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Are these hardware or software patents? We may never know. As a programmer software patents are horrible. They are usually vague and stifle creativity. Two different people can achieve something with software that under the hood is totally different. Trademarks and copyrights on code are enough to stop plagiarism. This situation is unlikely to change since most corporations are in a prisoners dilemma with their patent portfolio. Take as many patents as you can to avoid being sued by those who did take lots of patents.

software like wireless data, speech coding, security and encryption etc..
 
Apple sued over location tracking

Ball's in your corner again, buddy.
^^^
That story was posted already and I responded to it. Please keep up.

take a closer look. While it may look like it often times it is shots across the bow but not head on.

ten-oak-druid for example hates android and pretty much just attacks it no matter how much miss information is in there.
^^^
I don't hate Android. And I'm perfectly capable of criticizing Apple. But of course there are so many people who come here with a preconceived notion of "Apple fanboys" and well I just feel it would blow their world view if no one played the part. I like to think they sleep better at night trusting their world view is intact.

But lets be honest here. I don't have time for all the malware on Windows and now Android. It just isn't worth it to me.
 
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nice headline grabbing BS by our media. It is safe to bet that the other manufactures were already paying the for the patents. I know LG, HTC, Samsung, Motorola, and Blackberry already have an agreement with them and most of them have patents sharing with Nokia.

I love the piss poor reporting the media does.

Really? What proof of these royalty payments by ALL of competing manufacturers are paying Nokia?
 
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Mobile/8J2)

supmango said:
From the same article:

“Having proven its ability to defeat Apple after the most bitterly contested patent dispute that this industry has seen to date is clear proof of” the effectiveness of Nokia's more aggressive strategy, Mr. Mueller said. “Other companies whom Nokia will ask to pay royalties will have to think very hard whether to pay or pick a fight."

So it sounds like to me, Nokia just became the school yard bully.

If Nokia invested the time into R&D and patent something new, it's right to get what they are owed. But man Nokia is going down the gurgler soon. Apple will probably buy them out and get all the intellectual property at the end of the day.
 
nice headline grabbing BS by our media. It is safe to bet that the other manufactures were already paying the for the patents. I know LG, HTC, Samsung, Motorola, and Blackberry already have an agreement with them and most of them have patents sharing with Nokia.
...

Really? What proof of these royalty payments by ALL of competing manufacturers are paying Nokia?

I believe that Nokia themselves says that 40 manufacturers are paying.

So to answer your question directly, there is no proof that ALL competitors are paying Nokia. But it probably would be safe to say that if indeed, there are 40 payers, then most or all the above mentioned big companies are probably among them.
 
nice headline grabbing BS by our media. It is safe to bet that the other manufactures were already paying the for the patents. I know LG, HTC, Samsung, Motorola, and Blackberry already have an agreement with them and most of them have patents sharing with Nokia.

I love the piss poor reporting the media does.

I'm sure a good reporter got all the data right. Then his boss, the uber-reporters who knows the agenda of the board members of said media group, hacked the article to where anything said will not compromise media group board members portfolio.

Yes, those corner office talks are interesting. Stick with media that refuses to spike stories based on advertisers threats to drop an account. The Internet is making guys like this modern day heroes. Eventually everyone will see the emperor has no clothes in the boardroom.
 
But man Nokia is going down the gurgler soon. Apple will probably buy them out and get all the intellectual property at the end of the day.


Keep in mind that Nokia is a socialist puppet of Finland. They are just moving to another industry. They are just soon to be out of the cell phone business if they don't get their third world welfare soon.
 
It was a press release. Press release is not going to include it. Also often times there are agreements between companies not to publicly release names of who is licencing the tech.

Rodimus, don't bother. You've made your point already. If a person still want's to argue with such arguments, let him ;)
 
Rodimus, don't bother. You've made your point already. If a person still want's to argue with such arguments, let him ;)

Yeah I have kind of given up. If people want to be mindless drones and can not accept the fact that this article is beyond BS then there is not much I can do for them. The logic was laid out.

