Apple's Greg Joswiak: No Plans to Merge Mac and iPad

[gnasher729]

YOU're asking me to engineer the thing right now in a paragraph? And if I don't then my point doesn't stand? That doesn't make any sense.

IF you can boot up to Windows on a Mac. Then an Ipad Pro can boot into and run MacOS.


And obviously running MacOS would be virtually the same as running it on a Mac Mini if both were connected to a monitor/m/k.

HOw awkward would it be to switch between iOS and MacOS etc is besides the pt.

Remember MacOS has had an iPhone simulator for many years, as every iOS developer knows. No reason why an iPhone or iPad can’t have a MacOS simulator.

 

[hans1972]

You can run Windows on a Mac. The only reason you “can’t” run Windows on a PC is because of the EULA.

I'm not talking about that.

Are Windows and macOS artificial divides? No, people would say there are real differences between them and that's why someone prefers Windows over macOS and vice versa.

No one would make the argument that since Windows and MacOS ran for 15 years on the same Intel platform that they were essentially the same. Most would argue there were huge differences.

The software is much more important to how you experience a computer than the hardware.

 

[hans1972]

No reason why an iPhone or iPad can’t have a MacOS simulator.

I know at least one reason: Apple.

 

[Vasilisxd]

Touch interfaces are the future for like the past 10 years.
Apple should change the MacOS to be much more finger friendly and eventually merge those two into one touch device with keyboard and mouse.
The hardware is there , now Apple should push developers for that change.

 

[arzola]

 

[trifid]

Steve Jobs denied a touchscreen Mac in 2010, one year before he died.

11 years later there are still no touchsceeen Macs.

Indeed, we might have seen the integration earlier if he were still around. He got things done quickly.

Another example of why Apple can't be trusted with the lame excuses they give:

Phil Schiller dismissed inductive charging explaining in 2012 “Having to create another device you have to plug into the wall is actually, for most situations, more complicated."

Almost 10 years after the first iPhone, Apple introduced basic inductive charging. Palm Pre had inductive charging as early as 2009.

So yea a decade can go by, Apple's excuses are just that, excuses to buy time.

 

[Shirasaki]

Sure, they could create an iPad mode that runs atop macOS and make a Mac look (and behave) like an iPad. But there are a number of problems with that:

1. Given that the only file system access in iPadOS and thus this iPad mode is the On-My-iPad section (and iCloud) if you wanted to have access to a file in both Mac and iPad mode, they would all need to live inside those two folders (and both those folders by default would have a folder for every app that stores user accessible files). Essentially, you would impose the file storage limitations of iPadOS to your macOS usage or don't have access to all your files while in iPad mode.
2. There will be plenty of settings which can be changed in Mac mode that aren't accessible in iPad mode (and to a lesser degree also vice versa). This causes two problems: a) you might have to regularly switch modes to change a setting and b) in iPad mode you are running a system that supposedly behaves like an iPad but in reality doesn't because there a lot of things that can be modified in Mac mode but that in pure iPadOS cannot.
3. All the security and not-being-able-to-screw-things-up aspects of iPadOS (or more generally iOS) are somewhat compromised. Because even if the UI in iPad mode looks and behaves exactly like on a current iPad (which already isn't really a given, see point (2) above), the underpinnings in terms of file permissions and other things really aren't like on an iPad. This would be like adding a third kind of user account to macOS: admin, user & 'restricted user', that alone wouldn't make a Mac as foolproof as iOS devices are.

The whole idea is a bit like adding a mode to iPads that gives you full file access (as the internal development tools Apple uses most likely do in some way). To allow users that on a current iPad (which would be like switching to Mac mode on a hybrid device) not only adds security risks. It also enables users to screw up the functioning of their iPad.

None of those you mentioned here will be a problem for macOS user base and iOS user base in general. All Apple needs to do is dumb down macOS into a glorified version of iOS, with no system file access, no terminal and such. Within a year or two, people will get used to a macOS with no such feature and still can perform their regular workflow. Since macOS has no admin access, security would be boosted drastically. Setting wise, just unify both iPadOS and macOS. Ezpz.
I really don’t see a major problem merging both platforms.

 

[Shirasaki]

There are three major aspects currently separating the Mac and the iPad: cooling, sandboxing, and windowing UI. Let's consider each of these in turn.

