Apple's Face ID Turns Android Makers Away From Under-Screen Fingerprint Recognition

[ApfelKuchen]

Are you complaining about the cost of the ToucID sensor? The cost of the R&D for it behind the screen? Somehow these, you believe, affect the cost of the iPhone? If so, have you noticed the most expensive iPhone doesn’t include TouchID?

Anybody could argue any component they don’t use as a waste of space and not worthy the extra cost it adds to the device.

I really don’t care what your opinions are. People will make up anything to be “right” on this topic. Apple has made their statement. We’ll see if they stay on track for the long run. If they don’t add back fingerprints, I won’t feel bad for ever wanting something different.

No, I'm not complaining about the cost of either the Touch ID sensor or the sensors used for Face ID - I think either is worth the money, for what they do.

Yes, people complain about the cost of features they personally do not use. However, I'm usually not one of them. I know that nobody uses 100% of a feature set, and that a mass-produced product needs to appeal to a wide variety of users. What matters to me is the value of those features that I do use. If Apple did include both Touch ID and Face ID in an iPhone I would not threaten to buy a Samsung.

My comments were in response to someone who contrasted a ball mouse to an optical mouse. It is an apt comparison - ball mouse and optical mouse use different technologies to achieve the same function, just as Touch ID and Face ID do. One may be superior to the other in most use cases, but some individuals may still have reasons to prefer the "inferior" technology.

My point was that it would be silly for a manufacturer to bundle both an optical mouse and a ball mouse with every computer, just to cater to the technological preference of a small part of the customer base. The vast majority of users will not care which type of mouse (or biometric ID) they get, so long as it works well. Optical mouse is by far the superior technology, so the manufacturer achieves higher customer satisfaction by supplying an optical mouse. Apple clearly believes Face ID is the superior biometric technology. Redundancy is not necessary if more users will be happy with Face ID than they currently are with Touch ID.

 

[deanthedev]

Why is it so hard for anyone to do any research?

Xiaomi MI 5s was released in July 2017 using this tech!

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.eng...vo-qualcomm-under-display-fingerprint-reader/

All this proves is the difference between Apple and everyone else. Apple doesn’t really talk much about things they’re working on. You find out when Apple releases an actual product with that specific technology.

Everyone else likes to talk about vaporware. Things they’re working on, but can’t provide a firm timeline on. Anything to keep their name out there so they can convince people they’re constantly innovating.
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Yes

just like computers. The performance benefits of a highly paralelled or highly serialized processor is going to be thoroughly dependent on usage case and the software that runs on it.

So typical from someone who will do anything to try and come up with an excuse to claim Apples processors aren’t really any better than Samsung or Qualcomm. It’s a sore point with so many people to have to face the absolute reality that Apple is years ahead of everyone else.

Your answer is wrong, BTW. Try again.

 

[ApfelKuchen]

A problem with on-device biometrics is that the manufacturer can change it at whim and/or implement it however they like. There is no consistently in quality or security. Apple randomly introducing a new biometric paradigm while cool may cause issues with Enterprises "trusting" Apple biometrics fully for authentication.

Just a thought...

Enterprise is more likely to judge on the technological merits than prejudice (which means, pre-judgement). When they have samples in their hand, Enterprise will assess Apple's claims of superiority (one-in-a-million chance of being fooled, vs one-in-50,000), and following an assessment of those claims, act accordingly.

Apple's choice of technology was not made on a whim. They had multiple technologies in the pipeline, and assessed each, on a wide variety of criteria. Those criteria, in this case, would undoubtedly include an assessment of whether the government/enterprise market would accept the change.

You say there's "no consistently (sic) in quality or security." Of course there has to be, or the manufacturer loses business. The methodology is testable, so a company that pushes out untested, unsupportable technology is just asking for trouble down the line. It is simply irrational for a company to behave in the way you suggest Apple has behaved. People may disagree with choices a company makes, but that does not mean the company is necessarily acting irrationally.

Do not confuse our (so far) lack of experience using Face ID with the quality of the research Apple put into the technology. Do not confuse the rumors surrounding the development of the iPhone X with the realities of the product development process. If you trust those rumors more than you trust Apple's statements about the development of Face ID... you're just choosing your preferred "reality."

 

[Gilligan's last elephant]

This brings up the interesting point that it’s a little more complicated. “Legacy” headphones with a 3.5mm jack do work via a lightning adapter, which means that even iPhones with no 3.5mm jack must still be doing onboard D/A decoding.