You can lead a horse to water but if they are to dumb to drink well ....

you know glue factory.
 
*laughing*

Wait a second...

So if a company doesn't have patents they're willing to cross license, then they must pay Nokia more???!

This reasoning sure sounds familiar.

Yes, you've got it right. This is how _all_ business works. Why do you see this difficult to understand or unfear?

A person has an apple (the fruit or money or own patents to license), another person has an iPhone 4 (own patents to license) and a third one has two Macbook Air's (patents to license).

They make business because the first two want or need to have a Macbook Air from the third one.

The first one makes a deal to give the third one the apple for the Air, the second one makes a deal to to the third one the iPhone for the Air.

Does it work? Yes its does if the apple and the iPhone and the Air are equal in value. Since they most likely are not, the deal is more likely something else than just a straight forward swap. Perhaps something like this (provided that the Air is the most valuable item in the deal):

The first one gives the apple + x $ to the third one and get's the Air.
The second one gives the iPhone + y $ to the third one and get's the Air.
 
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This Florian Mueller guy (whoever he is?) doesnt sound very professional using phrases such as ripped off :rolleyes:
 
Are these hardware or software patents? We may never know. As a programmer software patents are horrible. They are usually vague and stifle creativity. Two different people can achieve something with software that under the hood is totally different. Trademarks and copyrights on code are enough to stop plagiarism. This situation is unlikely to change since most corporations are in a prisoners dilemma with their patent portfolio. Take as many patents as you can to avoid being sued by those who did take lots of patents.

I don't distinguish between software and hardware patents. I distinguish between patent trolls and genuine patents. A patent troll has a patent that I have absolutely no interest in, where I could do exactly the same things whether that patent exists or not, and where I am forced to pay not because of the value of the invention, but because of patent law. Genuine patents are those where my stuff wouldn't work if the invention hadn't been made. Without these Nokia patents, mobile phones wouldn't work. As a counter example, if the Lodsys patents didn't exist, Apple would have written exactly the same software, and whatever Lodsys sues developers for would work exactly the same.
 
If Apple gets off with such a huge sum with SJ's awesome negotiations, I wonder how the other manufacturers will fare.
 
******* Florian Müller.

Real mature.

Really guys, when you read the name Florian Müller you should automatically keep it away from MacRumors. The guy is a paid mouthpiece for Microsoft and nothing else.

Great assumptions.

Whatever he says you can be sure that he paints the bleakest picture possible for any Microsoft competitor. Google and anything related to Google is top of his hitlist because at the moment Google looks even more threatening to Microsoft than Apple does, but that can change any moment when he gets different instructions from his paymasters.

That's true but I don't see any reason why he would be bothered.

This site is supposed to be about rumours. I don't mind a bit of actual fact in between the rumours :D but paid disinformation doesn't belong here.

May be the whole news is wrong and baseless, but it's a good rumour anyway. ;)

"Good coverage"? Florian Müller is the one who advises iOS developers to suck it up and pay the patent trolls. And Android developers should do the same.

I can quote a number of people who said 'paying up' was better than kind of litigation whatsoever.
If I remember right, Marco Arment suggested all developers pay and be happy. Maybe that was a short term solution but was indeed the right thing to do if Apple didn't play the game. Even JohnGruber suggested that Litigation can be a big pain and one can suffer a lot.

I don't see anything wrong with his suggession. Like many others, no one knew that Apple was gonna step in, the way things turned out.

Look, when there is a history of one article after the other by the same author spewing misinformation, by an author who has actually no qualifications whatsoever, and each single article is attacking Microsoft competitors, and in many cases making exactly the same statements that Microsoft makes officially at the same time, then an attack on the person is not "ad hominem" anymore.

Provide links so even I can understand that?

