Apple's Nokia Deal Could Cost Android Manufacturers Too

[gkpm]

Nokia said virtually all cell phone vendors have licensed Nokia technology. Has nokia sued samsung, motorola or LG? There's your proof right there.

That's no proof.

Nokia might just be considering if those other manufacturers don't have bigger things to retaliate with. After all they all have been making mobile phones for a long time, haven't they...

Also why is Google so desperately bidding for Nortel's 3G patents? Maybe leverage for the Open Handset Alliance?

 

[vladi]

This guy has no clue what he is talking about unless he has an inside info of what Apple vs Nokia dispute was all about and complete look into all Nokia agreements with other manufacturers.

 

[gkpm]

Please, you are spreading rubbish

Those are the TEN esential pattents Nokia sued for against Apple:

All of them are radio hardware related.

Read first, then comment with a littl knowledge, not like now.

I was now going through the list patents you posted from the US court filing and just noticed most (if not all) of them are actually software patents.

Do you even know the difference? Yes they are related to radio, but describe methods and algorithms by which the software codes and displays information (like signal measurement). Those are software patents.

But thanks for strengthening my point. I should have used your list instead.

 

[gnasher729]

Here's my take on why they say Google may be at risk...

The person making the claim is Florian Müller. You can stop reading when you read that name. Florian Müller is a hired gun for Microsoft. He gets told what to say directly by Microsoft. The reason why he says that Google must be at risk is because Microsoft wants people to believe that Google is at risk, or might do something they shouldn't.

And in this case, like in many other cases, he is talking nonsense. There are plenty of companies having patents in the GSM space, and everyone is licensing them. Apple and Nokia was a very special case where one patent holder and one licensee couldn't agree about the terms. At the same time Apple has already been paying patent license fees to other GSM patent holders where they didn't disagree with the terms, and every phone manufacturer must have patent licenses from all these patent holders.

There are two possibilities only with these licenses: You either have all the licenses you need, or you are in court. If Google, or more likely the phone manufacturers, didn't have all the licenses they needed, they would have been in court for a long time.

 

[Popeye206]

The person making the claim is Florian Müller. You can stop reading when you read that name. Florian Müller is a hired gun for Microsoft. He gets told what to say directly by Microsoft. The reason why he says that Google must be at risk is because Microsoft wants people to believe that Google is at risk, or might do something they shouldn't.

And in this case, like in many other cases, he is talking nonsense. There are plenty of companies having patents in the GSM space, and everyone is licensing them. Apple and Nokia was a very special case where one patent holder and one licensee couldn't agree about the terms. At the same time Apple has already been paying patent license fees to other GSM patent holders where they didn't disagree with the terms, and every phone manufacturer must have patent licenses from all these patent holders.

There are two possibilities only with these licenses: You either have all the licenses you need, or you are in court. If Google, or more likely the phone manufacturers, didn't have all the licenses they needed, they would have been in court for a long time.

All I'm saying is... I doubt anyone here really knows. And... I think you're wrong... if Apple and Google are in violation, you put your efforts on one first. If you win, then you essentially win both.

In cases like this it would make sense that Nokia would focus on one or the other first. Apple being the obvious choice because Apple has IP to barter that Nokia wanted. So now that the patent has been validated, if Google does not have a license they will have little choice but to negotiate and pay.

Now... with all that said... I'm talking about strategy and not necessarily reality. I hear what you're saying about Muller. I'm not saying he's right. But I will say NO ONE HERE REALLY KNOWS what licenses are in place and what they cover. So... if... IF Muller is right (which I doubt too), we'll know soon as Google will be next if they don't have a license.

I just think it's funny that so many here are talking like they know for sure what others have and don't have.

 

[PlipPlop]

We all know nothing can stop the dominating power of Android. Move along please.

 

[kdarling]

All I'm saying is... I doubt anyone here really knows. And... I think you're wrong... if Apple and Google are in violation, you put your efforts on one first. If you win, then you essentially win both.

Google doesn't make phones.

HTC, Samsung, LG and others have been making GSM phones for at least a decade. It's an overwhelmingly good bet that they are already licensed with Nokia.

For that matter, Nokia is just one of many that require licenses. Phone makers also must deal with Ericsson, Broadcom, Qualcomm, and others for communications.

Then there's royalties for Visual Voice Mail (yes, Apple pays for that, too, since they didn't invent it), camera related patents, browser related patents (Apple didn't invent double-click web zoom either), power saving patents and so forth.

All told, perhaps $30 of a smartphone's cost can be in royalties alone.