The Lightning adapter has a D/A and amp in the cable. The fact it costs $9 may give a clue to its audio quality

 

[QCassidy352]

The only spin I see are people trying desperately to trash Apple by making it appear they had to “settle” for FaceID.

BTW, your attempt to show Apple wanted to do fingerprint under the screen just because they had a patent on it is seriously flawed[...]

There were multiple reports that they wanted Touch ID under the screen and couldn't make it work. Subsequent to that, reports come out that they never wanted it anyway. You call that "trying desperately to trash Apple"; I call it being cognizant of how the narrative has changed.

re: the patent, I mentioned it as an aside. It shows that it's something Apple at least thought about. I never said it "proved" that they intended to implement that tech on the X.

How do you know they weren't able to get under-screen Touch ID working? Are you an Apple engineer who was working on the project? Or are you just taking internet rumors as gospel?

If you'd read through the rest of the thread, you'd see that I'm not taking anything as gospel - not the earlier reports, and not the current ones, either. I just find it suspicious how the narrative (from Kuo, among others) has changed in a way that just so happens to be face-saving for Apple.

 

[flat five]

From that first link:
Emphasis added (and by the way, how about that patent?)

From the second one:

yeah, i read them.. all the way through.
i sort of feel like you're moving the goal posts.. what i originally replied to was you saying:

"If the intention was always to replace Touch ID with Face ID, when did that story only leak out once it became apparent that Apple had run out of time to make Touch ID work?"​

and my point was that the above is inaccurate.. the reports about replacing touchID with faceID were out prior to Apple 'running out of time'.

We may never know for sure, but I'm sure as hell skeptical about this new narrative, which just happens to make Apple's much-maligned decision to omit Touch ID look deliberate instead of something they were forced into. Classic PR spin: we can't make it work, so we'll tell you that you never needed it anyway.

the people who have said (paraphrasing) -- faceID was always plan A.. plan B was touchID under screen.. once we got plan A working satisfactorily, plan B was no longer on the table..

..those people are the engineers who built the phone.. definitely not the PR dept and i highly doubt Apple's PR dept went to them and said 'hey, you need to lie about this for us".. if they wanted to lie about it, they'd use someone more competent at lying to the public than a bunch of engineers.

like, the people who have said they went with planA are the people who are most passionate about the project.. not the twisting-of-the-truth PR spinners... you catch my drift?

here's a little bit of a flaw with your line of thought (imo)... if faceID sucks, Apple is screwed.. royally.
if i buy a $1000 phone and the faceID doesn't work.. or i find touchID is better.. then i'm returning the phone.. me and millions of others doing the same.

it doesn't matter if some design studio engineers said 'we abandoned touchID for faceID' or it doesn't matter if 'Apple couldn't get touchID to work in time so they made FaceID" .. none of that matters.

what matters is this-- Apple is saying they feel FaceID is better and more natural and more secure than TouchID...
ok, well, they better be right..
and at this point, i have no reason to not believe them.. why? because as a consumer, i have nothing to lose by believing them.. if it turns out they're full of it then i simply get my money back.. that's my safety net-- Apple's return policy.

it'd be a different story entirely if you weren't able to return an item for full refund.. if that were the case then yes, i'd be much (much!) more weary about believing Federighi saying faceID > touchID.

 

[Dave.UK]

And it will take them years to get to something comparable.

I often feel sorry for Android users.

Apple users are only just joining the world of oLED and wireless charging!

As for FaceID - Im fine with a fingerprint scanner and headphone jack thanks
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Once again, Apple leads the way

Shame it's in the wrong direction

 

[v0lume4]

Assuming that they are able to get the technology to work, I wouldn't be surprised to see some Android device makers still try and implement the fingerprint scanner under the display. Particularly Samsung. Seeing that Samsung already has facial recognition (though not as good as FaceID) and Iris scanning, it may give them a chance to one-up Apple in a sense.

 

[flat five]

Assuming that they are able to get the technology to work, I wouldn't be surprised to see some Android device makers still try and implement the fingerprint scanner under the display. Particularly Samsung. Seeing that Samsung already has facial recognition (though not as good as FaceID) and Iris scanning, it may give them a chance to one-up Apple in a sense.

not really sure if it would be one-upping if faceID proves to be superior technology..

let's say you (and a bunch of other people) use iPhone X for 6 months.. and you find that when you go back to using your previous phone with touchID, that it seems a bit archaic to be using fingerprint identification compared to facial.

then what? how will a phone with fingerprint scanning be a one-up if you find you prefer methods other than fingerprint scanning for identification purposes?