Cooling: Even with the M1, it's not going to be solved for the iPad without making it noisy and heavier to the point that degrades its usability as a tablet. In general, no matter how efficient you make your CPU, you can always get more performance by running more of them faster and at least high-end Macs will continue to want that. Not necessarily Macbooks though.

Sandboxing: Application sandboxing is becoming more of a thing everywhere in computing. Ubuntu's Snaps are one prominent example, and Homebrew is a limited example on the Mac. And MacOS has been increasingly sandboxing the system as well. That leaves the user's files. In iOS Files has been making strides in opening up here, so it's not impossible to imagine that they could meet in the middle.

Windowing: Here again there have been convergent steps in both directions, with iPadOS multitasking and Mac full-screen modes. But the gap is still quite a large one, depending on the user. Many users even today use their PCs and Macs almost always in full-screen mode for one app or another. On the other hand you have users who like to use windows and spatial organization and feel harshly confined on the iPad. Being in the latter group, I hope Apple finds a way to expand windowing capabilities in iOS. If nothing else it would make the experience of using an external display on an iPad through a dock much more reasonable.

However, since none of these are insurmountable and trends beyond just Apple are all moving in the same direction, Apple will likely continue to converge the platforms as they've been doing, and then one day will, for example, phase out Macbooks once iOS has come far enough. (And yes, I think it likely iOS will "win" - - it's newer, cleaner, more efficient, more widely used and developed for, and still shares the same core unix kernel as MacOS.)

EDIT: I left out touch vs mouse interface on purpose. Apple's already made a lot of progress converging here, both making touch apps work with a mouse for Catalyst, and promoting trackpads and gestures on the Mac. There will always be apps where one or the other interface works better, but that will be the whole point of the converged device: use a mouse OR touch wherever it's more suitable.

Well, nothing much can be done for cooling on iPad. It has to be passively cooled. But MacBook Air nowadays have no cooling either, so really, iPad can be a dual form factor MacBook Air with fewer ports, leaving MacBook Pro and desktop Mac to have proper cooling system. Heck, I strongly believe Apple hates cooling fan with a passion. Despite the inability to defy physics, when M chip is powerful enough, or on-chip cooling becomes feasible, fans can be eliminated and chip can cool itself.
As for sandbox and security, the solution is very simple: dumb down macOS so it more or less behaves like iOS, while improve iPadOS to let it able to behave more or less like macOS. The way I see it, Apple can just force a merge and let user eat the losses, since legacy support was and will never be on the table of apples development agenda. I would not be surprised when Apple suddenly announce a brand new platform that is completely incompatible with old platform and let devs to develop apps for it. I’m actually surprised Apple did not just cut off Intel support and offer no transition whatsoever.

 

[hans1972]

Indeed, we might have seen the integration earlier if he were still around. He got things done quickly.

Another example of why Apple can't be trusted with the lame excuses they give:

Phil Schiller dismissed inductive charging explaining in 2012 “Having to create another device you have to plug into the wall is actually, for most situations, more complicated."

Almost 10 years after the first iPhone, Apple introduced basic inductive charging. Palm Pre had inductive charging as early as 2009.

So yea a decade can go by, Apple's excuses are just that, excuses to buy time.

In 2012 Schiller said: "Having to create another device you have to plug into the wall is actually, for most situations, more complicated".

It was not as clear a denial that Apple wouldn't go for wireless charging as an option.

Regardless, it took five years after that statement before Apple released an iPhone with wireless charging capability.

When it comes to touchscreen Macs, Apple has almost yearly, and sometimes semi-annually, for 11 years denied that they have plans to support touchscreens for Macs and macOS.

So which year do you think we will see the first Mac with touchscreen support?

 

[trifid]

In 2012 Schiller said: "Having to create another device you have to plug into the wall is actually, for most situations, more complicated".

It was not as clear a denial that Apple wouldn't go for wireless charging as an option.

Regardless, it took five years after that statement before Apple released an iPhone with wireless charging capability.

When it comes to touchscreen Macs, Apple has almost yearly, and sometimes semi-annually, for 11 years denied that they have plans to support touchscreens for Macs and macOS.

So which year do you think we will see the first Mac with touchscreen support?

The number of years doesn't matter, Apple has a history of dismissing things or making excuses and then doing the exact opposite. Here's another great example 'Steve Jobs Totally Dissed the Stylus 8 Years Before Apple Pencil'

It's a great business strategy, my point is not to get worked over something Apple says.

