn’t name any Android Apps isn’t because you don’t want to or don’t care - it’s because you can’t. Android devs can’t even be bothered to optimize for tablets let alone for the latest devices/processors.

I don’t believe in the alleged superiority of the Apple processors. Even if they are faster at, say, integer arithmetic, I don’t think it’s that important for the smartphone experience. When it comes to sheer speed, my current phone is fine. I can compare it to my iPad Pro 10.5 and it feels about the same to me. Any difference is marginal and not always in the iPad’s favour, which is quite something considering it probably runs with a higher TDP.

However I strongly and unequivocally believe in the superiority of the Android experience. It’s much more flexible, richer in features, faster to accomplish stuff.

I have no idea what you mean by “the reason you didn’t name any Android Apps”. What apps? What do you want me to name? I probably use Chrome the most, I guess. Is that ok, or do you want something else?

 

[x-evil-x]

Samsung doesn't manufacture the camera parts.

They don’t need to. I’m sure big corporations know what other companies have well before of release dates.

 

[IowaLynn]

I don't rip video on phone but it was an interesting benchmark.

I love Iris recognition and entire ease of use how everything just works - on Samsung Galaxy S8+.

As for fingerprint, got to say it is perfect. My left hand holds my phone anyway and it's ... natural placement. A case helps make it easier.

Have bought 3 iPhones over last 4 years and isn't my cup of tea. But it is for some. So what.

 

[lazyrighteye]

Wait. I thought the new tech, that no one here has even used, yet somehow already written off as a fad, was going to be usurped by TouchID in next year's phone.

You mean... all of Apple's FacialID R&D might have been intended for something more than just the iPhone X?

Crazy talk.

 

[deanthedev]

I don’t believe in the alleged superiority of the Apple processors. Even if they are faster at, say, integer arithmetic, I don’t think it’s that important for the smartphone experience. When it comes to sheer speed, my current phone is fine. I can compare it to my iPad Pro 10.5 and it feels about the same to me. Any difference is marginal and not always in the iPad’s favour, which is quite something considering it probably runs with a higher TDP.

However I strongly and unequivocally believe in the superiority of the Android experience. It’s much more flexible, richer in features, faster to accomplish stuff.

I have no idea what you mean by “the reason you didn’t name any Android Apps”. What apps? What do you want me to name? I probably use Chrome the most, I guess. Is that ok, or do you want something else?

Android is inferior because of one basic truth in computers: hardware is useless without software. Android Apps are inferior to iOS Apps which makes any Android device inferior. This is before we take into account Androids vastly inferior security, privacy or ridiculously horrid update mechanism.

Your claim is as ridiculous as me buying a Windows PC, never installing a single piece of software on it, and then proclaiming it’s more useful than Linux or a Mac.

The reason I asked you to pick some Apps (so I can run them on my Android devices) is very simple. If I choose the Apps then I’ll be accused of cherry-picking in order to make iOS look better/faster and Android inferior/slower. Ive used Android and iOS for years. I’m very confident you won’t be able to find any high-end Apps on Android that can match the iOS equivalents.


And you are 100% wrong about processor power being irrelevant. It’s what drives developers to come up with new advanced software/features. It’s been this way for the past 30+ years. Features that were only possible on high-end workstations made their way to the PC and are now available in a phone. Imagine the world we’d live in if AMD, Intel, Nvidia and others decided that computers were “fast enough” and didn’t keep pushing the limits of performance?

 

[citysnaps]

Amazing how many people are passing Judgement on FaceID, before it is even released to the public.

The crass comments remind me of the time before TouchID was released to the public, or anyone had a chance to try it personally. Funny thing is, how many phones have fingerprint sensors now. And yes, I know, some existed before iPhone, they weren't first here.

Fingerprint sensors are great, I am not convinced FaceID will be great, but won't pass judgement until I try it.

I remember when some people here actually thought there would be iPhone owners mugged on the street and forced to unlock their phone. Or have their thumb cutoff and stolen with their phone. And got all frothed up about those possibilities.

TouchID is far from perfect. It routinely fails me at least twice a day on first application. I'm guessing I unlock my phone around 50 times a day, so that's a success on first application rate of 96%. And that's with dry hands. If my hands are even barely damp, forget about it.

 

[HEK]

I didn't say it was a single-component system. I said it was single-purpose. You can't use Touch ID for anything other than identity verification. The array of sensors in Face ID can be used for 2-D and 3-D imaging, AR, gesture/expression-based control of UI, and more.

Meantime, whether Touch ID or Face ID, the secure enclave is a part of the identity-validation system.

Gotcha, thanks.

 

[840quadra]

I remember when some people here actually thought there would be iPhone owners mugged on the street and forced to unlock their phone. Or have their thumb cutoff and stolen with their phone. And got all frothed up about those possibilities.

TouchID is far from perfect. It routinely fails me at least twice a day on first application. I'm guessing I unlock my phone around 50 times a day, so that's a success on first application rate of 96%. And that's with dry hands. If my hands are even barely damp, forget about it.

Oddly I added one of my knuckles to touchID on my iPad because when wet it appears to work better than one of my fingertips.

Main reasoning too, I tend to get less food, paint, or whatever on my knuckles as compared to my fingertips.
.