 

[DeepIn2U]

Not really, no. And it certainly falls well short of justifying



Since the conversation is about fingerprint readers under the screen, not merely under glass which changes nothing about the experience.

LMAO seriously? A fingerprint reader under the glass or under the screen are factually different and doesn't change anything about the experience?! Like you're an engineer or a consumer that ACTUALLY has used EITHER to qualify such a statement.

Where is your research showing I ever asserted such a thing.

Check the post for which I first quoted earlier in this thread. Being obtuse or forgetful of that fact doesn't become you as being right.

FACT: no-one has shipped under display scanners and that’s all I took issue with you suggesting

So be it a fact ... but you're making so many opinions and stating them as fact in the very first place stating Apple abandoned either in the first place, and then after the rebuttal began, as above stating you had not. Both are what I'm pointing issue with you. At least own up to what you've stated. I have.

 

[Kabeyun]

The Lightning adapter has a D/A and amp in the cable. The fact it costs $9 may give a clue to its audio quality

Gotcha thx. Found this ifixit article which goes into some detail on that. Doesn’t seem to be that terrible. I’ve read some bad reviews but I’ve been happy using it with my Audio Technica M50s. (I’m not going to get into whether or not you can spend orders of magnitude more for an audiophile quality setup. If that’s one’s goal, one’s not listening to music on a iPhone or, probably, any mobile device for that matter.)
[/HIJACK]

 

[DeepIn2U]

.
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Because Apple would rather perfect it and use it for the "whole screen" rather than a small area.

I think That's the reason Apple didn't include a Taptic Engine home button on the iPhone X the way Samsung did with S8

You're STILL stating an opinion as fact and there is no specific proof to that being a fact. It's just heresey. I believe Taptic Engine is something Apple shipped with first and is included in the iPhone X. I'm not sure what you're specifically stating with the Galaxy S8 and it's implementation; are you saying theirs is just limited to the home button or directly beneath or directly integrated with the home button?

The best I can find is that SGS8 mimics in action what the Apple Watch screen does ... yet with a home button. I don't think a manufacturer would implement full screen touch fingerprint sensor ... how would they solve unlocking just by picking up the phone?

- phone is face flat on the table. You're packing things and pick up the phone and your thumb/finger either that is set to use the unlock feature is "sensed" during picking it up. You pass the phone to someone else while you grab bags or suitcases or heck even groceries ... guess what it's unlocked now. Similar to the debate about FaceID being unlocked while staring at it momentarily.

 

[PickUrPoison]

Apple’s innovation sometimes leaves behind those who are resistant to change. Some changes are great, some merely good, some even for the worse (at least from someone’s point of view; you can’t make 100% of users happy, can you?).

But you can’t freeze time and decide, I want the design of the 4S, iOS 6.1.6, the fingerprint reader from the 6, the headphone jack from the 6S, etc. That’s not real life, and 95% of users wouldn’t even agree with your “perfect iPhone” anyway.

Apple doesn’t owe you anything, least of all your ideal iPhone—sorry for the harsh dose of reality, but it’s true. Apple tries their best to deliver the greatest product for users and their requirements, while satisfying shareholders who have a different set of requirements. A perfect example of capitalism in action.

If Apple “loses its way” and becomes an also-ran, they’ve blown it. But for the concern trolls who fear this may eventually happen—or rather, state with undue authority it already has happened —don’t hold your breath. But do continue to spew here on MacRumors, where passionate Apple fans will do their best to use logic and facts to set you right. Unfortunately, you’re immune to both. But you receive the attention you crave.

 

[v0lume4]

not really sure if it would be one-upping if faceID proves to be superior technology..

let's say you (and a bunch of other people) use iPhone X for 6 months.. and you find that when you go back to using your previous phone with touchID, that it seems a bit archaic to be using fingerprint identification compared to facial.

then what? how will a phone with fingerprint scanning be a one-up if you find you prefer methods other than fingerprint scanning for identification purposes?

I'm just talking more along the lines of offering users the choice. You read the responses on this forum and you'd be convinced that no one is going to purchase the iPhone X, solely for it's lack of fingerprint sensor.