With regards to touch macs, we are seeing a lot of things converging, M1 is now used on both platforms and Big Sur's revamped UI makes it more touch-friendly, plus it can run iOS apps natively, and developers are getting a chance to optimize their iOS apps for cursor.

EDIT: iPad's magic keyboard has a trackpad, so developers can optimize cursor support, another sign of convergence.

 

[usagora]

This is an artificial divide, honestly. They are literally the same machines now. My MacBook Air is an iPad without the touch screen.

iPad doesn't run macOS. Sort of a MAJOR difference there. To me it's a completely different experience.

 

[NT1440]

The number of years doesn't matter, Apple has a history of dismissing things or making excuses and then doing the exact opposite. Here's another great example 'Steve Jobs Totally Dissed the Stylus 8 Years Before Apple Pencil'

It's a great business strategy, my point is not to get worked over something Apple says.

With regards to touch macs, we are seeing a lot of things converging, M1 is now used on both platforms and Big Sur's revamped UI makes it more touch-friendly, plus it can run iOS apps natively, and developers are getting a chance to optimize their iOS apps for cursor.

EDIT: iPad's magic keyboard has a trackpad, so developers can optimize cursor support, another sign of convergence.

You cite the pencil, without acknowledging that the disdain for the the stylus was it was the PRIMARY input for those devices. The Apple Pencil is not that, it will never be the primary input for any Apple device. That’s a MASSIVE difference.

I don’t know why so many here keep trying to will this convergence into existence. Apple is hellbent on offering the appropriate UX for the form factor, that’s the ENTIRE point of iPadOS becoming its own OS. We’ll see the *beginning* of that distinction this year at WWDC. A company like Apple doesn’t make that change without a 3-5 year roadmap, this was not a Willy nilly decision.

 

[trifid]

I don’t know why so many here keep trying to will this convergence into existence.

It's not just a desire from the user base, it's not just pressure from competitors (recent Intel/Microsoft ads come to mind), it's what's visible in plain sight.

There are too many UI/UX changes in Big Sur that scream convergence. And also the fact iOS apps can now be used on macOS and allows developers to add cursor input. And M1 convergence. And magic keyboard on iPad hardware adds cursor input as well, and developers are optimizing for it on the iOS side as well.

And I'm still waiting for someone to explain the obscene amount of spacing added in Big Sur which has no other explanation than touch-friendly design for future convergence.

 

[trifid]

Apple is hellbent on offering the appropriate UX for the form factor, that’s the ENTIRE point of iPadOS becoming its own OS.

100% agreed, but I think we are reaching maturity, it's hard to believe but iPad OS has been around for about 10 years, I can see convergence now, especially since iOS hardware is severely being bottlenecked by the OS, convergence could open up its potential. Similarly on the Mac side, touch/pencil can add a lot to the platform.

 

[Bluetoot-]

iPad doesn't run macOS. Sort of a MAJOR difference there. To me it's a completely different experience.

Wow that’s a MAJOR oversight on my part! I had no idea. 🙄 lol

I’ve addressed a number of other posters about this: besides the touch-oriented UX and the fact that it’s locked down, there’s not as much difference between iPadOS and macOS these days.

These OS’s will be the same one day. It’s all a marketing scheme to sell hardware.
Microsoft saw this coming and they tried to jump the gun. Unfortunately, Windows is STILL held back by legacy uses and it has crippled the OS. Windows 10 just doesn’t translate to touch like it should.

 

[smulji]

Wow that’s a MAJOR oversight on my part! I had no idea. 🙄 lol

I’ve addressed a number of other posters about this: besides the touch-oriented UX and the fact that it’s locked down, there’s not as much difference between iPadOS and macOS these days.

These OS’s will be the same one day. It’s all a marketing scheme to sell hardware.
Microsoft saw this coming and they tried to jump the gun. Unfortunately, Windows is STILL held back by legacy uses and it has crippled the OS. Windows 10 just doesn’t translate to touch like it should.

At best, I think what you’ll see is the macOS shell come to iPadOS.

 

[jonblatho]

It's not just a desire from the user base, it's not just pressure from competitors (recent Intel/Microsoft ads come to mind), it's what's visible in plain sight.

There are too many UI/UX changes in Big Sur that scream convergence. And also the fact iOS apps can now be used on macOS and allows developers to add cursor input. And M1 convergence. And magic keyboard on iPad hardware adds cursor input as well, and developers are optimizing for it on the iOS side as well.

And I'm still waiting for someone to explain the obscene amount of spacing added in Big Sur which has no other explanation than touch-friendly design for future convergence.