And when I strongly agree with Rodimus Prime, as I do on this point, you can safely assume that he is correct.

Maybe he is, but I think he is too short tempered and abusive some times.
 
The patents are described in Nokia filing, they're hardware patents

No they are not. There's software patents as well. Stop spreading rubbish.

For example one of the patents is on "Mobile Station with Touch Input Having Automatic Symbol Magnification Function,"

Which is how the iPhone zooms in on the key when you press it on the virtual keyboard. That's a software patent.

See the actual filing here: http://tinyurl.com/yd4rcop (you have to register with the ITC, but it's free)
 
No they are not. There's software patents as well. Stop spreading rubbish.

For example one of the patents is on "Mobile Station with Touch Input Having Automatic Symbol Magnification Function,"

Which is how the iPhone zooms in on the key when you press it on the virtual keyboard. That's a software patent.

See the actual filing here: http://tinyurl.com/yd4rcop (you have to register with the ITC, but it's free)


Please, you are spreading rubbish

Those are the TEN esential pattents Nokia sued for against Apple:

1.) "Data Transmission in a Radio Telephone Network." (1998) Covers the formation of virtual data channel.
2.) "Data Transfer in a Mobile Telephone Network." (2002) A wireless patent which covers when a radio block is to be coded, and user data is transferred in octet form to simplify flow of data.
3.) "Measurement Report Transmission in a Telecommunications System." (2004) This lets mobile devices respond to polling codes that indicate the condition of that device.
4.) "Access Channel for Reduced Access Delay in a Telecommunications System." (2004) A UMTS patent where access requests are adjusted based on channel conditions.
5.)"Reporting Cell Measurement Results in a Cellular Communications System." (2006) This "enables a mobile device to report an increased number of signal quality measurements to a mobile network."
6.) "Method and Apparatus for Speech Transmission." (1998) This lets multiple speech coding methods to be used at different transmission rates for 2 stage channel encoding.
7.) "Speech Synthesizer Employing Post-Processing for Enhancing the Quality of the Synthesized Speech." (1999) This is a postfilter processing technology for clearer voice calls.
8.) "Method of Ciphering Data Transmission in a Radio System." (2005) This covers a UMTS cyphering alogrithm with a channel specific parameter among its inputs.
9.) "Integrity Check in a Communications System." (2006) A UMTS integrity algorithm calculated from values including channel identity information.
10.) "System for Ensuring Encrypted Communication after Handover." (2008) This allows for secure handoffs with an encryption algorithms supported by a mobile station between radio access networks.

All of them are radio hardware related.

Herre the complaint filing:

http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/ne/pdfs/complaint.pdf

Read first, then comment with a littl knowledge, not like now.
 
Exchange is still payment...

Cross licensing... it appears Nokia is payin Apple nothing. They settled, and Apple it appears will pay a sum up front then a few 100 million quarterly to Nokia.
The cross licensing part is that Nokia, instead of taking payment for some patents, will just exchange usage rights for some of Apples.

Though you do have a point in that Nokia did license some of Apple patents given them at least some validity. Then again... it may end up being the same story for Apple with the others they have sued... ie cross licensing and thats it.

Sorry John, but any way you look at it, cross licensing is still paying! There may not be actual money changing hands but it's just the old barter system, you give me something, I'll give you something. We are both "paying" in the end. Although Apple is paying Nokia a boatload more for sure.

On your second point, I don't think the other manufacturers involved in suits with Apple have anything substantial to cross license! I may be wrong... The other suits seem to me to be against the copying of the touch interface, the software and the case design rather than the internal engineering as in the Nokia one.

Outside of the 3G/Network engineering stuff, the iPhone is not just a phone, and this is the "unique" thing about it, this is what Apple are trying to protect from people like Samsung, HTC etc.

Now while they probably will not be able to stop these other companies making phones which look and act like the iPhone, they should be able to get the others to pay them for every phone sold [including past offerings] which infringe the Apple held patents, just like Nokia did.