That's one reason Nokia has a good partner with Microsoft. MS has cross licenses with most everyone, including the huge Nortel patent pool that's being auctioned off.

 

[gkpm]

Google doesn't make phones.

No, but they write the software for them.

Why else would they be bidding for Nortel's patents then. They are also worried.

The mobile world is not static, patents are coming out all the time. Nokia has some old patents, but some new as well.

We don't know if the major players have licensed everything they need.

For all we know Nokia might be calling them right now and saying:
"Hey [HTC/Samsung/Motorola/...] remember those patents you didn't think applied to you? Well they do and we even bent Apple over to pay for them. Yes, that's how good we are.

Should we invoice you now at a special offer price or would you like the "Apple treatment" as well?"

 

[John Dillinger]

Something else that I dont get from the article, and some comments is this:
"Other companies, notably Android handset manufacturers, may now have to play ball with Nokia on these patents -- and they don't necessarily have the margins to send 1% of gross revenues to Nokia as easily as Apple can. "

I mean this isnt regresseive taxation-- 1% is 1%... so if these other manufacturers dont have the revenues... they will be paying less in comparison and no more as a percentage of their earnings?

If I earn $100 and have to pay 1% I pay.. 1$
If I earn $1,000,000 I pay $10,000.

I dont see how it hurts the little guy more except if as the florian guy is hoping, they negotiate worse terms. but otherwise... wtf?

 

[KnightWRX]

No, but they write the software for them.

Why else would they be bidding for Nortel's patents then. They are also worried.

The mobile world is not static, patents are coming out all the time. Nokia has some old patents, but some new as well.

We don't know if the major players have licensed everything they need.

For all we know Nokia might be calling them right now and saying:
"Hey [HTC/Samsung/Motorola/...] remember those patents you didn't think applied to you? Well they do and we even bent Apple over to pay for them. Yes, that's how good we are.

Should we invoice you now at a special offer price or would you like the "Apple treatment" as well?"

Look up what are patent pools and who participates in them and why they exist. It's to avoid your fictional ridiculous scenario. Apple was one of the last players to not license the stuff from Nokia, anything else is FUD.

And FUD is something Florian Mueller excels at. You're just helping him spread it.

 

[kdarling]

So if a company doesn't have patents they're willing to cross license, then they must pay Nokia more???!

This reasoning sure sounds familiar.

Yes, you've got it right. This is how _all_ business works. Why do you see this difficult to understand or unfear?

Thanks! I understand it fully. It's my fault that you missed the point, as I mistakenly assumed most people had read all my previous posts on the topic.

I was expressing my amusement at an article that predicted other companies with less IP would have to pay more, right after a whole year of previous articles crying foul that Apple might have to do the same, for the same reason.

Cheers!

 

[Oletros]

I was now going through the list patents you posted from the US court filing and just noticed most (if not all) of them are actually software patents.

Do you even know the difference? Yes they are related to radio, but describe methods and algorithms by which the software codes and displays information (like signal measurement). Those are software patents.

But thanks for strengthening my point. I should have used your list instead.

I give up.

Yes, you're totally righ, Apple has licensed all 46 patents. All the other manufacturers must pay Nokia because they doesn't pay anything and all the patents are software patents.

Satisfied?

When there is no filing against any of those companies what you will say?

Au dios

 

[Oletros]

Look up what are patent pools and who participates in them and why they exist. It's to avoid your fictional ridiculous scenario. Apple was one of the last players to not license the stuff from Nokia, anything else is FUD.

And FUD is something Florian Mueller excels at. You're just helping him spread it.

Don't waste your time trying to argue with him

 

[John Dillinger]

No, but they write the software for them.

Why else would they be bidding for Nortel's patents then. They are also worried.

The mobile world is not static, patents are coming out all the time. Nokia has some old patents, but some new as well.

We don't know if the major players have licensed everything they need.

For all we know Nokia might be calling them right now and saying:
"Hey [HTC/Samsung/Motorola/...] remember those patents you didn't think applied to you? Well they do and we even bent Apple over to pay for them. Yes, that's how good we are.

Should we invoice you now at a special offer price or would you like the "Apple treatment" as well?"

You seem to be hoping against hope.

These 'new' unknown patents that Nokia may or may not have are NOT the ones they just sued Apple for. So that whole argument is moot.

They havent set any precedent for those patents by winning this case.
In other words if Nokia did decide to sue and win.. well Apple would be liable just like the rest of manufacturers.

