Apple's Face ID Turns Android Makers Away From Under-Screen Fingerprint Recognition

[0lf]

There were multiple reports that they wanted Touch ID under the screen and couldn't make it work. Subsequent to that, reports come out that they never wanted it anyway. You call that "trying desperately to trash Apple"; I call it being cognizant of how the narrative has changed.

No. There were rumors and report based on anonymous sources than Apple had trouble with touch ID under the display, then there are statements by an Apple executive than they stop developing it because they found face ID to be better.

 

[Gilligan's last elephant]

I think that’s a little harsh for a variety of reasons, and you’ve certainly demonstrated that your definition of “quality” is not average, since you’re the sort of consumer who carries around both a Fiio and a phone, and who has even heard about using a DAC for a laptop. (Funny that the Chinese designed the Fiio X3 to resemble an iPod.) Maybe it isn’t reasonable to expect more than “broadly satisfactory” audio from a smartphone.

My Fiio X3 doesn't look like any iPod. More like a Sony device I had around 2005.
I use DAC to get good quality audio when listening to my music library via my laptop either via headphones or my main sound system. I would hope my definition of "quality" is NOT average. The average person probably thinks that bass boomy Beats headphones are high quality

Edit
http://www.tinbel.com/product/fiio-x3

 

[Regime2008]

My Fiio X3 doesn't look like any iPod. More like a Sony device I had around 2005.
I use DAC to get good quality audio when listening to my music library via my laptop either via headphones or my main sound system. I would hope my definition of "quality" is NOT average. The average person probably thinks that bass boomy Beats headphones are high quality

Edit
http://www.tinbel.com/product/fiio-x3

This is what kills me about today's manufacturers. They usually combine sub-par components, severely mark up the price, and throw in a comment about audio quality, and people quickly pull out their wallets. I cannot listen to music the same way I did, 5 years ago. Now I must have a quality DAC and amp preferably.

The thing is, it doesn't cost much to include a quality dac in a device already. This is why I respect LG for including chips like the sabre es9218 in their PHONES without adding on extra to the price tag. Customers need to dictate that they NEED more than just an outdated OLED panel and a replacement for TouchID, half baked wireless charging, as justification to a price-hike. Use a panel that competes with the Note 8 in terms of brightness and resolution. Include wireless charging, and include the option to have TouchID as well. I understand apple wants to dictate how their userbase uses bio metrics. Then why include TouchID and FaceID in 2017 if FaceID is supposed to take over?

 

[Gilligan's last elephant]

I understand the psychology (I’m driving an Audi instead of my old Corolla). But the consensus is that AirPod quality is certainly no worse, and in most opinions superior that the [edit. lousy] earbuds we’ve been given for years.

For circa $160, I would expect Airpods to have a far superior audio quality to earbuds provided with phones.

 

[PickUrPoison]

<snip>

For example, I'll take Apple's very fast cores for single threaded and single purpose tasks any day over ARMs' more paralell based CPU's.

With Apple’s A11 they’ve got the best of both worlds: two high performance cores and four energy efficient cores. And a task scheduler that can use all six in parallel when desirable.

A-series CPUs are ARM-based; Apple licenses ARM’s A64 instruction set and then designs their own chips, which they are allowed to do since they purchased architecture license from ARM. Other companies just use the cores designed by ARM. ARM’s designs aren’t bad but they’re not at the same level as Apple’s.

Then Apple adds all the other pieces of the A11 SoC: three GPU cores, the M11 motion coprocessor, the image signal processor and the dual core “neural engine” at 600 Billion ops/sec used by FaceID and other machine learning tasks. The A11 is an extremely impressive piece of hardware.

 

[Kabeyun]

For circa $160, I would expect Airpods to have a far superior audio quality to earbuds provided with phones.

You’re comparing apples & oranges. The extra $130 buys you wireless buds that use the new W1 chip to instantly connect and individually sync L&R audio. Even if the audio were no different (and most believe the it’s better), wireless doesn’t come free.

 

[PickUrPoison]

For circa $160, I would expect Airpods to have a far superior audio quality to earbuds provided with phones.

For $400 or $500 I would expect AirPods to have far superior audio quality. At $160, they are at the extreme low end of all offerings by any competitor in this space. There is no Apple tax here, more like an Apple discount.

