Apple's Phil Schiller Explains Why Valve's Steam Link App Was Rejected

[Radon87000]

A) What would you say about asset flips?
B) Keyboard and Mouse are rather ***** for a large number of AAA games these days. Or are you going to tell me that you played Shadow of Mordor with a mouse and keyboard?

A)I don't know what asset flips are so I won't discuss this particular aspect. In the past few years I have dealt with Steam, they have refunded me any game I played, no questions asked, and I personally didn't have an issue with each.
It's pretty much the only store which has the maximum number of games. There is GMG,GOG and Origin but I always find games overpriced on it.

B)Haven't played that game but I mostly play Prey,Doom, Battlefield,Assassins Creed, Far Cry, Need for Speed, GTA, Witcher and all these games were enjoyable with a KB/M combo to me.

 

[Michael Goff]

A)I don't know what asset flips are so I won't discuss this particular aspect. In the past few years I have dealt with Steam, they have refunded me any game I played, no questions asked, and I personally didn't have an issue with each.
It's pretty much the only store which has the maximum number of games. There is GMG,GOG and Origin but I always find games overpriced on it.

B)Haven't played that game but I mostly play Prey,Doom, Battlefield,Assassins Creed, Far Cry, Need for Speed, GTA, Witcher and all these games were enjoyable with a KB/M combo to me.

Asset Flips and the lack of quality control are really my two main complaints. I could point you toward videos that tell you what asset flips are if you’d like?

 

[Radon87000]

I wasn’t aware you could get a computer with a 970 for 500$ last year. Because if you read the entire post, that’s kind of what I was talking about.

I was suggesting a PC which will outlast the lifetime of any console. If it's able to play games like Tom Clancy Wildlands at medium/high settings at 1600P, it will last well into the next 10 years before we reach comcole settings at 720P.

If all you want is a PC for around the price of a console, you can still build one.

https://www.xtremegaminerd.com/build-a-500-killer-gaming-pc/

^It's updated for 2018. You also have the option to play in native resolution rather than upscaled and you can even mod games like Skyrim and Fallout.

I may be wrong here but console games are also more expensive than the PC equivalents at times. That adds to the cost.
[doublepost=1527399026][/doublepost]

Asset Flips and the lack of quality control are really my two main complaints. I could point you toward videos that tell you what asset flips are if you’d like?

Yes. Can you link me?

 

[Markoth]

Wow... that was an analogy... possibly even hyperbole.. I don't actually do this... are you sure you you aren't high?

And how is buying stuff through the amazon app different then buying a game through steam? Why do they allow that? They would if they could get away with it but there is no way anyone would find that acceptable. This isn't any different. Steam games are sold through steam for third parties.

Talk about slippery slope fallacy...

I don't know about you guys, but I am DEFINITELY high.

 

[Michael Goff]

I was suggesting a PC which will outlast the lifetime of any console. If it's able to play games like Tom Clancy Wildlands at medium/high settings at 1600P, it will last well into the next 10 years before we reach comcole settings at 720P.

If all you want is a PC for the price of a console, you can still build one.

https://www.xtremegaminerd.com/build-a-500-killer-gaming-pc/

^It's updated for 2018. You also have the option to play in native resolution rather than upscaled.
[doublepost=1527399026][/doublepost]
Yes. Can you link me?

Here’s one that touches on it while talking about an overall Direct issue:

Here’s some explaining what it is in general:

There is even a game on Steam called “Asset Flip Simulator”.

 

[DevNull0]

A) What would you say about asset flips?
B) Keyboard and Mouse are rather ***** for a large number of AAA games these days. Or are you going to tell me that you played Shadow of Mordor with a mouse and keyboard?

A) Asset flips are a major problem, but I mainly focus on AAA titles and games with a strong reputation outside of steam as well. It does kill the indie market for people who would otherwise be into that.

B) Aside from the fact that many games are better with a mouse and keyboard (CS:GO, Overwatch, Tropico, World of Warcraft, to name a few of the many, many examples), it's also true that many games are better with a controller. Personally I use wireless xbox 360 controllers with my PC and they work great. Steam makes their own controller of course, and PS4/XBOne controllers will work just fine with windows or steam link.