If you want my personal opinion, those complaining about the lack of fingerprint sensor are the vocal minority, and even they will probably change their minds once they try FaceID for the first time. I think it was Steve Jobs or Jony Ive that said something along the lines of, "We want the technology to disappear into the background." That's exactly what FaceID is. With TouchID, you had to deliberately put your finger on the fingerprint sensor. With FaceID, you literally don't have to do anything, yet your phone is unlocked because it's you. However, no one else can use your device. That's pretty incredible.

Now, bringing things back around -- I wouldn't be surprised to see Samsung offering a fingerprint scanner underneath the display next year. However, I don't think Apple will be going that route. Once Apple drops a technology, they are reluctant to bring it back. The question is, for how long will Samsung continue to offer a fingerprint sensor in the years following their under-display solution?

 

[Minato1990]

Would be nice if face id could be part of Macbooks I mean we have good enough cameras no?

 

[LordVic]

All this proves is the difference between Apple and everyone else. Apple doesn’t really talk much about things they’re working on. You find out when Apple releases an actual product with that specific technology.

Everyone else likes to talk about vaporware. Things they’re working on, but can’t provide a firm timeline on. Anything to keep their name out there so they can convince people they’re constantly innovating.
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So typical from someone who will do anything to try and come up with an excuse to claim Apples processors aren’t really any better than Samsung or Qualcomm. It’s a sore point with so many people to have to face the absolute reality that Apple is years ahead of everyone else.

Your answer is wrong, BTW. Try again.

you're wrong BTW

Apple's Processors are the best. I never denied that. Give me 3 Apple cores over 8 samsung cores.

But that wasn't your question. your question is, what is the best layout, single core performance or multicore. And that's not cut and dry answer. It heavily depends on the load.

For example, I'll take Apple's very fast cores for single threaded and single purpose tasks any day over ARMs' more paralell based CPU's.

However, if I'm needing to do a lot of multi-tasking where I want multiple programs working as efficiently as possible. More cores is actually better.

but it's a trade off. If you've got the same power envelope for both types of designs. You have to make trade offs. For Apple, it generally means lower core count, but much faster cores. For ARM, it tends to mean slower individual cores, but more cores overall.

This is the same argument that gets hammared through all the time in the desktop realm as well. Given a power envelope that is the same, is it better to have 4 super fast threads? or 8 medium fast threads? there's no right answer as it always depends on the workload.

 

[Gilligan's last elephant]

Gotcha thx. Found this ifixit article which goes into some detail on that. Doesn’t seem to be that terrible. I’ve read some bad reviews but I’ve been happy using it with my Audio Technica M50s. (I’m not going to get into whether or not you can spend orders of magnitude more for an audiophile quality setup. If that’s one’s goal, one’s not listening to music on a iPhone or, probably, any mobile device for that matter.)
[/HIJACK]

Audio performance with Sony flagships is high quality.
My main mobile system is a Fiio X3. Not a phone, but high quality music player and DAC for my laptop. Apple and quality audio is an oxymoron.

 

[LordVic]

Would be nice if face id could be part of Macbooks I mean we have good enough cameras no?

For face ID it's not purely the camera doing the work. it's a combination of a projected "map" on your face (you can't see, it's IR) and then an IR sensor to detect where those projections are and then a combination of algorithms to learn and adapt, doing all of this based on 3d map images

if you were just using a standard camera, the camera would be trying to figure out who you are in 2d based off an image. This is not new and has been around for a long time, but it's not considered secure as it's easily beatable by photographs.

The only current solution that rivals it that I have seen is Microsoft's face unlock that is in their surface lineup that also uses an IR sensor to do 3d imaging of your face to unlock. However, just because I haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist elsewhere. As Microsoft's version has been around for a couple years now, I expect it to exist in other devices (I just haven't looked).


Alas, sadly though, MacBooks, depending on which one have some pretty crappy cameras. Heck the actual MacBook camera is low resolution as is and one of the worst cameras in notebooks today. the one in the air I believe is also still 480p. Not sure whats in the new MacBook pro's.

 

[BruceEBonus]

Apple users are only just joining the world of oLED and wireless charging!

As for FaceID - Im fine with a fingerprint scanner and headphone jack thanks
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Shame it's in the wrong direction

Succinctly summarises my thoughts exactly. Ignorance is bliss. Apple do well from their glory days. When a mobile phone was called an iPhone for sheer popularity reasons. People aren't really buying them to be one step ahead. They'd be disappointed if they did. It's the ecosystem which in its time was by far the best. And still works today. But it's no longer the 'just works' ecosystem it was and has become bloated and complex over the years. So it's still Apple. The old casings and styling of the 8 models prove that. But to state that Apple are the trend setters or market leaders in design shows a complete lack of familiarity of how much the competition has moved on. And it has.