View attachment 1763024

Nonsense. The "spacing for touch interface" is nowhere near Apple’s specification for touch control hit areas (recommended minimum 44 pt × 44 pt). Neither are the "touch-ready" sliders in Control Center to which you’re pointing.

Edited to add link.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Indeed, we might have seen the integration earlier if he were still around. He got things done quickly.

No, not integration. Just like Steve Jobs dumped FC7 users, and like he dumped so many products when he came back to Apple, Mr. “I would milk the Macintosh for all it's worth – and get busy on the next great thing.” would have done exactly that. He DID get busy on the next great thing and that thing sells more units per year than macOS ever will.

 

[Janichsan]

Merge no...make a device that can run both OS depending on the current setup....

One device that is both Mac and iPad? That would be merging the Mac and iPad...

 

[trifid]

Nonsense. The "spacing for touch interface" is nowhere near Apple’s specification for touch control hit areas (recommended minimum 44 pt × 44 pt). Neither are the "touch-ready" sliders in Control Center to which you’re pointing.

Edited to add link.

What are you talking about? The spacing is exactly the same as iOS, here are some quick screenshots from Keynote in iOS and Apple's Photo app. These examples aren't isolated, the spacing is pervasive on the entire system.

And the sliders are touch friendly as well, here's another example of sliders in iOS, the diameter of the touch control is the exact same one in Big Sur.

I'm not the only one noticing this: https://www.reconnectly.com/macos-big-sur-future-touchscreen-mac-ipad/

 

[Habib1421]

The hardware is same

 

[areudum]

What are you talking about? The spacing is exactly the same as iOS, here are some quick screenshots from Keynote in iOS and Apple's Photo app. These examples aren't isolated, the spacing is pervasive on the entire system.



View attachment 1763034
View attachment 1763033

And the sliders are touch friendly as well, here's another example of sliders in iOS, the diameter of the touch control is the exact same one in Big Sur.

View attachment 1763035


I'm not the only one noticing this: https://www.reconnectly.com/macos-big-sur-future-touchscreen-mac-ipad/

i dunno man, it just seems like youve been overthinking it.

Everyone is hellbent on ignoring the actual arguments for why it would be the century‘s worst idea to add macOS on the ipad.

at this point most has been covered? no?
-hardware, support years for previous ipads, heating issues(without a stand its going to be a nono), device(touch vs deviceinput) compatability, lockdown opens but increased safety goes byebye, software issues and a surefire complete user disaster, when developers decide to save time by not making apps that can run natively on ipad as a touch device.

for 2-1 we have something called lenovo yoga, or HP pavillion etc. and they work fine.. as laptops!

This is a tablet. get it over with. dream for a better ipadOS made just for ipad, not some halfassed macOS.
this is how you ruin the user experience. glad you guys arent apple jeez.

on that note, im outta this commentsection, see you guys in the next one.

 

[Analog Kid]

For Xcode - doesn't exist on iPad.
For Final Cut Pro - doesn't exist on iPad.
For multitasking many apps - doesn't work like that on iPad.
For Photoshop incl. Adobe RAW - there isn't real proper Photoshop on iPad.

Do I really need to list them all?

For the Apps I use on iPad I haven't needed more than 4GB yet. Maybe an upgrade to 6 would be nice. Hell even 8 if it's free. I mean why not. But I don't get why people would pay $$$ to get 16GB RAM (and 1 or 2TB SSD) if it isn't used by any apps out there.

You realize the OS isn't what's necessary for any of those apps, right? They're all possible on iPad, and likely don't exist because of the memory limitations. Those limitations are gone. I run Juno (a Jupyter Notebook app for iPad) and periodically get memory errors, those would be less common with more memory. Multitasking is limited by the ability to hold state in memory (or swap to disk).

You don't need MacOS to do these things.

 

[manu chao]

I don’t know why so many here keep trying to will this convergence into existence.

It’s a certain mindset that likes to make bold proclamations without wanting to bother with a more subtler discussion.

 

[manu chao]

For the Apps I use on iPad I haven't needed more than 4GB yet. Maybe an upgrade to 6 would be nice. Hell even 8 if it's free. I mean why not. But I don't get why people would pay $$$ to get 16GB RAM (and 1 or 2TB SSD) if it isn't used by any apps out there.

Can I read that last sentence to also mean that there aren’t any apps for iPad that could make good use of 1 or 2 TB of storage?