And steam link really is pointless without the controller support. Game that work better with mouse/keyboard I play at my desk with a 28" 4k monitor. Games that work better with a controller I play in my living room on the big screen TV over steam link.

 

[FoxMcCloud]

For those saying are Apple going to do this to Remote Desktop apps too?

No. When you look for and download a Remote Desktop app you know exactly what you’re getting. You’ve specifically got a Remote Desktop app.

This is a game streaming app, but Valve have disguised it as such when it’s actually a Remote Desktop app. That’s the crux. Valve stream the entire interface from the computer.

Why it can’t just be a native app that detects games installed and then streams the game, I don’t know. Valve are renowned for being lazy.

So it streams everything, store and all.

Perhaps Apple feel that there would be confusion with people if something is purchased that it’s not on the phone. When you get the Steam app or the Xbox app you know you’re only managing your account. But this app magically plays stuff too. It’s a slightly different ball game I guess.

Personally I think it should just be a native app that shows games that it detects from the steam PC and when you click them to play, that’s when the remote stream begins. In the same way that multiple PCs with Steam in the house work (the interface isn’t streamed). And have a link to buy new games that just hops you over to either the site or the Steam app if installed. Simple really

 

[Michael Goff]

A) Asset flips are a major problem, but I mainly focus on AAA titles and games with a strong reputation outside of steam as well. It does kill the indie market for people who would otherwise be into that.

B) Aside from the fact that many games are better with a mouse and keyboard (CS:GO, Overwatch, Tropico, World of Warcraft, to name a few of the many, many examples), it's also true that many games are better with a controller. Personally I use wireless xbox 360 controllers with my PC and they work great. Steam makes their own controller of course, and PS4/XBOne controllers will work just fine with windows or steam link.

And steam link really is pointless without the controller support. Game that work better with mouse/keyboard I play at my desk with a 28" 4k monitor. Games that work better with a controller I play in my living room on the big screen TV over steam link.

As a person who paid 40$ or so for the Steam Controller, it is not a high quality item. I recommend going with either the XBox or PS4 one over it. And I know there are a lot of games where mouse and keyboard reign supreme. FPS, Grand Strategy, 4X, and a lot of MMO are definitely better with M/K.

 

[alvindarkness]

Perhaps Apple feel that there would be confusion with people if something is purchased that it’s not on the phone. When you get the Steam app or the Xbox app you know you’re only managing your account. But this app magically plays stuff too. It’s a slightly different ball game I guess.

Maybe, but then why is the current Steam iOS app still available? You can browse their store on that also. If that were the case surely Apple would never have let that through either?

 

[vmistery]

Ah so they want a cut of the revenue for sales through steam, that ain’t happening. I’d be happy if it was Just able to stream the games, I don’t need the full steam experience. Whatever they do I’m unlikely to stop buying tv apps, equally I’m unlikely to stop using steam. If they start bringing out games for the tv that I play on steam then I’d see it as real competition.

 

[ersan191]

It is not incorrect. You need to do the proper setup. If you're lazy, it's your fault.

It's not about being lazy - there is literally no practical way to do it... This is all anyone has come up with https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/1/144513670977901288/

And it's convoluted and has a lot of caveats. Don't talk with confidence about things you know nothing about. It is absolutely not designed to work this way.

 

[Sedulous]

Does Apple get a cut of things I buy using the eBay app?

 

[T'hain Esh Kelch]

Phil Schiller during the interview, explaining why Apple pulled a competitors app:

 

[ersan191]

Maybe, but then why is the current Steam iOS app still available? You can browse their store on that also. If that were the case surely Apple would never have let that through either?

The theory is that the Steam app has flown under the radar, and it has not been updated since 2016 - probably before Apple started cracking down on that sort of thing.
[doublepost=1527402804][/doublepost]

Does Apple get a cut of things I buy using the eBay app?

Apple has plenty of developer guidelines about what apps must and must not use in-app purchases for: https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#in-app-purchase

Specifically to your point, no app is allowed to use in-app purchasing for the delivery of physical goods so no they do not.
[doublepost=1527403172][/doublepost]A lot of people are talking about this that don't seem to know anything about Steam or Big Picture or IHS

When you first connect to Steam via a Steam Link or the app, this is what it looks like:

It's that huge STORE button that Apple is not happy about. Valve can simply remove this entire section (and any deep links that point to it) and Apple will surely accept it into the App Store, all is not lost.