 

[QCassidy352]

yeah, i read them.. all the way through.
i sort of feel like you're moving the goal posts.. what i originally replied to was you saying:

"If the intention was always to replace Touch ID with Face ID, when did that story only leak out once it became apparent that Apple had run out of time to make Touch ID work?"​

and my point was that the above is inaccurate.. the reports about replacing touchID with faceID were out prior to Apple 'running out of time'.

You're right that some of the reports prior to launch discussed replacement, so yes, that story did "leak out" prior to launch. Fair point. But, I don't think it was the dominant narrative. Other reports, more numerous reports, as late as July, said that wasn't the plan. As I've said many times now, I don't pretend to know for sure which version is true.

here's a little bit of a flaw with your line of thought (imo)... if faceID sucks, Apple is screwed.. royally.
if i buy a $1000 phone and the faceID doesn't work.. or i find touchID is better.. then i'm returning the phone.. me and millions of others doing the same.

I don't think Apple is doing this because Face ID sucks. I think they're doing it because Face ID DOESN'T suck... but for about 2 months between announcement and launch, nobody is able to make that determination for themselves. So the question is, what narrative does Apple want in that interim period, before people can see for themselves that Face ID is pretty cool? Do they want "We couldn't make Touch ID work" or "We picked Face ID because it's way better, and we never wanted Touch ID anyway"? Again, I'm not saying that's "proof" of what really happened, but I certainly believe that the narrative you're accepting is the one Apple wants you to accept. Could it also be true? Sure, could be.

Anyway... I feel like there's nothing left to be said here. I think the positions are pretty clear, and frankly, I don't really care enough about this issue to merit the amount of time I've spent reading and replying -- I just got sucked into the debate, and now I'm stepping out. Cheers.

 

[MH01]

OK, bad analogy on my part but my original point still stands; the Pixel does the translating and sends the result to the buds.

As an aside, I confirmed what you said here, and found this interesting statement:

Headphones with a 3.5 mm jack don't convert the music, but rely on a DAC in your phone to do it. That DAC is what converts all those MP3 files into music you can actually hear.

Headphones that use a Lightning cable or Bluetooth, however, have a DAC inside the headphones. These include Apple's AirPods and EarPods.​

This brings up the interesting point that it’s a little more complicated. “Legacy” headphones with a 3.5mm jack do work via a lightning adapter, which means that even iPhones with no 3.5mm jack must still be doing onboard D/A decoding.

The adapter - lightning to 3.5mm has a dac . AirPods have a dac inside them

I got your point about the pixel, you are spot on

 

[Abazigal]

That has to do with progression. You would imagine that once a teen gets their first car, their next vehicle should be an upgrade. Moving from your first apartment, into a home, should be an upgrade. Apple removed the headphone jack, so you would imagine that their wireless airpods, should be an upgrade in audio quality, not a downgrade. Just like how many feel FaceID will be a downgrade compared to TouchID.

I guess one way of looking at your analogy would be - how do you define an upgrade to a house or a car? Maybe I move to a smaller pad, but it’s closer to my workplace, the neighbours are nicer and there are more amenities around me? A sacrifice in one area could net me so much more in other aspects, resulting in a net win for me overall.

If you ask me what factors would make me want to use a pair of headphones and keep using it, sound quality wouldn’t actually be on the top of my list, because for me, the best sounding headphones are moot if they aren’t comfortable to wear.

In my opinion, the Airpods do represent an upgrade in terms of comfort, portability, battery life and ease of use. And because of these factors, I do find myself using my Airpods more. There are many other ways to improve the user experience of a pair of headphones besides sound quality.

I suspect this may be the case with face ID as well. Yes, maybe there will be a few edge cases where it is inferior to Touch ID, but it will likely prove to be superior in so many other areas that it will represent a net win for most users.

 

[SeattleMoose]

Do you have the option to just go with a passcode? I am not a fan of biometric log-on.

 

[Gameboy70]

Not true, once you look at the phone it’s unlocked. Anyone can swipe up and open it.

Right now I frequently raise my phone, check for notifications or news, then lay it back down. My phone is still secure, because I have not used touchID. FaceID will have unlocked my phone and when I walk away from my desk it will be open to anyone.

Tap the sleep button when setting it down, and voilà—locked again.
[doublepost=1507502249][/doublepost]

Face ID also requires additional effort - you have to hold it up to your face. If I am in a meeting and want to discreetly check my messages, with TouchID I can unlock the phone under the table without even looking then take a quick glance, with FaceID I would have to hold it up where it can see me, make the appropriate interest expression, then look at the message. Its far less discrete and more effort. No thank you.