I guess we'll have to wait and see...
 
I believe that Nokia themselves says that 40 manufacturers are paying.

So to answer your question directly, there is no proof that ALL competitors are paying Nokia. But it probably would be safe to say that if indeed, there are 40 payers, then most or all the above mentioned big companies are probably among them.

Here's my take on why they say Google may be at risk... the patents in question must be a OS function that was in violation. If it was a hardware thing, like involving the 3G chip, then wouldn't the creator of the 3G chip already have the patent license and Apple would have been covered since they OEM the chip. So, conclusion, it's a software interaction violation.

Given this, yes, Moto, Samsung, etc. probably do have a license for their other OS's. But maybe Google never got one for Android and the licenses that Moto and the gang have don't cover Android. If this is the case, then Android devices would be liable for the licensing.

All the arguments here seem to be based on two things... one is assumption that the other hardware guys have this covered and two that depending on which article you want to believe (the one that best supports your belief) is the one that is accurate.

Given I don't think anyone here is a director or VP with Moto, Samsung, HTC or whoever... none of you really know for sure what licenses they hold. And for that matter, neither do the writers or people who have made these claims.

So, I guess we'll know if Google or the others are served soon by Nokia since now they have a very strong patent to defend and if there is no license that covers Android.... they will be in a bad position.
 
Please, you are spreading rubbish

Those are the TEN esential pattents Nokia sued for against Apple:

That's only one part of the complaints Nokia filed against Apple. That's only the US court patent suit.

There have been patent suits filed in the US, Germany, UK and the Netherlands courts and two complaints to the International Trade Commission (ITC).

The one I posted is Nokia's first complaint to the ITC.

There's no difference in essentiality or not, there were a total of 46 patents claimed to be infringed in the whole set of suits and complaints Nokia filed against Apple. All these have now been settled.

Not all of them were hardware unlike you were implying.

For reference the ITC complaint I linked to covers these Nokia patents:

** SOFTWARE ** U.S. Patent No. 6,073,036, "Mobile Station with Touch Input Having Automatic Symbol Magnification Function,"

** SOFTWARE ** U.S. Patent No. 6,262,735, "Utilizing the Contents of a Message,"

U.S. Patent No. 6,714,091, "VCO With Programmable Output Power"

U.S. Patent No. 6,34,181, "Mobile Communication Device and Related Construction Method"

U.S. Patent No. 6,895,256, "Optimized Camera Sensor Architecture for a Mobile Telephone"

U.S. Patent No. 6,518,957, "Communications Device with Touch Sensitive Screen"

U.S. Patent No. 6,924,789, "User Interface Device,"

Full complaint at the ITC (minus the confidental parts) http://tinyurl.com/yd4rcop

Question is are other manufacturers licensed for all these patents as well. Eg the keyboard one.
Unfortunately the licensee list for these patents included in the ITC complaint is confidential.
 
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Can you actually prove the others have licensed these patents?

I strongly doubt that any of those major others would be members of ETSI GSM standardization body without paying the licenses. Unless you are a member too (through your organization) I'm afraid you just have to trust this is the case since the hard evidence is burried in those docs and I simply cannot copy the details here.
 
I strongly doubt that any of those major others would be members of ETSI GSM standardization body without paying the licenses. Unless you are a member too (through your organization) I'm afraid you just have to trust this is the case since the hard evidence is burried in those docs and I simply cannot copy the details here.

Why are people insisting the 46 infringed patents just cover aspects of GSM?

They don't: there's software, there's a touchscreen patent, camera sensors, plus others completely unrelated to GSM standards.

See my post above for examples.
 
My original question was for proof that other manufacturers had already licensed the same patents as Apple, which would disprove Florian Mueller story.

Nokia said virtually all cell phone vendors have licensed Nokia technology. Has nokia sued samsung, motorola or LG? There's your proof right there.
 
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