 

[AdonisSMU]

Time to open up iOS and let other stores in. Even if they had to split devices/iOS.

Have a Closed and Open version of the iOS and let the users/developers decide.

Apple has always been on the side of walled gardens but I am getting tired of it.

Put your money where your keyboard is.
[doublepost=1527403355][/doublepost]

The theory is that the Steam app has flown under the radar, and it has not been updated since 2016 - probably before Apple started cracking down on that sort of thing.
[doublepost=1527402804][/doublepost]
Apple has plenty of developer guidelines about what apps must and must not use in-app purchases for: https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#in-app-purchase

Specifically to your point, no app is allowed to use in-app purchasing for the delivery of physical goods so no they do not.
[doublepost=1527403172][/doublepost]A lot of people are talking about this that don't seem to know anything about Steam or Big Picture or IHS

When you first connect to Steam via a Steam Link or the app, this is what it looks like:

It's that huge STORE button that Apple is not happy about. Valve can simply remove this entire section (and any deep links that point to it) and Apple will surely accept it into the App Store, all is not lost.

Steam knew this but they wanted to poke the bear anyway. They got in a huff when Apple denied their app. Phil clearly stated that they violated the terms and conditions for using the App Store.

 

[ersan191]

Steam knew this but they wanted to poke the bear anyway. They got in a huff when Apple denied their app. Phil clearly stated that they violated the terms and conditions for using the App Store.

From what I understand they disabled the ability to purchase games when connecting via iOS/tvOS before they ever submitted it to Apple in the first place. The beta they had for testing on iOS/tvOS had purchasing disabled, it would tell you to go to your PC if you want to make a purchase (though it still allowed you to BROWSE the store). I think Apple is absolutely being unreasonable here.

 

[AdonisSMU]

From what I understand they disabled the ability to purchase games when connecting via iOS/tvOS before they ever submitted it to Apple in the first place. The beta they had for testing on iOS/tvOS had purchasing disabled. It would tell you to go to your PC if you want to make a purchase. I think Apple is absolutely being unreasonable here. It still did allow you to browse the store though.

I don't know if Apple is being unreasonable here. Phil clearly stated the App Store guidelines were not followed. It seems cut and dry to me. Apple has offered to help Steam get compliant with the rules. The rules apply to everyone even the big players.

 

[ersan191]

I don't know if Apple is being unreasonable here. Phil clearly stated the App Store guidelines were not followed. It seems cut and dry to me. Apple has offered to help Steam get compliant with the rules. The rules apply to everyone even the big players.

The argument that there are other apps that do the exact same thing that are allowed means the rules seem to only apply to the big players. I personally run Moonlight and have it setup to launch Steam in big picture mode after it connects, but they're not banning that.

Every single thin client/remote desktop app is violating the guidelines... They could theoretically be showing child pornography for all Apple knows. They have the potential to violate every single one of the app store guidelines simultaneously in fact, cherrypicking this app to ban is completely unreasonable especially when Valve made an effort to appease Apple by disabling purchases in the first place.

These arguments are pointless anyway since they seem to be working it out with Valve - I'm sure it's not their ideal scenario to remove the store but after all of this fuss they will.

 

[Arndroid]

Apple need Steam but Steam don't need Apple. Tread carefully Apple.

Lol wat
[doublepost=1527405016][/doublepost]

Okay, Mr. Schiller - the problem is that none of the reasons you’ve listed sounds remotely like a “business conflict”, but that’s the explanation you gave Steam when you rejected the app.

I am sensing the presence of “spin” here. Of course that’s generally the case when Phil Schiller weighs in on a topic, I realize. It seems pretty clear Apple is worried about Steam absolutely dominating a market Apple hasn’t really managed to develop (Apple TV games) and quite possibly establishing a strong competitive presence on iOS devices as well.

