Apple's Nokia Deal Could Cost Android Manufacturers Too

[macnisse]

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Here we go again... Anyone knows just how big is Apple's legal dept? maybe the whole top floor of the new "mothership" building will be needed to house all these busy busy lawyers?!

 

[iStudentUK]

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Here we go again... Anyone knows just how big is Apple's legal dept? maybe the whole top floor of the new "mothership" building will be needed to house all these busy busy lawyers?!

That's the modern business world! Lawyers everywhere!

 

[gkpm]

There is plenty of evidance to suggest that the other major players licences the patents.

1.) It is part of the global standard.
2.) 40 or more companies licences it.
3.) Other major players like LG, Samsung Motorola, HTC, Sony ect have not been sued and they have all been making phones a hell of a lot longer than Apple.

Not exactly true, that's what Nokia is saying in that 2009 PR. But there's more.

Back in March when Nokia filed their second round of complaints they said "The seven Nokia patents in the new complaint relate to Nokia's pioneering innovations that are now being used by Apple to create key features in its products in the areas of multi-tasking operating systems, data synchronization, positioning, call quality and the use of Bluetooth accessories."

http://press.nokia.com/2011/03/29/nokia-files-second-itc-complaint-against-apple/

So there may be more going on. It's not just GSM, UMTS and Wlan stuff you are saying now.

 

[Oletros]

Not exactly true, that's what Nokia is saying now, but they are being economic with the truth.

So there may be more going on. It's not just GSM, UMTS and Wlan stuff they are saying now.

Ejem, GSM, UMTS and Wlan patents were said in 2.009, not now.

 

[odedia]

And Android still has to face the Java lawsuit that might wipe them out.

I am sure many people can't wait.

As someone who heard a lecture on this from Oracle, I can tell you that it is a very serious and perhaps rightful lawsuit on Oracle's side. Java's promise and specification demand is "write once, run anywhere", and Google just ignored that. They also didn't license Java, which is required on a mobile device.

 

[gkpm]

That's the modern business world! Lawyers everywhere!

Modern world? The computer industry has been like that since forever.

Oldest one I can remember was the Compaq vs IBM over the PC BIOS many still use these days, but I'm sure there were others before them.

Everything in this industry seems born out of litigation.

 

[theBB]

You really need to keep track of what is pro Apple / anti Apple opinion, and what is fact. Fact is that Nokia has about 800 patents that anyone making phone calls over GSM will need to license. Totally unavoidable. Apple vs. Nokia was never about whether Apple had to pay or not, it was always about _how much_ Apple had to pay. And it is totally unavoidable that Android phone makers will have to pay as well.

Agreed. Apple did not claim that they did not need to license anything from Nokia. It just said Nokia was asking for too much. Actually, I believe it said Nokia was asking for some of their iPhone patents that they did not want to share and it was not a fair deal, as other companies were not expected to pay with such high value patents of their own. Apple's press release states that they managed to settle without giving up on these valuable patents of its own. This may be true and it actually makes sense, as Nokia is not in the business of developing mobile operating systems any more. Nokia's financial situation is not as good as it used to be, so cash payment may be more valuable than some patents that it may never use.

 

[Oletros]

They also didn't license Java, which is required on a mobile device.

On a mobile device the required license was JavaME, not Java.

 

[gkpm]

Ejem, GSM, UMTS and Wlan patents were said in 2.009, not now.

Sorry I meant the patents shown in that link that was posted here, as proof that other companies had licensed the patents.

There's more areas in the whole folio of patents than just network stuff.

 

[Oletros]

Sorry I meant the patents shown in that link that was posted here, as proof that other companies had licensed the patents.

There's more areas in the whole folio of patents than just network stuff.

No, the original filing was about only network stuff.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

Not exactly true, that's what Nokia is saying in that 2009 PR, but they are being economic with the truth.

Back in March when Nokia filed their second round of complaints they said "The seven Nokia patents in the new complaint relate to Nokia's pioneering innovations that are now being used by Apple to create key features in its products in the areas of multi-tasking operating systems, data synchronization, positioning, call quality and the use of Bluetooth accessories."

http://press.nokia.com/2011/03/29/nokia-files-second-itc-complaint-against-apple/

So there may be more going on. It's not just GSM, UMTS and Wlan stuff you are saying now.

that explains why it is over 40 companies. So yet again fails to address the point.