 

[gkpm]

Look up what are patent pools and who participates in them and why they exist. It's to avoid your fictional ridiculous scenario. Apple was one of the last players to not license the stuff from Nokia, anything else is FUD.

And FUD is something Florian Mueller excels at. You're just helping him spread it.

So you seem to know which patent pools all major Android manufacturers participate in? Plus Nokia? If so, very good, look forward to you listing them in a future post.

None of this is FUD at all, if you haven't noticed everyone in the mobile industry is either suing, already settled or licensed often after legal threats, so your patent pool concept isn't as tight as you'd hope.

Nokia moving on to shake a few more manufacturers out of their change - for patents that were less solid in the past - would not be surprising at all.

I give up. Yes, you're totally righ, Apple has licensed all 46 patents. All the other manufacturers must pay Nokia because they doesn't pay anything and all the patents are software patents.

Satisfied?

No, because not all the patents mentioned are not software patents. There's both kinds.

Look if you don't even know what a software patent is, why exactly are you posting in a position of knowledge?

You obviously don't know a lot about it.

hese 'new' unknown patents that Nokia may or may not have are NOT the ones they just sued Apple for. So that whole argument is moot.

You misunderstood the "new", what I meant is there are patents more recent than the old GSM stuff that companies may have licensed in the past. I mean how popular where on-screen keyboards with key zoom effects before Apple came along?

There simply weren't that many manufacturers using them. Most were pen interfaces that didn't need those things.

Apple has settled these now. Have the others? We simply don't know.

I can't understand how all three of you seem to be claiming they are, but yet only have very incomplete facts to support it.

I know some of you have some sort of personal hatred for Florian Mueller, but to reject this article based on his name alone is just as bad as some of his actions you complain about.

 

[Oletros]

You obviously don't know a lot about it.

Right, the only one which knows anything about everything is you

 

[John Dillinger]

You misunderstood the "new", what I meant is there are patents more recent than the old GSM stuff that companies may have licensed in the past. I mean how popular where on-screen keyboards with key zoom effects before Apple came along?

There simply weren't that many manufacturers using them. Most were pen interfaces that didn't need those things.

Apple has settled these now. Have the others? We simply don't know.

I can't understand how all three of you seem to be claiming they are, but yet only have very incomplete facts to support it.I know some of you have some sort of personal hatred for Florian Mueller, but to reject this article based on his name alone is just as bad as some of his actions you complain about.

Arstechnica, a pretty reputable source, state: "Nokia originally sued Apple in October 2009, claiming the company refused to negotiate licensing of Nokia's extensive portfolio of cellular technology patents"... the suit is about wireless tech and is not related to OS.. pinching to zoom or icons any crap that Apple is suing for. It is fundamentals of a wireless phone that is highly likely that other players, who been in the market a long time, would have likely licensed/cross licensed.

Ars also disagrees that Android manufacturers would next be a target as a result of this case. They refuted it in one line as the (most likely) bs that it is.

Again, the other hardware manufacturers who have been producing phones for a long time and competing with Nokia, would have had to settle a long time ago. Or built up their own patents with which to negotiate/cross license.

It makes no sense whatsover for Nokia to go after Apple first, who i remind are the most loaded company in tech, if they had equal dirt on the others...

If you look at this logically, the answer is either they have already paid/licensed... OR they hold patents that dissuaded Nokia from even bothering to try litigate.. regards these particular patents.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

No, but they write the software for them.

Why else would they be bidding for Nortel's patents then. They are also worried.

The mobile world is not static, patents are coming out all the time. Nokia has some old patents, but some new as well.

We don't know if the major players have licensed everything they need.

For all we know Nokia might be calling them right now and saying:
"Hey [HTC/Samsung/Motorola/...] remember those patents you didn't think applied to you? Well they do and we even bent Apple over to pay for them. Yes, that's how good we are.

Should we invoice you now at a special offer price or would you like the "Apple treatment" as well?"

Google does not write the phone signal part. That is provided and handle by the carriers and hardware manufacturers. It is proprietary to each carrier and manufacturer.

 

[KnightWRX]

None of this is FUD at all,

Yes it is FUD. If you knew what FUD meant, you'd know why this is FUD. You are Uncertain of everything you say and speculate to spread a Doubt in our minds that other players in the industry aren't properly licensed. All this speculation leads to Fear.

Do I need to spell it out more clearly now ?

Who do you think the 40 companies already licensing these patents from Nokia are exactly ?

 

[gkpm]

Right, the only one which knows anything about everything is you

Absolutely not, and I know that, that's why I find out what things actually are before posting. I know, with three critics at the same time it's hard. But hey I survived my PhD thesis committee, so this is a doodle.