They are all business conflicts.
[doublepost=1527405196][/doublepost]

Steam Link is simply a remote desktop app. That’s it, that’s all it does. For Apple to block this but none of the other remote desktop apps already on the App Store is truly absurd.

I see this as an incredibly stupid move from Apple. It’s bone headed, tone deaf, and frankly toxic. Every time they pull a stunt like this which is so clearly against the interests of their own customers it defies logic. It’s truly idiotic.

I have an NVidia Shield TV as well as an Apple TV so I’ve used Steam Link a lot. To be frank, it’s laggy (even over a fully wired network) and not very impressive, but people should be able to find that out for themselves regardless of which box they own.

That is completely disingenuous and valve making that claim did them no favors. It in no way works like a full access Remote Desktop. It literally just streams steam games and nothing else. That is NOT a Remote Desktop client.

 

[ersan191]

Asset Flips and the lack of quality control are really my two main complaints. I could point you toward videos that tell you what asset flips are if you’d like?

I really don't know what you're complaining about - if someone is dumb enough to buy asset flips or shovelware then that's on them, and the fact that Steam has no-questions-asked refunds virtually eliminates the problem.

Steam does have curation and that's how the vast majority of people interact with it, since the curated lists are literally the home page. There is also a section actually called 'Recommended by Curators'. Unless you go out of your way to click something like "New Releases" and then off of the "Recommended" tab you aren't going to see most of the crap. It sorts search results by relevancy and does a pretty good job of it.

Every single store has the same issues - PSN, eShop, Google Play, even your precious App Store are all full of garbage that you can find if you take the time to look.

 

[Arndroid]

It’s a bit fuzzy. If I Remote Desktop to my PC and buy an app for the PC is that considered an in app purchase?

If that it’s their point of view it’s ridiculous. Sorry, absolutely ridiculous,

Are they going after all Remote Desktop apps? It’s not that Valve is offering a game streaming service like Play Station Now. That would be different, and in such context I would consider Apple point valid. But this is like Remote Desktop for games.

If it just allowed access to a single desktop app then yeah. Not sure why people are being obtuse.

 

[alexgowers]

I can guarantee steam wanted the full experience and included the ability to buy in game coins or something and Apple deemed because it wasn’t getting its % that it would reject it.

 

[Spendlove]

Please no one tell Apple that I use eBay, Amazon, Ali Express or any other of the million store apps to buy things from any of my Apple made devices or all of those apps will be banned as well.

 

[Sedulous]

The theory is that the Steam app has flown under the radar, and it has not been updated since 2016 - probably before Apple started cracking down on that sort of thing.
[doublepost=1527402804][/doublepost]
Apple has plenty of developer guidelines about what apps must and must not use in-app purchases for: https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#in-app-purchase

Specifically to your point, no app is allowed to use in-app purchasing for the delivery of physical goods so no they do not.
[doublepost=1527403172][/doublepost]A lot of people are talking about this that don't seem to know anything about Steam or Big Picture or IHS

When you first connect to Steam via a Steam Link or the app, this is what it looks like:

It's that huge STORE button that Apple is not happy about. Valve can simply remove this entire section (and any deep links that point to it) and Apple will surely accept it into the App Store, all is not lost.

Thanks for answer but it is still unclear to me. eBay (for example) is used to buy goods (both physical and services). eBay takes a cut of sales (as does PayPal) and in effect, this is also an “in-app” purchase. I am having difficulty understanding the difference between buying a game on eBay vs buying a game from Steam.

 

[Regime2008]

I’ve been looking in at Steam’s crap for years now. I’ve forgotten more about Steam’s bad policies than you probably know right now. And yay, two hours. You know what’s better? GoG, who also do a no question refund in the first thirty days.

I’ve dealt with more Steam asset flips than you’ve probably played games.
[doublepost=1527395065][/doublepost]

No, you really can’t.

I HIGHLY doubt you have more time and experience with steam than I do. Especially how you have been incorrect with just about everything related to steam. I have 100's of thousands of hours logged on to games, and many badges over the years that show my steam support.

Steam isn't just a store to purchase games from. There's so much more than that. I wouldn't even compare GOG to steam, although I have nothing against GOG.

Let's just drop this now as we won't get anywhere till one of us refreshes up on steam, no offense.