Noticed something about those cell phone from the majors players have been able to do all that stuff long before Apple entered the market.

 

[gkpm]

No, the original filing was about only network stuff.

But the updated suit, which included the 7 added patents included more than just network stuff.

These have now all been licensed by the new agreement. Correct?

 

[Rodimus Prime]

It's more like Germany's oldest oak tree is planted right on the grave of Florian Müller's credibility.

well I had never heard of the guy before so I was not going to say that. Other wise I would of said he killed off what ever credibility he had left. I was trying to be nice.

 

[kdarling]

“Apple and Nokia have agreed to drop all of our current lawsuits and enter into a license covering some of each other’s patents, but not the majority of the innovation that makes the iPhone unique,” Apple said. - NY Times

I would sure love to know what smartphone patents Apple gave up. My guess would be minor, but nice to have, items like the rubberbanding at the end of a screen.

I also wonder how much Apple's desire to buy the Nortel cell patents had to do with this decision to pay Nokia. Is Apple trying to show the government that they know how to play nice with others when it comes to patent licensing?

 

[Oletros]

But the updated suit, which included the 7 added patents included more than just network stuff.

These have now all been licensed by the new agreement. Correct?

No, there is no an updated suit, there is ANOTHER suit.

So, no, it's not correct.

But the original question you facd was about ESENTIAL patents, so, do you still think other companies like Motorola, Samsung or HTC doesn't have any license?

And, wait, do you think Nokia doesn't have licensed anything from Motorola?

 

[ghostface147]

That's an old pic of Steve.

 

[gkpm]

No, there is no an updated suit, there is ANOTHER suit.

So, no, it's not correct.

But the original question you facd was about ESENTIAL patents, so, do you still think other companies like Motorola, Samsung or HTC doesn't have any license?

And, wait, do you think Nokia doesn't have licensed anything from Motorola?

So it is another suit. But has now been settled in one go with the original suit. So Apple is now licensed for all patents, both the network stuff in the original suit and these 7 extra covering other fields.

Is that better?

My original question was for proof that other manufacturers had already licensed the same patents as Apple, which would disprove Florian Mueller story.

So far I've only seen a tiny hint in Nokia PR - far from proof - that some 40 unknown companies may have licensed patents covered in the original suit, ie the network stuff.

But nothing at all about the patents in this later one.

 

[Oletros]

So it is another suit. But has now been settled in one go with the original suit. So Apple is now licensed for all patents, both the network stuff in the original suit and these 7 extra covering other fields.

Is that better?

My original question was for proof that other manufacturers had already licensed the same patents as Apple, which would disprove Florian Mueller story.

So far I've only seen a tiny hint in Nokia PR - far from proof - that they may have licensed patents covered in the original suit, ie the network stuff.

But nothing at all about the patents in this later one.

No, Apple doesn't have licensed ALL the Nokia patents.

Do you really want to know or do you have a dogmatic opinion and when you doesn't have the reason do you change the question?

Last answer, it's better to talk to a stone.

 

[ModerateFKR]

Finnish brick maker Nokia just got a $608 million cash injection from Apple. Whilst this looks like a victory for Nokia and a defeat for Apple, it's neither.

Per unit sale it's peanuts for Apple and a large cash boost for Nokia. But it won't help Nokia and Apple won't miss it. Long term, all that's happening is that Apple are paying for the intellectual property owned by Nokia that Apple have already been using for about 4 years - without paying for it!

If Apple, who can afford to argue for years and years if they want to [see previous Apple corp saga], decide to end a dispute, you can bet two things, it wasn't worth fighting, and Apple came out on top.

So, to arrive at that per unit sale price/hit Apple is experiencing, divide $608 million by the total number of iPhone sales. The result will be cents.

Nokia will put that $608 million into R&D, come up with more bricks and continue to fail as a smart phone manufacturer.

 

[gkpm]

No, Apple doesn't have licensed ALL the Nokia patents.

Do you really want to know or do you have a dogmatic opinion and when you doesn't have the reason do you change the question?

Last answer, it's better to talk to a stone.

Where did I say licensed for ALL Nokia patents? Read my post again "Apple is now licensed for all patents, both the network stuff in the original suit and these 7 extra covering other fields."

So obviously only the patents covered in the suits.

Have you got me confused with another user?

My original question, unedited:

"But I'm curious now, first you say "it's safe to bet that the other manufactures were already paying the for the patents", but then make it seem that's a certain thing?