Arstechnica, a pretty reputable source, state: "Nokia originally sued Apple in October 2009, claiming the company refused to negotiate licensing of Nokia's extensive portfolio of cellular technology patents"... the suit is about wireless tech and is not related to OS.. pinching to zoom or icons any crap that Apple is suing for.

That was the initial suit in the US court, however Nokia followed on with further suits around the world and two complaints to the International Trade Commission, claiming infringement on a range of other patents including user interface topics, camera, etc. I've described this in my previous posts here!

Also note the initial "wireless tech" suit included things like representing the signal level (ie bars)

Google does not write the phone signal part. That is provided and handle by the carriers and hardware manufacturers. It is proprietary to each carrier and manufacturer.

And that's probably why Nokia filed on the next suits and complaints including patents all over the operation of the phone, not just signal tech.

I'm also unsure Google has not worked on the signal part, since they are bidding for Nortel 3G and 4G patents now? If they had no interest in the signal part why would they do so?

Yes it is FUD. If you knew what FUD meant, you'd know why this is FUD. You are Uncertain of everything you say and speculate to spread a Doubt in our minds that other players in the industry aren't properly licensed. All this speculation leads to Fear.

Do I need to spell it out more clearly now ?

Who do you think the 40 companies already licensing these patents from Nokia are exactly ?

LOL, thanks for teaching what FUD is, I never imagined. Hopefully you'll know what sarcasm is. Maybe you wish to go on the journey of defining what "fear" is and how it applies in this case?

I simply can't see anything we should be afraid of? Seems clear my iPhone is not going anywhere. Do you work for any of the mobile companies that may be affected? If so as you seem to think they're properly licensed you'll be fine, don't worry.

As for the 40 companies, I have no clue, but neither do you. For all I know that number could have dozens of smaller R&D companies Nokia created with their massive budget.

 

[Themaeds]

I need more popcorn.... all the arm chair lawyers and patent experts on this forum is amazing.

Apple really should just come here for advice and skip legal council.

hahaha I know, I've never seen so many people that think they are in the Apple war room sitting next to El Stevarino

 

[London Lad]

Anyway, lets hope that a bit of cooperation between Apple and Nokia paves the way for us to get rSAP on the iPhone so we can use the full feature set in more modern cars

 

[gkpm]

Anyway, lets hope that a bit of cooperation between Apple and Nokia paves the way for us to get rSAP on the iPhone so we can use the full feature set in more modern cars

LOL unlikely. Bluetooth is a dead end. You could have AirSIM I guess, but I think Apple was more interested in having the iPhone also handle the user interface part in cars, so maybe some sort of Air iPod Out?

One thing is almost certain however, you'll need to buy a new car.

 

[London Lad]

LOL unlikely. Bluetooth is a dead end. You could have AirSIM I guess, but I think Apple was more interested in having the iPhone also handle the user interface part in cars, so maybe some sort of Air iPod Out?

One thing is almost certain however, you'll need to buy a new car.

rSAP is effectively 'air sim' and my car already has it, I just need the iPhone to catch up !

 

[KnightWRX]

LOL, thanks for teaching what FUD is, I never imagined. Hopefully you'll know what sarcasm is. Maybe you wish to go on the journey of defining what "fear" is and how it applies in this case?

I simply can't see anything we should be afraid of? Seems clear my iPhone is not going anywhere. Do you work for any of the mobile companies that may be affected? If so as you seem to think they're properly licensed you'll be fine, don't worry.

Fear in this case is implying that other manufacturers would face added licensing cost above what they already pay, which would result in added costs for the consumer or "problems" in profitability for said manufacturers. Which is what Florian Mueller is claiming and what you are implying.

Do we really need to explain every point to you, you really can't figure out any of this on your own ?

As for the 40 companies, I have no clue, but neither do you. For all I know that number could have dozens of smaller R&D companies Nokia created with their massive budget.

And again, what about the fact that all Android players, HTC, LG, Motorola, Samsung, Sony Ericsson having been in the mobile industry for over a decade doesn't catch on with you ? Apple wasn't the first Nokia was going after, so why would Nokia have left these players alone ?

You don't know, I don't know. But : people like me who claim these guys are licensed have a much better leg to stand on than you and Florian do in your claims.

As such, stop spreading FUD. Until Nokia files a lawsuit, nothing is going to happen to the Android manufacturers. Stating otherwise is again : Fear Uncertainty Doubt.