From Apple's About Face ID advanced technology:

Face ID requires that the TrueDepth camera sees your face, whether your iPhone X is lying on a surface or you're holding it in a natural position.

If you can see the screen, it (more specifically, the TDC) can see you.

 

[Kabeyun]

The adapter - lightning to 3.5mm has a dac . AirPods have a dac inside them

I got your point about the pixel, you are spot on

Lol got that info thx.

 

[MH01]

I guess one way of looking at your analogy would be - how do you define an upgrade to a house or a car? Maybe I move to a smaller pad, but it’s closer to my workplace, the neighbours are nicer and there are more amenities around me? A sacrifice in one area could net me so much more in other aspects, resulting in a net win for me overall.

If you ask me what factors would make me want to use a pair of headphones and keep using it, sound quality wouldn’t actually be on the top of my list, because for me, the best sounding headphones are moot if they aren’t comfortable to wear.

In my opinion, the Airpods do represent an upgrade in terms of comfort, portability, battery life and ease of use. And because of these factors, I do find myself using my Airpods more. There are many other ways to improve the user experience of a pair of headphones besides sound quality.

I suspect this may be the case with face ID as well. Yes, maybe there will be a few edge cases where it is inferior to Touch ID, but it will likely prove to be superior in so many other areas that it will represent a net win for most users.

Ones first car or residence is typically constrained by $$$. Aka you would not be living there or driving x if money was not an issue . Unless one goes through schooling with rich parents , this is a right of passage, getting a job .....better job results in better accommodation and cars Im surprised you tried to spin this ? Was your education paid for ?

I'd argue that if SQ is not your main criteria , in which case, music is not up there on your list.

I've let people try the shure 846 v EarPods and not a single one of them would keep the EarPods. The difference is that huge. SQ AirPods = EarPods

Anyway . AirPods
Comfort : identical to EarPods
Portability : pros / cons to EarPods - the case and having to put them back inside to charge is an overhead over just using the EarPods
Battery life : con to the AirPods , see point above . EarPods battery and hassle free
Ease of use : EarPods actually - my AirPods don't always synch and when I forget to charge them or the case, I'm stuck charging them


So .... for me, to the above , it's meh, EarPods are less hassle.....but...

Where the AirPods shine , is wireless, that's it, and Based on that fact, they are brilliant for certain applications. I love them for the gym, they Are the best gym headphones I've ever owned.

I would never use them for serious music listening . And they are £30 SQ for £160, and I too did not buy them for SQ....but I own other headphones for music

 

[Thor774]

Apple's killing things that are useful. Not only at a hardware level but with iOS 11 too. I get that they could not make Touch ID work under the display and had to go for Face ID only that was just a far second option under the development cycle after the info I have gathered.
Have you seen the killing of the landscape keyboard on iOS 11? THAT was something really stupid to do from Apple. To take away a very useful feature from the iPhones was just absolutely horrendous.

 

[Gameboy70]

Then why did they just add Touch ID to the MacBooks? Next gen they getting rid of it?

I would say yes. The Touch Bar adds too much engineering overhead for the few problems it solves (underscored by consumer and developer indifference), and Apple would increase their MPB margins by purchasing the same components they use for the TrueDepth array and applying them to next-gen MacBook pros. I predict that By this time next year, Apple will release a 15-inch “MacBook Escape” (with or without Face ID) alongside the next and last generation of TB laptops.

 

[Abazigal]

I would say yes. The Touch Bar adds too much engineering overhead for the few problems it solves (underscored by consumer and developer indifference), and Apple would increase their MPB margins by purchasing the same components they use for the TrueDepth array and applying them to next-gen MacBook pros. I predict that By this time next year, Apple will release a 15-inch “MacBook Escape” (with or without Face ID) alongside the next and last generation of TB laptops.

Knowing modern Apple, they have a long term goal for the touch bar. This is only the first iteration. I would guess it is full touch keyboard/interface with haptic that changes depending what you are doing.

I wager we haven’t seen the last of the Touchbar. Not by a long shot.

 

[The Mercurian]

If you can see the screen, it (more specifically, the TDC) can see you.

You know what? That is just creepy!

 

[Regime2008]

Knowing modern Apple, they have a long term goal for the touch bar. This is only the first iteration. I would guess it is full touch keyboard/interface with haptic that changes depending what you are doing.

I wager we haven’t seen the last of the Touchbar. Not by a long shot.