Having said all that I have to upgrade my S6 this month and my options are the Google Pixel 2, the Samsung S8, the Note 8 or the iPhone 8 plus. The latter is pointless and is dated in looks already so will look even more dated in 2 years. The Pixel is an unknown quantity and again like the Apple could be a bit of a passé item in a couple of years hence. The S8 is modern and stylish and beautiful to look at but will the screen be too easily damaged. And the Note looks even more eye catching immediately but too big and a mini tablet? The possible final option is the iPhone X. But it's no more ground breaking than the Note. Less in fact. But at least has bezel less usability like the Note. But that price. It's too much for no more. Less ports ... less features and agin. Two years time?.

And do we really use the new 2017 phones' potentials to justify £700-£1000 extra on top of your monthly talk plan. Could you not get away with keeping the old one. Of course! But desire and envy always win the day over common sense. I shall see when I venture forth into the clutches of the O2 store .

 

[Newtons Apple]

Apple is a trend setter.

We will see how much of a trend setter they are when the deliver these to the public. This is a huge risk for Apple and it is already causing delays and production problems. We shall see

 

[Jax44]

I have nothing against Face ID as such in terms of how it works. It is more the fact that it basically requires "the notch", which results in a smaller phone footprint to useful screen size ratio, and that for me at least is a significant negative. Touch ID under the screen would enable all of the screen to be used.

Where would the front facing camera and speaker go?.

 

[deanthedev]

you're wrong BTW

Apple's Processors are the best. I never denied that. Give me 3 Apple cores over 8 samsung cores.

But that wasn't your question. your question is, what is the best layout, single core performance or multicore. And that's not cut and dry answer. It heavily depends on the load.

No, that wasn’t my question at all. Perhaps you need to re-read what I said. I asked what is better - a single fast core or two slower cores. And my question was to directed to another poster who previously stated: “I don’t believe in the alleged superiority of the Apple processors.” An absolutely outlandish claim to make.

 

[Kabeyun]

Audio performance with Sony flagships is high quality.
My main mobile system is a Fiio X3. Not a phone, but high quality music player and DAC for my laptop. Apple and quality audio is an oxymoron.

I think that’s a little harsh for a variety of reasons, and you’ve certainly demonstrated that your definition of “quality” is not average, since you’re the sort of consumer who carries around both a Fiio and a phone, and who has even heard about using a DAC for a laptop. (Funny that the Chinese designed the Fiio X3 to resemble an iPod.) Maybe it isn’t reasonable to expect more than “broadly satisfactory” audio from a smartphone.

 

[Regime2008]

I think that’s a little harsh for a variety of reasons, and you’ve certainly demonstrated that your definition of “quality” is not average, since you’re the sort of consumer who carries around both a Fiio and a phone, and who has even heard about using a DAC for a laptop. (Funny that the Chinese designed the Fiio X3 to resemble an iPod.) Maybe it isn’t reasonable to expect more than “broadly satisfactory” audio from a smartphone.

That has to do with progression. You would imagine that once a teen gets their first car, their next vehicle should be an upgrade. Moving from your first apartment, into a home, should be an upgrade. Apple removed the headphone jack, so you would imagine that their wireless airpods, should be an upgrade in audio quality, not a downgrade. Just like how many feel FaceID will be a downgrade compared to TouchID.

 

[Kabeyun]

That has to do with progression. You would imagine that once a teen gets their first car, their next vehicle should be an upgrade. Moving from your first apartment, into a home, should be an upgrade. Apple removed the headphone jack, so you would imagine that their wireless airpods, should be an upgrade in audio quality, not a downgrade. Just like how many feel FaceID will be a downgrade compared to TouchID.

I understand the psychology (I’m driving an Audi instead of my old Corolla). But the consensus is that AirPod quality is certainly no worse, and in most opinions superior that the [edit. lousy] earbuds we’ve been given for years. As soon as I see results of a double blind test comparing iPhone audio from a 3.5mm jack vs a lightning adapter, I’ll concede that point. If it’s out there, please post.

As to FaceID, I put no stock in those feelings until they’ve, you know, tried it. The same folks who were horrified with TouchID are probably the same as those who are now terrified to live without it. And then as now, skeptics abound. We crave innovation but shiver when we get it. We shall see...