Can you actually prove the others have licensed these patents?"

Thank you for your valuable contributions, but feel free to abstain from answering my questions if you only have petty criticism for them and no real answers.

 

[ShiftyPig]

Did Jordan Golson get plucked from the forums to write articles? I've never seen such blatant fanboy crap on the front page.

 

[spacemanspifff]

We have a winner

OK so Nokia won... ...or did they? Sure, they finally got Apple to pay up for using their patents all these years and in the process they cross licensed some stuff from Apple too.

Now in my opinion, the interesting subtext here is not about Apple having to pay Nokia, everyone knew that was on the cards, but that Nokia have cross licensed some Apple patented stuff. See where I'm going? This puts a very large weight behind Apples case in going after all the Android boys to licence their tech too! So by the time all the other manufacturers start paying Apple like Nokia is now going to do, then Apple will probably not loose anything financially from this one.

I imagine a dark room full of Apple lawyers all laughing maniacally as El Steevo enters throwing his hands up and saying "Well done my pets, they played right into our hands" Whoooo ha ha haa haaaaaa!!

 

[John Dillinger]

Lol

Im sorry but what a complete joke!

This is of course assuming that they arent already paying for licensing GSM tech?? Seeing as the majority of android manufacturers have been making phones waaaay longer than Apple, I think this a given.

P.S I think in Apple's own wording lies the clue: "not much of what makes the iPhone unique"............

......If Android is such a clone.. (and they are definitely getting more similar with each year ) of iOS.. and the patents licensed in question are less to do with iOS.. and more to do with a basic phone function, which fair enough Nokia DOES own... well you have your answer. Nokia winning this changes nothing for who are most likely already payees!

Please remember, prior to Apple, Nokia were the big boys in phones (worldwide at least). There's no way your LGs, samsungs etc were making phones ALL THOSE YEARS without paying their dues. No fricking way.

Further.. havent people been screaming all along that Apple wanted to pay... just that Apple was unhappy with Nokia asking them to pay more than everyone else to license them (because they didnt contribute as much to the pool)??? The others are already paying for the licenses!

Seriously why havent Nokia sued the others for the same patents? Its not like their scared of suing multiple entities. Dont companies usually go for the lower hanging fruit ie. companies with less deep pockets than the richest tech company, who has the resources to drag the case out for a (comparative) eternity? (like Apple going after HTC instead of Google directly).

Lastly if you think logically, people like HTC, Motorola etc. who have been making phones for eons compared to Apple, would have actually far more substantial patents related to mobile phones, to put them in a better position to negotiate with Nokia if it hadnt happended already (HINT: thats probably why they werent targeted in the same suit).

Sorry but this really does see like a case of playground : "they did it too!!"-style finger pointing.

P.S. Apple hasnt managed to get a single Android manufacturer to settle yet. Whilst Im sure more than a few judges' eyebrows were raised at the latest iOS Notification system to come out of Cupertino

 

[ModerateFKR]

Finnish brick maker Nokia just got a $608 million cash injection from Apple. Whilst this looks like a victory for Nokia and a defeat for Apple, it's neither.

Per unit sale it's peanuts for Apple and a large cash boost for Nokia. But it won't help Nokia and Apple won't miss it. Long term, all that's happening is that Apple are paying for the intellectual property owned by Nokia that Apple have already been using for about 4 years - without paying for it!

If Apple, who can afford to argue for years and years if they want to [see previous Apple corp saga], decide to end a dispute, you can bet two things, it wasn't worth fighting, and Apple came out on top.

So, to arrive at that per unit sale price/hit Apple is experiencing, divide $608 million by the total number of iPhone sales. The result will be cents.

Nokia will put that $608 million into R&D, come up with more bricks and continue to fail as a smart phone manufacturer.

Posted for the second time due to someone deleting it the first time.

 

[John Dillinger]

No, there is no an updated suit, there is ANOTHER suit.

So, no, it's not correct.

But the original question you facd was about ESENTIAL patents, so, do you still think other companies like Motorola, Samsung or HTC doesn't have any license?

And, wait, do you think Nokia doesn't have licensed anything from Motorola?

Exactly. Thats what some dont understand.

These other companies have all been playing ball long before Apple even thought about entering the phone business. Its rather absurd to think that either of these parties would have entered licensing before now.

Like licensing was thought up the minute Apple showed up on the scene