If it didn't work on the MBP, do you think a FULL keyboard array would sit well with users? A laptop keyboard will never replace a mechanical keyboard. A haptic touch interface keyboard will not replace a laptop keyboard, more or less a mechanical. Maybe this can change several years from now (Just like how users once thought the idea of typing on a touchscreen would never replace T9 texting), but that will be at least a handful of years away.

 

[Abazigal]

If it didn't work on the MBP, do you think a FULL keyboard array would sit well with users? A laptop keyboard will never replace a mechanical keyboard. A haptic touch interface keyboard will not replace a laptop keyboard, more or less a mechanical. Maybe this can change several years from now (Just like how users once thought the idea of typing on a touchscreen would never replace T9 texting), but that will be at least a handful of years away.

And Apple has all the time in the world.

The Apple Watch is now in its third year, and only starting to really gain traction amongst its users. It took two hardware iterations and three major software updates, but we finally getting somewhere, and Apple's endgame is beginning to take shape.

You underestimate Apple's persistence. The touchbar isn’t some one-off gimmick. We might see some revisions in response to user feedback, but I think the basic idea of the Touchbar will stick around.

 

[Minato1990]

For face ID it's not purely the camera doing the work. it's a combination of a projected "map" on your face (you can't see, it's IR) and then an IR sensor to detect where those projections are and then a combination of algorithms to learn and adapt, doing all of this based on 3d map images

if you were just using a standard camera, the camera would be trying to figure out who you are in 2d based off an image. This is not new and has been around for a long time, but it's not considered secure as it's easily beatable by photographs.

The only current solution that rivals it that I have seen is Microsoft's face unlock that is in their surface lineup that also uses an IR sensor to do 3d imaging of your face to unlock. However, just because I haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist elsewhere. As Microsoft's version has been around for a couple years now, I expect it to exist in other devices (I just haven't looked).


Alas, sadly though, MacBooks, depending on which one have some pretty crappy cameras. Heck the actual MacBook camera is low resolution as is and one of the worst cameras in notebooks today. the one in the air I believe is also still 480p. Not sure whats in the new MacBook pro's.

Welp I guess this is going to be the a future new feature on Macbook pros then lol

 

[Gameboy70]

Wow. That is scary.

Why allow anyone self-determination about their lives when they may choose an inferior option. The state should enforce the "right" choice on everyone. Why should people be allowed to choose their own careers paths are study areas, there's a right answer of what's in demand that suits their skills. Their wrong preference shouldn't matter, right? Unhealthy food should be outlawed. Non-pro sports should be outlawed (there's a non-zero chance you may get injured for a frivolous reason). Personal cars should be outlawed; a lot of drivers are dangerous, it causes traffic and environmental damage that is bad for everyone. Pretty much every choice has a "right" and "wrong" answer according to the liberal crazies, and you want to enforce it on someone.

Restricting options can be construed as political, but we’re talking about consumer products comprised of scarce resources—economic constraints as much as ecological ones. Companies like IBM and Lenovo are fine with leaving vestigial trackpoints on their keyboards despite having trackpads, just because some vocal minority would complain about their removal. For Apple, removing the older navigation option would be a no-brainer. Apple has never been shy about playing the benevolent dictator. One of Jobs’ harshest criticisms of Android is that the platform “forces the customer to be the systems integrator”. Apple removed the headphone jack because Lighting already provides audio output, so leaving a second audio-out prevents them from adding other non-redundant features—not unlike the home button.

And Jobs always said consumers have a choice: don’t buy Apple.

 

[Ntombi]

Do you have the option to just go with a passcode? I am not a fan of biometric log-on.

Of course, just like with the Touch ID iPhones, you can choose not to enable Face ID, and use a passcode, simple or complex, or no security at all.

 

[The Cappy]

I just don’t like FaceID. It looks gimmicky and far less intuitive than TouchID.

It makes a great tech demo (when it works ) but I feel like using it day to day would get old quick. Plus I do not like being unable to wake up my device without unlocking. There are going to be a host of situations faceID breaks and the solution is “oh well”.

I feel like we’ve given up a lot to get bezel free devices and I’m not sure the trade offs were worth it.

Hilarious hearing such strong opinions from people who haven’t even used a thing yet.

 

[Gameboy70]

You know what? That is just creepy!

That seems to be the executive summary of all objections from the tape-over-webcam crowd about Face ID: "iPhone X is the Eye of Sauron!"